Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clifford Mayhew Dodkins

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. I read the consensus here as coming to the conclusion that being awarded a CBE is not sufficient to establish notability. Those who disagree are free to take this decision to WIkipedia:Deletion review. If there is an RFC on a policy page that concludes that awards like a CBE are enough to establish notability, I'll be glad to restore this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:22, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Clifford Mayhew Dodkins

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Was deprodded without improvement with the comment, "Doesn't need deleting. He is very well known in militaria collecting circles". However searches did not turn up enough coverage to show that this officer meets WP:GNG. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 14:40, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Military, and United Kingdom. dudhhr^talk _contribs (he/they) 15:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why delete it? It's a perfectly valid article and of interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S9036408 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Held the CBE, which has always been considered to meet the criteria of WP:ANYBIO #1. See here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, is there are policy you can point to that CBE alone means automatically notability? If there is, I'm happy to speedy close.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:18, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear precedent that it passes the notability guideline WP:ANYBIO, as I have illustrated. Only one person with a CBE has ever been deleted at AfD, and they undoubtedly shouldn't have been. CBEs are not given out in cornflakes packets. Only about 100 are awarded every year in a country of over 60 million people. If these people are not notable under ANYBIO #1, then who is? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Receiving multiple notable awards, can be a reason for passing WP:ANYBIO. ZanciD (talk) 19:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)(sock strike Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC))[reply]
Delete fails WP:BASIC. Mztourist (talk) 02:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Even if he does (and I would dispute the author of three notable books in his field does), that's irrelevant per the clear wording of WP:BIO given he clearly passes WP:ANYBIO. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:14, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, as others have pointed out his award(s) are not high enough to satisfy ANYBIO. Mztourist (talk) 10:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, nobody has said that apart from you. Of course the CBE is high enough. To claim otherwise is to completely misunderstand the British honours system. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:01, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See others who agree with me below. Your collection of old deletion discussions doesn't convince me. Mztourist (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One person, after you posted what you posted above. Hardly old. Precedent is important. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:15, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus changes, just like how SOLDIER was deprecated. Mztourist (talk) 03:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep: As of first line of WP:ANYBIO, he is notable as The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor. Contributor008 (talk) 09:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - nowhere does policy state that recipients of several lower level (meaning not the top two levels) of civilian/military awards, automatically qualify for notability. For example, the Purple Heart is both well known and significant. Yet we would not suggest that every soldier who has two Purple Hearts would be notable.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 10:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The Purple Heart is merely received for being unlucky enough to be wounded, not for any sort of achievement. This doesn't even merit a badge in many countries, let alone a medal. It's not in any way significant. But the salient fact here is his CBE, a very high award. He also received the DSO, a second-level military gallantry/leadership award. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:56, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  Okay, then say the Bronze Star Medal. And again, please show policy. I understand your viewpoint, and would have been to speedy close it if you had earlier (can't now), but viewpoints are not policy. Again, if there was an individual, who's only claim to fame was having won 2 Defense Distinguished Service Medals, that would not be enough to show notability. So please, point to the policy. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  Two fourth-level awards? No, doesn't establish notability. But WP:CONSENSUS is also important. Written policy is not the be all and end all on Wikipedia. And consensus is clear, established over many years and many AfDs. Again, we're talking about a single award meeting ANYBIO, not multiple awards. The DSO merely adds to the notability. It doesn't establish it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  
  I'd suggest you brush up on the Purple Heart. It was the first military decoration awarded in a systematic way by the US government, and 'merely' being wounded in combat is more significant than the Bronze Star (without V), the Air Medal, and a number of other awards routinely trotted out as notable. If nothing else the Purple Heart can establish an individual's service in a combat zone. The Bronze Star (without V) does not. Intothat darkness 21:12, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  I'll repeat, in most countries being wounded doesn't merit any award at all. The fact the USA does award a medal for it doesn't make it a significant award. Wrong place, wrong time, that's it. Not awarded for any sort of merit. The Bronze Star and Air Medal fall into much the same category, incidentally. No more than fourth-level awards at best, if that. No idea why we're mentioning them on the same page as the CBE, a high and relatively rare award for military or civilian achievement, or the DSO, a second-level military award for leadership or gallantry. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:49, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  There's no indication in the article his DSO was awarded for any specific event or action. To me it smacks of the "end of tour" packages that became common during the Vietnam War for officers above a certain grade (with the assumption they must have done something worthy of recognition during their tour...or just to pad their portfolios depending on which source you consult). Intothat darkness 14:09, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete in absence of further sourcing. I'm not convinced by the CBE-based argument (i.e. that it's sufficiently high for an automatic unambiguous notability). And in any case it's an additional criteria of which we are told meeting one or more [additional criteria] does not guarantee that a subject should be included. On a fundamental level, there simply doesn't appear to exist the prerequisite sourcing for a reasonably sourced article to be written about him. I'd be amenable to a merge/redirect, but I'm not sure of a suitable target.

As an aside, the article's use of images to pad the page is rather annoying and masks how the text largely just repeats the same few bits of information multiple times (compare "Written works" and "Bibliography"). I've WP:BOLDly removed most images and floated those that remain. I didn't touch the prose for now, but even if kept a significant cleanup (likely to a stub) is needed. -Ljleppan (talk) 07:04, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:11, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete mainly per Ljleppan. I remain unconvinced by the CBE and DSO-based arguments. Would certainly not oppose a merge or redirect if a suitable target was identified (something relating to militaria collecting, perhaps). Intothat darkness 14:11, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting once more. This discussion seems to have narrowed on the sole question of whether being awarded a CBE is sufficient to establish notability and Keep this article. Is there any rebuttal of whether or not WP:ANYBIO applies here?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, CBE does not rise to the level of ANYBIO. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 01:13, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete It seems that this person holds some importance, and can be deemed notable. But from current situations, I doubt. Please convince me otherwise Ploreky^{Have a problem?} 17:30, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.