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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep - non-admin closure - Peripitus (Talk) 05:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aoife Hoey (bobsleigh)[edit]

Aoife Hoey (bobsleigh) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Nominated by an anon (who therefore cannot complete the nomination). On the talk page, the following discussion has been taking place:

This entry was deleted in 2007 after the usual nomination process was followed; as she no longer competes at Bobsleigh there is no logical reason for her to be relisted a year later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.189.254 (talk) 10:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

She finished 22nd out of 23 teams with her sister; I have searched for some of the athletes who finished ahead of her on wikipedia and they are not listed. Wikipedia is not here to list everyone who ever represented their country as a journeyman or woman. Where is the notability? --213.202.189.254 (talk) 11:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was aware that she had been deleted earlier, but I bypassed this in an effort to avoid a potential issue last October. If you read the WP:BIO rules on the amatuer athletes, she does qualify. Chris (talk) 15:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural nomination. No opinion is being expressed by me. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 18:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the first sentence of the previous comment: the time to set out why she should not be deleted was when her nomination was going through in the normal way in 2007. She was deleted; what issue would have arisen in setting out why she should not have been deleted then. For my ease please set out why you think she qualifies as notable giving regard to the WP:BIO rules on amatuer athletes; I have read them and they do not change my view. By the way my understanding is she was not an amateur athlete as FIBT offer prize money and she was trying to secure sponsors. It is not wikipedia's job to list everyone who ever competed with little distinction at a sport. There is no notability here. She tried to go to the Olympics and was plain not good enough and she came 2nd from last in a FIBT world championship. She was a journeywoman bobsleigher of little distinction. Any 'coolrunnings' type argument that because she was from Ireland she deserves special credit should be set out; as it should be rejected. She is apart from possibly in her home county of Laois unheard of in Ireland.----213.202.138.250 (talk) 18:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep. Since she competed at 2005 FIBT World Championships in Calgary, she is notable. Notability does not expire; if she was notable then, she is notable now. --Eastmain (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The deletion referred to in the nomination was an A7 speedy of Aoife Hoey, not an AfD. In my view the speedy was erroneous; the deleted version of the article stated that she is a former Irish Triple Jump champion, a claim to notability. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This is per WP:BIO on the athletes section. The FIBT World Championships is the highest level of competition for championships in bobsleigh outside of the Winter Olympics regardless of finish. Chris (talk) 21:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - If you look at the revision history of this article, you will notice some deliberate (in my opinion) deletion of information about Hoey's competitive status both in athletics and in bobsleigh. Most of the deletions occurred by the same set of users who is trying to delete this article. Chris (talk) 21:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (and move to Aoife Hoey, no disambiguation needed), assuming the claims about competition hold up. --Dhartung | Talk 21:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - she meets notability through her participation. I also support the page move. matt91486 (talk) 23:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete-The comment that she meets notability by dint of coming 2nd last in the FIBT championships is facile; once more it has to be restated that it it is not wikipedia's function to list every journeyman or woman bobsleigher/darts player/ tennis player or whatever of little distinction. There has been deletion of bald comments that Hoey participated in athletics- on its own this is and was meaningless. There has also been overstatements and misleading comments posted on the entry which seem to have been posted by those who are trying to keep her on wikipedia come what may. There is the appearance of a vanity entry which is being supported by people who are either overly focused on bobsleigh's place in the grand scheme of things and/or know this lady. I have just gone to the Irish athletics association website and checked their 'all time' list Aoife Hoey's contribution to the world of Irish triple jump is a performance of something like 11.50 metres and she ranks 20th in Ireland on an all time basis. For those of you who do not follow that discipline this is about 4 metres below what world class athletes jump. If she ever did win the national title there it was a case of someone had to; no one else turned up. It is idiotic to suggest that merely winning a national title in a small country like Ireland makes you a lock in to be on wikipedia. Her track and field credits merit no more mention; her bobsleigh standing is little better. She competed for a short time which ended 2 years ago and made up the numbers. This woman along with her sister have been given false credit and promoted to the rank of the 195 other bobsleighers on wikipedia when this group includes all men and women, from all the countries who have performed in this sport over many, many years. The Hoey's short non-career in this sport does not merit this attention. --213.202.138.250 (talk) 09:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You already nominated it, so we were pretty sure you thought it was a strong delete already. But anyway, being 20th all time in an event like triple jump and being a successful winter sports competitor seems to make her notable. People can be among the best in a nation without being world class. I think winning a national title in any country would make you notable. And I can guarantee I don't know her, so that accusation towards the supporters is at least unfounded in my case. matt91486 (talk) 17:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
