Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Akiko Hatsu

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Akiko Hatsu

The result was Keep. (non-admin closure) Pete.Hurd (talk) 04:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unnotable manga artist; tagged for notability since January with no improvement. No significant coverage for this artist. Fails WP:BIO.-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. -- -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:45, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as this artist has produced around 40 manga works (many multiple volumes, too), all published through major publishers in Japan over the last 25+ years. Her works are generally highly regarded as well. None of her works have been published in English as far as I know, but she is very well known in Japan. I'm working on getting more information and more sources (not that the ones there are invalid for any reason). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I should also note that all four sources are not simply for her (never heard of a guy named "Akiko") list of works. Did you not notice them being used in the intro? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed my pronoun usage and remove misstatement. FYI, per AfD guidelines, you should note that you are the article creator when commenting keep/delete/etc. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People who care can check the article history (it's not all that long). Just because I created the article doesn't make my opinion any less valid, especially if I raise legitimate points. I'm not saying "Keep" just because I created the article (though I realize some people do that). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I've sorted this discussion into the list of Living people-related deletion discussions and the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. (adjunct professors count as educators, right?)

Comment: The main problem here is that the article suffers a bit from WP:HOLE. I hope my recent addition about her being a co-coiner of the term yaoi does something to alleviate that concern. -Malkinann (talk) 10:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Certainly not notable academically and does not pass any of the criteria of WP:ACADEMIC. May be notable as an artist under WP:CREATIVE but at the moment the case is not particularly convincing. The article says that "she coined the term yaoi with Yasuko Sakata". If that is correct, it may be sufficient for passing WP:CREATIVE under "The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique." However, I am confused by the references given in the article to support this point. This reference[1] (currently ref no. 3) says:"The term yaoi was coined in the late seventies by Kanazawa region dojinshi artists included Yasuko Sakata and Rinko Hatsu." Here is another ref (not currently listed)[2]:"The origin of term of Yaoi was from the manifesto of Kanazawa region-based group (e.g. Rinko Hatsu and Yasuko Sakata) that they ironically called the content of their dojinshi were “Yamanashi, Ochinashi, and Iminashi." Are Rinko Hatsu and Akiko Hatsu the same person or two different people? Nsk92 (talk) 11:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, perhaps Rinko was her pen-name at some point? The book clearly states Akiko Hatsu. -Malkinann (talk) 12:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Most of the hits I see for the term ascribe it to Rinko Hatasu, however, as mentioned above, you can clearly see it credited to the subject here. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 13:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added later: She is cited as Akiko in the Saito Tamaki article that Malkinann quoted. Timothy Perper (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep With that much manga published in Japan, Akiko Hatsu is notable enough for inclusion here. If her work is translated in print, then it will be more obvious to English-only audiences. However, two of her works -- Devil in the Water and Mourning of Autumn Rain -- are presently available in ebook format from Adobe (see http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/author/hatsu-akiko-ebooks.htm). Timothy Perper (talk) 12:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I wasn't aware we had a WP:DEADLINE, but even so I'm ambivalent on this one. I just find it odd that if this artist does indeed have 30+ works under their belt, why do we (and ANN) only have two listed? If I saw just, say, 3-4 more I'd say keep. 208.245.87.2 (talk) 12:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep based on the subject's role in orginating the concept of yaoi, and the volume of her work. Assuming the link I cited above in reply to Nsk92 is accurate, I feel her role is sufficient to meet WP:CREATIVE. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 13:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. It'd be a weak one based on WP:CREATIVE, at least what's given here, were it not for coining (or being credited with coining) a significant term. If it stated (with a source) that her works are "highly regarded" in Japan, then it wouldn't be weak in the first place. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Since I'm a beginning Wikipedia editor, I don't know the ins and outs of WP notability requirements, so I'll tell you what I know. Hatsu was an assistant to Moto Hagio in the 1970s, and was prominent in the dōjinshi community before making her commercial debut in 1981. In 1979, as a member of a dōjinshi group that included Yasuko Sakata (who also went on to become a prominent professional manga artist), she participated in a group discussion about the dōjinshi world which was printed in the group's self-published dōjinshi, Rappori. The idea that many dōjinshi were "Yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi" (having "No climax, no point, no meaning") was frequently discussed among community members, but this group discussion is the first known usage of the acronym "Yaoi". After her professional debut, Hatsu was picked up Junya Yamamoto, the editor in chief of Petit Flower and highly regarded "father of the Year 24 Group. Hatsu was representative of the literary, slightly intellectual atmosphere of Petit Flower, which included work by most of the artists considered to belong to the Year 24 Group, as well as such prominent post-Year 24 Group artists as Ryōko Yamagishi, Tomoko Naka, Shio Satō, Masumi Moriwaki, etc. Hatsu is known for angular faces of her characters, which are immediately recognizable to anyone even vaguely familiar with the shōjo manga artists of her generation. She is also known for her technical skill, attention to detail, and refusal to "fudge" or "wing" anything. Many casual readers find the "sharp" look of her characters off-putting, but she continues to have a solid following, and as I write has about 36 tankōbon in print (some of which are different editions of the same works). She is currently one of the star artists of the magazine manga magazine Nemuki, which also features such creators as Ichiko Ima and Baku Yumemakura. She taught as an adjunct professor in Kyoto Seika University's Department of Comic Art for several years. I should note that she is a friend and former colleague of mine. I also wrote the afterword for Vol. 5 of the bunko ("pocketbook") edition of her 雨柳堂夢咄 (Uryūdō yume banashi). BTW, "Rinko" is simply an amateurish mistake by someone who was too lazy to look up the proper pronunciation of the name 彬子. She never had such a pen name, and there is no such person. Matt Thorn (talk) 16:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please provide verifiable, reliable sources for all of this? -Malkinann (talk) 16:52, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that Matt needs to provide refs for everything he's saying here. What we need instead, I think, are some selected refs showing that Hatsu was/is a well-known mangaka of the period in Japan and was/is highly respected as an artist. Once again, just because her work is unfamiliar to many Anglophone readers does not mean that she is "not notable" for our purposes. Actually, given Matt's status in this field, I'd say that his judgment is quite sufficient to show that Hatsu is notable. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Providing solid references is not a problem. Matt Thorn (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be deeply helpful if you could add that, with the sources, to the article. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Clear claims of notability and article is very well sourced for its size, especially considering most sources would be in Japanese. Edward321 (talk) 00:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. An originator of the term "yaoi", extensive body of work, influential drawing style (this last might be hard to reference, but I'm willing to take Matt Thorn's word for it for now). I also comment Thorn for his full disclosure. That kind of thing is appreciated by many Wikipedians, and he shouldn't take a few negative reactions as typical. I expect the nom will withdraw any moment now.... --C S (talk) 10:17, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. —Fg2 (talk) 14:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This appears to be a case of WP:SNOWBALL. Anyone want to grab an uninvolved admin to close this? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.