Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alleged electoral manipulation in Pakistan

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. While I see WP:TNT as an editorial choice rather than an administrative one, a strong, policy-based argument was expressed here by many that the page is a POV fork. However, just as many, even after discarding those clearly canvassed here, validly claimed that the topic is notable, as evidenced by sources, and that POV issues can be fixed without deletion. This close is without prejudice against merging with an existing NPOV-written article, or rewriting from scratch, both of which can be discussed on the article's Talk page. The article is currently semi-protected per WP:ARBPAK, so things should move in a more productive direction now. Hopefully, the page will be in good enough shape (or properly merged) in two months that we won't have to go through another AfD for it. Owen× ☎ 12:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged electoral manipulation in Pakistan[edit]

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The originator of this article has been blocked for sockpuppetry, and the content from previous socks has been shown to be biased, lacking in neutrality as they admit in their unblock request that they were here with a political agenda of exposing something instead of building encyclopedia. These subjects are already addressed in articles on Military coups in Pakistan, and each election article discusses allegations of rigging such as here. Several other editors have also expressed concerns, such as content failing verification. With such a vast article, it's impractical for anyone to meticulously review every piece of content against numerous sources. Therefore, it would be wise to delete it, saving volunteers countless hours. WP:TNT might apply here. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Pakistan. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Personally I was inclined to keep but given the massive damage done to this article by a separate sockpuppet I am inclined to support a delete or a massive rewrite, preferably one that focuses less on history rather than the methodologies allegedly used. Borgenland (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Borgenland:, we can easily recover the old versions [1]. 23.156.104.104 (talk) 05:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, the last version before Bolt Kjerag tampered the 2024 election would be the last competent edition of this article. Borgenland (talk) 05:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Law, and Military. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Only sources 21 onwards seem to be about vote manipulation/rigging, rest are simply election results. I suspect there's a story here that could be written, but the sockpuppet and other issues in the nom don't leave me filled with hope. Likely TNT is the best option; a super enthusiastic editor could draft it and work from there, but this will be a long one to rework. Oaktree b (talk) 21:10, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* Keep. FWIW, WP:TNT is an essay and article content does not determine notability. What matters is that the topic is notable as independent coverage exists and the article has already been reviewed by @Bastun: [2]. It is very lazy to say that just because the article is long, so I won't review it. I'd suggest to revert it back to the version Bastun reviewed.

Majeed, Zohaib Ahmed (February 7, 2024). "Ranking the 5 'dirtiest' elections in Pakistan history". DAWN.COM.

Mufti, Mariam (June 19, 2018). "Who rigs polls in Pakistan and how?". Herald Magazine.

Asif, Muhammad; Khan, Tariq Anwar; Khan, Muhammad Fahim (2021). "Electoral malpractices in Pakistan: Facts and events of political instability". Pakistan Journal of International Affairs. 4 (4).

There is a complete book about this topic called Electoral Malpractices. See [3].

Weinbaum, M. G. (1977). "The March 1977 Elections in Pakistan: Where Everyone Lost". Asian Survey. 17 (7): 599–618. doi:10.2307/2643408 – via JSTOR.