: It would be nice if I could be sure that you have just read what had been written; becuase your comments make little sense: she is 20th all time in the Republic of Ireland with a personal best of 11.49m which is about 2.15 metres behind the Irish national record holder. This is prob like giving a 5.30min miler a pat on the back. The Irish record holder is a further 2 metres or so off the standards seen in Germany, France, America and so on. Her relevance as a triple junmper is non-existant. She is also not a successful winter sports competitor: she competed sparingly and made up the numbers. This is a young woman if she thought she had a future at it she would have continued; she didn't continue because she made up the numbers. Winning a national title as discussed does not per se make you notable. In small countries like Ireland when attention is focused on soccer, rugby and gaelic sports some years someone has to win the national title and if there is a slump in standards- the winning time or standard is not pretty.--213.202.176.96 (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment- It seems that you possess such a vendetta against both of the Hoey sisters that it makes me wonder if you possess a conflict of interest. Also regarding the Siobhán Hoey article, why do you want to delete an article that was already nominated for deletion, but kept? Why do you want to beat a dead horse on an issue that is being resolved? The more comments you make like this, the more foolish you are beginning to look to other editors of Wikipedia. Think about that. Chris (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC) Comment--That is great shoot the messenger and avoid the message; where is the notability here. Answer the questions posed. Strong opinions are entitled to be expressed in a robust fashion; this lady lacks notability. In regard to an AFD that is not the subject of this page they can be reopened; no one needs your permission.--213.202.176.96 (talk) 23:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy Keep Participating in the world championship is automatically notable under the WP:BIO rules for athletes. Edward321 (talk) 05:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment-- let's go back to basics here. the only WP:BIO I can find is as below:

athletes and coaches who have competed in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.

Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports (who meet the general criteria of secondary sources published about them).[8]

There is no bald statement that participation in the world championship gets you in. For now lets say she was an amateur: it says that if you compete at the highest level; and meet the general criteria of secondary sources you may be included. In the first place I say that the Olympics is the higest level of participation for a Bobsleigher; I also say that the general criteria of secondary sources have not been met. I also say that if the Wolrd championship is considered and there is nothing in the standard set out above to suggest that should be used the phrase used is 'competed' and not 'particpated'. This lady made up the numbers she was a particpant and not competing at the highest level. In any event if an amateur the highest level is the Olympics. She did not go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.176.96 (talk) 10:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Winter Olympics, however, are only held every four years. It would be needlessly restrictive to only allow amateur competitors who competed at the Olympics to have articles. matt91486 (talk) 21:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment You are just wrong, wrong, wrong to include the reference to the World Championship in athletics. She didn't go to it; she was no way near. She didn't even go to the European championship. Her standard at the triple jump is woeful by international standards. It is hard to know how you would find yourself writing that comment. It beggers belief; she jumped eleven and a half metres or 11.5 metres at the triple jump- international triple jumpers who go the world championship jump four metres or so more. How are you writing some of the above notwithstanding comments that have been set out already describing how this lady is not much of an athlete. Your interpretation re FIBT is wrong too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.67.220 (talk) 21:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am not wrong on my intrepretation of the Notability issue on the WP:BIO. That has been the intrepretation of every article I have done. Additionally, this has been the issue among discussion of various athletes at all levels of sport who have listings in them. Do you want to deal with the notability of the issue of every single athlete who competed in every single sport? This would tie Wikipedia up in knots so much that no article would be created and only articles would be defended. All I am trying to present is the facts from the information I have accessed regardless of if they were the world champion or if they were the last in a particular event at a particular championship. Chris (talk) 22:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Let's take this one step at the time; and deal with the one point you ignore in your last comment: do you accept that Hoey never competed in the World Championship at athletics? --78.16.67.220 (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I admit that I am wrong on the World Championships in Athleitcs, but why will you not admit that you are deliberately removing content of her athletic career, even if it is marginal, to justify the article's deletion? The edit history of this