Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Foot Clan

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 10:14, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Foot Clan[edit]

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Unlikely notable. The entire article is just written as original research and has zero sources (2 cited source are dead). OnlyFixingProse (talk) 12:56, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Film, Comics and animation, Organizations, and Japan. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 14:20, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Shredder (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles) as non-notable by itself. It is the group the villain leads. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:22, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment @OnlyFixingProse: Before getting into that, could you perhaps do me a favor and let me know if you are familiar with the process required before nominating for deletion and if you have carried out the searches laid down there? Thanks a lot! Daranios (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find a reliable sources properly that talk about Foot clan. The entire article are just unsourced. OnlyFixingProse (talk) 22:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@OnlyFixingProse: Thanks and sorry to ask again, but I am not clear on this: Did you look only within the article, or did you also look for additional sources out there on the web along the avenues suggested by WP:BEFORE? Daranios (talk) 08:15, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did look on google search, but im having hard time finding a reliable source that talks about clan. But if you happen to find, the entire article shouldn't exist anyway as they are written as OR. OnlyFixingProse (talk) 10:47, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and improve, as there are secondary sources dealing with the topic. Critique on the current state of the article is well warranted, but summarizing from the primary sources is not original research. I am surprised that this paper, which does quite a bit of analysis on the foot clan/Shredder's "family", was not found in a proper WP:BEFORE search. In addition I've found this German book, which has a good paragraph of analysis on pages 124/125, fullfilling the miniumum requirement of WP:GNG. A short background bit can be found here. The current article can be used as a start, trimming plot summary, but keeping what amounts to the "publication history" of the Foot clan, and be improved with analysis from those sources - which in the end allow to fullfill both WP:WHYN and WP:ALLPLOT. Daranios (talk) 11:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Daranios's argument and their excellent effort with locating the relevant sources. The article's contents does need a WP:TNT with most of its in-universe content purged, but that doesn't mean a concisely-written page about the fictional organization can't stay in mainspace. Haleth (talk) 15:15, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Let this page stay. While it is a recurring villain organization that has fought the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I also agree with the claims of @Daranios: and @Haleth:. --Rtkat3 (talk) 17:59, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Interesting. I read the scholarly article found. The analysis contains: "The turtles, in opposition to the Ninja soldiers of Master Shredder's Foot Clan, internalize American ideals and assimilate cultural" and "In fact, its name-Foot Clan-and location-Little Tokyo- implies criticisms of "clannish-ness," a resistance to dispersion into the American community, and its refusal to sever-or at least modify- ties to Japan". The other times they are mentioned seem to be plot summary mentions. Overall, this is much better than I expected; sadly, I cannot verify what is written in the German book. If Daranios could be asked to add a sentence or two based on the German sources to the article, and given the short but not trivial analysis in the English article found, this, surprisingly enough, could be a keeper.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:45, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ps. Ping User:Daranios. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:45, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: I have a plan to do this, just don't know yet how soon. Daranios (talk) 11:25, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: I have now added what I wanted to add from the German source. Daranios (talk) 13:16, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

its name ... implies criticisms of "clannish-ness" Since the name was a parody of the Hand from Daredevil, the author is inferring intent that doesn't exist. I haven't read the rest of the paper, but I'm skeptical of using this kind of uninformed analysis as a source. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Argento Surfer: I would be very wary before assuming that the author of a publication in an academic journal, which presumably has an editor doing some controlling, is less informed than us here. Could you please explain more why you think the paper is in error here? Also, could you please let me know for my understanding, was "the Hand" in Daredevil called Hand Clan oder indeed just "the Hand"? Was it a clan? Thanks for providing more details! Daranios (talk) 14:28, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Ninja Turtles are well documented for being created as a spoof of a popular story from Daredevil. Another parallel is that Daredevil gained his superpowers when a truck carrying toxic waste nearly hit him, and some of the waste was spilled on him. The turtles gained their mutant abilities when a truck carrying toxic waste missed a young boy and some of the waste spilled down a sewer drain. This information was no doubt available to the researcher. A reading of TMNT in terms of anti-Asian sentiment may be valid, but anyone who suggests the authors were "implying" such a bias missed the mark since the name and nationality of the villains was determined by a previous work. Ms. Cobb was inferring meaning where there was none. I'm curious if the paper makes any reference to the turtles' sensei being an exiled member of the Foot, of their being raised under it's uncorrupted principles, as acknowledging that would seem to undermine her argument.

I have no plans to identify myself here, and therefore will not provide credentials, but I will say that I don't hesitate to put myself on even footing with Ms. Cobb with regards to this topic. Argento Surfer (talk) 14:03, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Argento Surfer: I in contrast have little background knowledge. But judging solely from the text, I see a number of arguments why I don't think there is a contradiction in the paper which would devalue it as a source. Most importantly, if my grasp of English does not fail me, "implies" can refer both to a person and a text. The intention of the creators of TMNT I think is never mentioned. The quoted sentence specifically refers to the impression the name and depiction of the Foot Clan makes. The argument, as I see it, is: the Foot Clan are the bad guys in the franchise, they are (in contrast to the Turtles) the unassimilated Japanese guys, and therefore give the concept of "Japanese Clan(ishness)" a bad press. Also, in contrast to the Hand from Daredevil, "Clan" has been added to the name, right? Interestingly, the second source, which I have now added, specifically mentions that it may or may not be intended by the authors, that there is a negative impression of foreignness in the respective movie, but that it's there. Daranios (talk) 13:16, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm uncertain about the frequency of "clan" being used in Daredevil - I read that story once, and it's been a while. I'm unable to view more than the preview of the paper - is it focused specifically on the 1990 film? If so, the material might be better suited to that article instead of a Foot Clan article. Across the franchise, the Foot soldiers have been robots more often than they've been humans (of any nationality or race). Argento Surfer (talk) 13:53, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I have seen, the paper is not completely but mostly focussed on that one film. Daranios (talk) 16:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect. I'm not seeing enough material in the sources above that can't be covered in the existing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Shredder pages. Popcornfud (talk) 14:32, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 14:02, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep. If we add what I found (excerpts above) and what Daranios found and translated (in the article), I think there is enough SIGCOV for this to squeak by. Surprising for such a niche topic, but you never know until you do a source query... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:18, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. I think there is enough to meet the minimum standard of GNG. It's an interesting case because there is analysis of the origin and meaning of "foot clan" which may actually be factually incorrect. Even if that is true, it would not count against GNG or SIGCOV. Although it does show the pitfalls of insisting there be "analysis" for fictional characters to be kept at AFD- anybody can write anything about a topic and call it analysis. Rhino131 (talk) 14:04, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.