~~Thanks. 23.156.104.104 (talk) 04:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)~~ — 23.156.104.104 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Keep There were & there are alternatives to deletion available instead of outright deleting this pg. While it's true that this pg needs significant work,but per WP:PROBLEM, deletion shouldn't be used as a form of punishment. @Borgenland: You remember this discussion ? The same sock puppet who added the messy content to this pg also added some unveriable OR material to the main election pg, but with some effort, it was cleaned up. The same approach should be taken here. Someone needs to step up and clean it up, maybe me (but not sure when) but let's not disregard the efforts of those who have contributed to this page at some point, including yourself. --Saqib (talk) 10:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is why I was also two-ended in my comment. By the way, someone has been making a branch article called Allegations of rigging in the 2024 Pakistani general election. Hopefully it is a better-made article that can survive scrutiny. Borgenland (talk) 10:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep per Saqib. BBC Urdu recently covered this important topic as well ([4]). 103.148.128.128 (talk) 09:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC) — 103.148.128.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Delete seems like a notable topic, but I completely agree with the TNT concern. Best to start over, or to work on individual elections. SportingFlyer T·C 16:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* Leaning keep. Oaktree b and SportingFlyer agree that this is a notable topic so there is nothing to debate here. This article should help. It is more of a list and meets WP:NLIST as well. 103.65.140.93 (talk) 10:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC) — 103.65.140.93 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Delete There is no heading of allegation in all election pages except 2018 and 2024. There is separate page for Allegations of rigging in the 2024 Pakistani general election. It is better to move information of this page to respective election page and delete this one.--Ameen Akbar (talk) 18:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note to the closing admin: Most of the SPA IP addresses that voted keep here were mainly involved in AFDs related to HistoriesUnveiler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is the blocked sock puppet and originator of this article. There is an ongoing SPI with no action taken yet. In my opinion, these votes should be disregarded due to their questionable nature. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Highly notable article, electoral fraud is a very much a thing in Pakistan. Its deletion amounts to getting rid of the article. The new article won't also be much different from it. Concerns regarding content can be addressed on talk for which AfD should not be used. WP:DEL-CONTENT Muneebll (talk) 14:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The article appears to be a WP:POVFORK, Nothing significant in this article, containing redundant or overlapping information added by a blocked sock puppet. Much of it is already covered in Military coups in Pakistan and election articles, Given these concerns deletion seems like the most practical solution. War Wounded (talk) 15:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:24, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The article contains notable content that is adequately referenced as per WP:RS. Being blocked due to SP does not in any way mean that we take a look at the editor's contributions from a biased filter. We should judge on the merits/demerits of the article. I do not find anything in its content that warrants a nom for deletion. There is room for expansion, yes, and I like the fact that it provides a general overview of a country whose electoral history has been fraught with allegations of malpractices. Wiki.0hlic ^(talk) 22:47, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per the issues raised regarding the neutrality and verifiability of the content are significant. The article appears to have been heavily influenced by a blocked user with a known bias, which undermines the credibility of the information presented. The time and effort required to verify and rewrite the content would be substantial, and it may be more efficient to delete the article and start anew, if necessary. Ainty Painty (talk) 05:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. Also, a request, please let uninvolved editors, Checkusers or SPI clerks strike opinions from sockpuppets. Thank you.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz: Already done. --Saqib (talk) 13:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, topic is subject of analysis by independent secondary sources. Abductive (reasoning) 12:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with 2024 Pakistan Elections — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheel (talk • contribs) 07:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC) [reply]
Keep I changed my mind. The citations give it a WP:GN. We can discussing merging later if the content is required for merging.Cheel (talk) 15:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above and rename to Election rigging in Pakistan. The coup article covers only direct interventions of the military, while this article is about interventions pre or post elections. Not all of these interventions are alleged, as the article's current title suggests. Electoral rigging in 1977 is widely recognized [5], while rigging in 1990 by the military resulted in a conviction in the Asghar Khan case [6]. I'm compiling all the reliable references or academic works below for review:

Majeed, Zohaib Ahmed (February 7, 2024). "Ranking the 5 'dirtiest' elections in Pakistan history". DAWN.COM.

Mufti, Mariam (June 19, 2018). "Who rigs polls in Pakistan and how?". Herald Magazine.

Asif, Muhammad; Khan, Tariq Anwar; Khan, Muhammad Fahim (2021). "Electoral malpractices in Pakistan: Facts and events of political instability". Pakistan Journal of International Affairs. 4 (4).

"عام انتخابات میں مبینہ دھاندلی اور نتائج بدلنے کے الزامات: الیکشن فراڈ کیا ہے اور اس سے جمہوریت کو کیا خطرہ ہوتا ہے؟" [Allegations of rigging and tampering in general elections: What is election fraud and how does it threaten democracy?]. BBC Urdu.

Skål, 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC) — 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

N. Martin covered electoral fraud in Pakistan and India in 2020 [7]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:24, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Solid work by Mazhar Abbas [8] on this topic. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ELECTORAL FRAUD: A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR TO DYNASTIC POLITICS by MU Din et. al. [9]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:29, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Electoral malpractices in Pakistan article in the Pakistan Journal of International Affairs [10]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Electoral manipulation or astute electoral strategy? published by Taylor & Francis [11]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'Election disputes' or disputed elections?: Judicial (non-) review of the electoral process in Pakistan by MH Cheema [12]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:34, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ELECTION MANAGEMENT AND PARTY DECISION MAKING IN PAKISTAN [13]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:36, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Military rule, civilianisation and electoral corruption: Pakistan and Bangladesh in perspective [14]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pakistan: Voting under military tutelage [15]. 2A01:799:2E3:C500:556:815E:86C2:7DB1 (talk) 15:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've closed hundreds of AFD discussions but this is a first, I've just protected this AFD so only autoconfirmed editors can participate. I think the possibility of sockpuppets and these drive by comments are hindering productive discussion and arriving at a consensus. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. What a mess, my condolences to the closer. I think that there is probably consensus that the topic here is notable, and that is pretty much where I land too. Policy-wise I suppose that means that we should edit our way out of the problem, perhaps by semi-protecting the article too. However, WP:TNT has been a valid application of WP:IAR since the very beginning, and I have sympathy for those that favor it here. Pragmatically, perhaps close this procedurally as no consensus and open a redirect discussion on talk page to point this to the far superior Allegations of rigging in the 2024 Pakistani general election Borgenland noted above. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 03:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Agenda based article and it already covered in the articles mentioned above. Vijay Kumar RJ (talk) 09:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.