article will show this. Chris (talk) 15:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Editing an article is deliberately removing content; why should there be any reference to her track and field career. Conversely there is the appearance that you are blindly insisting that content relating to matters other than bobsleigh is included so as to ensure she stays. I hold my hands up I can not think of a different way to say this: the lady can only jump 11.5 metres at triple jump she should not be discussed on wikipedia in this context. Where is the relevance or notability; you don't seem to have any undertstanding of athletics in light of your promotion of her to world class status. Your comments two statements back are the arguments of those who want to include everyone who ever went to a sporting event come what may. It is easy to weed out those who came last or second last and participated in the discipline for 2 years. Where are the multiple repeated secondary sources on this lady; other than the Laois press and some brief references in the national media by way of colour when she did not qualify for the Olympics. She is not known in Ireland; does not deserve inclusion on wikipedia for the bobsleigh let alone as a triple jumper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.57.123 (talk) 16:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - meets notability criteria for athletes through competing at the highest level of an amateur sport. Note that she there is no additional qualifier that the person must also win in the sport. -- Whpq (talk) 16:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment- The word used in WP:BIO is compete; not particpate. This lady particpated once in the FIBT world championship which is surpassed by the Olympics and came second to last. The comments in WP: BIO also have to be interpreted and applied and in this case they should lead to the conclusion that Hoey should be deleted. --78.16.57.123 (talk) 16:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compete means participate in that context. matt91486 (talk) 16:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - she competed, as in she contended for winning the event. A longshot to be sure but it is still competing. And as for the Olympics, they do not surpass the events held by the governing body of the sport -- Whpq (talk) 17:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The historical records of this athlete shows that she competed in both sports. Google search records of her show this. This is what I used to find the information on her when I first created the article. Chris (talk) 16:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't mean to be rude; but so what she participated in another sport- she maybe played on her school soccer team too. It has to be notable and as a 11 1/2 metre jumper she isn't. In terms of the governing body of the sport's event not being surpassed by the Olympics that is not true. When you read accounts of former athletes whether it is becuase they have died or retired; in some instances it says X won this, that and the other but never the Olympics. The normal meaning of compete is to strive against others to win or some such phrasing. Hoey was not a competitor in this sense. --78.16.57.123 (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - You can try to redefine things as much as you want, but she did indeed compete. And as for the Olympics, their existence does not preclude the importance of the regular sanctioned events in a sport. -- Whpq (talk) 22:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - Just because they did not compete at the Olympics did not mean they tried out to reach their respective Olympic team. There are many good athletes who are considered the best in their country who do not even make their own country's Olympic team. Like wise these athletes do very well in their respective sports at the national or international level. This is why the WP:BIO applies. Chris (talk) 22:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply- There is no re-definition here competing has a normal meaning and it has been set out. You make a bald statement that to strive to win etc is wrong and do not back it up at all. Assert away. The points that have been ignored here in recent times and merit some focus: are the brevity of Hoey's career and the fact that there is seemingly just one appearance at the FIBT world championship. The points made about the Olympics are all well and good but in the round a one time FIBT particpiant who came 2nd from last and was involved in the event for 2 years does not merit an appearance on Wikipedia. There are not by the way enough secondary sources on her either. WP: BIO does not include a comprehensive template that can be universally applied in each situation without some sensible application of the spirit of WP: BIO and such an appraoch means Hoey should be deleted. This is not a platform to showcase every journeyman or woman who showed up in championships once or twice well down the field. --78.16.64.211 ([[User talk:78.16.64.211|talk--78.16.64.211 (talk) 12:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)]]) 23:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BIO does set aside a universal template in this case: competing at the highest level of amateur sports. She did this at the world championship. With this satisfied, notability is satisfied. matt91486 (talk) 00:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply- This becomes circular: didn't compete; wasn't highest level of championship, not enough secondary sources and notwithstanding the fact she came second from last as WP:BIO is not on its own in the way its written applicable in all circumstances without interpretaion- the spirit of WP:BIO had to be considered: how long did the athlete compete for and how many championships did she go to. In this case 2 years, 1 championship and didn't compete participted. --78.16.64.211 (talk) 12:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - you seem hung up on the fact that she didn't do well, and thus insist that she didn't compete. Competing doesn't mean winning. The