Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dr. Who (Dalek films)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I see some support for a selective merge. But with no calls for deletion after the nomination was withdrawn, such a merge should be discussed on the article's Talk page. Owen× ☎ 13:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Who (Dalek films)

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

From what BEFORE I could undertake, I could find nothing discussing this character independently from the movies he starred in. While sources discuss and verify the character's existence, there is very little independent coverage discussing this character that would verify his notability outside of his source movies. Admittedly not sure on a viable AtD due to the character's unique naming, but regardless this character fails notability on his own. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 12:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Television. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 12:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I agree with the nom that there is not really any coverage of the character separate from the coverage of the two movies he appeared in, both of which already have full articles discussing them including the non-canon incarnation of the Doctor that appeared in them. Perhaps a Selective Merge to the main The Doctor article as a viable ATD? Currently that article only has a link to this page under the "See Also" section, so perhaps a couple sentences could be added to the main part of the article simply describing how a non-canon version of the Doctor played by Peter Cushing appeared in two films, with links to each of the films. Rorshacma (talk) 15:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly into the film articles? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 03:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep What does discussing this character independently from the movies mean? The character does not exist independently of the movies, like no fictional character can exist divorced from the medium it was created in. Sources like British Science Fiction Cinema, p. 119 and following, this Nerdist and this Inverse article discuss the character directly in a significant way, thus fullfilling the minimum requirements of WP:GNG and WP:WHYN. There are also many secondary sources which comment on the character in shorter fashion, including those already listed in the article or A Critical History of Doctor Who on Television p. 395-397, so there is no shortage of material or number of sources to write a full article. Additionally there's Dr. Who & The Daleks, which probably is not independent(?), but can still add and verify material fitting to an encyclopedic article. The topic could also be covered divided up to The Doctor#Actors and the two film articles. But as there is no one article discussing the two films together, there would need to be some duplication or splitting of material, which I personally find less helpful to the interested reader than just covering things here in one place. Daranios (talk) 10:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Daranios The Inverse source is pretty solid, but I'm admittedly a bit less sold on the Nerdist source, which is primarily focused on discussing the two films, with Dr. Who only getting a paragraph to himself within the entire editorial. Could you clarify what parts are discussed in those book sources you linked? I don't have access to all the pages and I admittedly am missing where the character is discussed in the book, so I would appreciate it if you could point out where those bits are. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 12:08, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think most important is p. 119 in British Science Fiction Cinema. Aside from things around casting Peter Cushing, which appear in many sources, it not only details the character of this Dr. Who and how it differs from the previous version and how this is achieved, but also what the purpose of these differences was: "very epitome of kindly, if eccentric, grandfather ... actively invites identification from the child audience", etc. Most of p. 119 deals with the Doctor. Pp. 120-121 to a larger degree deal with other characters (with arguably commentary on the Doctor's companions being material within the scope of our article here, they already have an established section), but also have further bits of characterization of Peter Cushing's Doctor. I've listed the pages for A Critical History. Again praise for Peter Cushing ("nothing less than an inspired decision. Who better to face off against the evil Daleks than the man who had repeatedly defeated Dracula?"), how the character was changed and a simpler explanation for the why (original origin "was too complex"), collected critical reception from other sources ("Cushing...is properly whimsical"). In Dr. Who & The Daleks, comments on the Doctor appear throughout, but I think especially relevant are pp. 30-31, and then there's the chapter dedicated to Peter Cushing, p. 44-47. Daranios (talk) 13:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Daranios could you show me some of these quotes from Dr. Who & The Daleks? I'm unable to view the book at all. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have the Dr. Who & the Daleks book, and here's a quote from page 44:
"When the question came up about the differences between his own on-screen portrayal of the first Doctor and that of William Hartnell, Cushing had devised a very clever answer worthy of the Time Lord himself. Cushing was a fan of the series but didn't watch it religiously due to the pressures of work at the time. 'One of the few episodes of the Doctor Who series that I saw involved a kind of mystical clown ('The Celestial Toymaker'), and I realised that perhaps he kidnapped Doctor Who and wiped his memory and made him relive some of his earlier adventures. With Bill Hartnell turned into Patrick Troughton and changed his appearance, that idea seemed more likely. I think that's what happened, so I think those films we did fit perfectly well into the TV series.'"

There's similar material on pages 30-31:
"Both actors [Hartnell and Cushing] were playing a much older man for their respective roles: William Hartnell was 57 years old in 1965 and Cushing 52. Cushing's Doctor appears to be around 70 years old... Cushing plays the Doctor as an Earthling, to accommodate American audiences' lack of knowledge of the UK series. In the short term this simplified the narrative, but in the long-term was frowned upon by some viewers and film critics."

There's more, but I think that's enough to establish that there's significant coverage of the character in the Dr. Who & the Daleks book. Also, to answer Daranios' question above, the book is independent — it's a non-fiction book about the films published by Titan Books in 2022, which has no relationship with the BBC or the film companies. Toughpigs (talk) 00:17, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep due to the sources provided above by Daranios, particularly Dr. Who & the Daleks and A Critical History of Doctor Who on Television. Toughpigs (talk) 00:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment While I feel the coverage provided is rather light, and I'm not sure how much more will be able to be added to the article from it, I do concur that this seems to be decent enough coverage to provide merit for a split, primarily due to the fact both The Doctor and the Dalek films are unviable "clean" merge targets. I'll withdraw for the time being to allow for some improvements to Dr. Who's article using the sources above, but I do feel if The Doctor's article is ever cleaned up, it may be wise to consider a merger there. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 03:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.