notability bar is set pretty low because Wikipedia is not paper. You also seem to be insistent that the Olympics represent the highest level of competition in amateur sport. They aren't. The world cups or other international events sanctioned by a sports governing body represent the highest level of competition. The Olympics are simply an every 4 year sports high point. The application of WP:BIO for athletes in AFD has generally been that a single appearance in the top level of competition is sufficient, and so being consistent in the application in this case would be keep. -- Whpq (talk) 13:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - Let us also take into account for this article that she did compete in multiple sports which was deleted prior to this nomination for deletion (Check the article history to prove my point.). Let us also take into account that she was a national champion in athletics prior to going into bobsleigh. If another user wanted to create articles on national champions in specific events in athletics in the future, Hoey's name would come up again. Do you want to go through this again in the future? Clearly, Hoey's article would be classified on WP:BIO as a notable one. Chris (talk) 14:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, being a national champion in athletics PLUS competing at the highest level on bobsled does add to her notability. One could argue that being a national athletics champion alone wouldn't confer notability, but when factored in with her bobsled that does confer notability, it is worthy of inclusion in the article. matt91486 (talk) 16:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Hoey took part at world championship level in her sport which I have always seen as meeting the extra criteria on WP:BIO. I also found another couple of articles which cover her at bobsleigh which are not in the article 1 and 2. Also unless there are two irish people called Aoife Hoey who do Triple Jump this 3 states that she competed at the European Cup for Triple Jump. There is clearly more than enough here to establish notability for wikipedia. I would strongly suggest moving the article back to just Aoife Hoey, giving a rounded biography including covering her on athletics not just bobsleigh. Davewild (talk) 19:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - The European cup is a league competition wherein there are 5 leagues with men's and women's teams promoted and relegated from one to the other- the Irish women are in the 2nd of 5 leagues. It is the lowest level of international athletics particpation where young athletes gain confidence and then go onto European, World and Olympic championships and it would seem in Hoey's case journeywomen athletes get thrown a bone after being around domestic athletics for a while. Hoey has never gone to a European, World and Olympic championship. if she did compete at the European Cup it changes very little; this is still a 11 1/2 metre triple jumper who is 20th on the all time list in the Republic of Ireland and around 4 metres shy of international standards. She is not notable as an athlete in the slightest and same is not worthy of inclusion in the article; one can argue a lot of things but Ms. Hoey's lack of distinction as a triple jumper is immovable. --194.125.76.23 (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • We are arguing she meets notability based on her bobsledding. We just think her athletics should be included in the article. matt91486 (talk) 22:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's also worth noting that the majority of the IPs involved in this discussion have little or no edit history outside of this topic. I'm not commenting on anything, but just that it should be thought of the same way that one would think of a Wikipedia:Single-purpose account. matt91486 (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Where do you draw the line on including references to other aspects of someones life; the triple jumping is just plain not notable. To turn to the matter at hand neither is the bobsledding and the reasons for same have been set out repeatedly. You are commenting on the fact that there are anon. Thats not really anything to do with this; the lady in question lacks notability. End of story. --194.125.76.23 (talk) 23:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You've already stated your delete opinion above. Please, only one !vote per person. -- Whpq (talk) 01:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Winning a national championship in an athletics event is worth mentioning in anyone's wikipedia article, regardless of how that performance might be on international standards. It might not be worthy of constituting a full discussion, but it's quite worthy of a sentence. matt91486 (talk) 23:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The same set of IP who are trying to delete this article are also the ones who are trying to delete the Sharon Foley article. These fall under the WP:SPA issues. Chris (talk) 23:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per WP:BIO. Participation in the World Championships is suitable to establish notability, and notability does not depend on results. DanielEng (talk) 01:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The WP:SPA point has been made by the same poster already; there is an argument that has been made on both their respective pages for deleting Hoey and Foley. One poster know seems to want to shoot the messenger/s rather than the message. That does not seem the point. Both athletes seem very marginal candidates for Wikipedia and if you follow through the logic set out here by the same poster who is throwing up the smoke on mirrors- who would you leave off Wikipedia??--83.71.168.81 (talk) 11:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The WP:BIO still applies to this article. Also, I am not shooting the messenger on this issue, but every time an edit is applied to an anonymous IP user, it leaves a mark on edits. These edits can be traced. Chris (talk) 14:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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