User talk:Worm That Turned/Archive 18

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A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	For dragging me out of that edit war. Electric Catfish 16:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, would you mind if I borrowed some of your adoption material for my own adoption program? Thanks, Electric Catfish 16:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC).

Please do Worm^TT(talk) 17:00, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! A sigh of relief that it's all over :). Electric Catfish 17:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, are you allowed to get in an edit war reverting section blanking? I know you are allowed to do so over BLP violations or vandalism. Thanks, Electric Catfish 17:15, 23 July 2012 (UTC).

Or while re-instating validly-imposed CSD tags that were removed by the author? Electric Catfish 17:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Why get into an edit war at all? I've never needed to. There's no rush on anything - start discussion, wait a while. Worm^TT(talk) 17:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I've never got in an edit war until today and I hope to never do so again. I tried to contact both of these users via their talk pages, but they didn't respond. SDPatrol Bot reinstated the tags for me and I reported both of the users and they are both currently blocked. Thanks again, Electric Catfish 17:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC).

Link in signature

Is it appropriate for a signature to link to an image? Specifically, I am referring to the signature of User:O'Dea. Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

No.—cyberpower ^Chat_Absent 00:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)Actually it doesn't violate policy but I personally don't want to see links to images in signatures. It's up to the community on this one. At least this user isn't signing with this image.—cyberpower ^Chat_Absent 00:48, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

It's an odd one isn't it. Signatures should point either a userpage or a talk page, which it does. After that, any other links are at the users discretion, many people link to special contributions, but I've seen editors advertise projects. I'd have a problem if he were redirecting his userpage to that image, and linking to the userpage, or if he were displaying the image in his signature, but I'd chalk this one up to no big deal and move on. Worm^TT(talk) 11:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

BLP Question

Hi Worm! Thanks again for getting me out of the edit war. I have 2 more questions about policies here and I that hope you can please answer them. Thank you in advance!

1. You're not supposed to move pages without consensus on the talk page, but how about BLPs in which the surname has not been capitalized (Joe smith) or where the name is in all capitals (JOE SMITH). As a new page patroller, I often move these pages into the correct title, but do I need consensus to do this?
2. With the MLB trade deadline approaching, many players are getting traded. I saw today an edit war between an IP and another editor. The IP claimed that he heard that the trade was done, but the editor argued that the trade had not been confirmed by reliable sources online. I know that you are allowed to break the 3RR by obvious vandalism and by BLP violations, but specifically, in this situation, are you allowed to break the 3RR? (After today, I'd stop reverting after reverting 2 times).

• Thank you so much, Electric Catfish 00:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC).

I should point out that "MLB Trade Deadline: Yankees Make Bold Outfield Trade to Land Ichiro Suzuki" (the first thing that Google found for me) is probably as meaningless to Worm as it is to me. I worked out that it's about baseball players in the USA. Worm can probably work out that you mean real people, and not baseball cards, but it's best to be specific with everything like this.

I'll let Worm answer about your 3RR question ;) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:40, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I guessed it was something like Player transfers in football! As for your questions, if a new page is mis-spelled, or doesn't conform to our manual of style, there's no problem with moving it. BRD can really apply to moves too, as they can be reversed. Don't worry too much about it, though get consensus for anything that might be contentious. You'll have to use your judgement for that!

Regarding the other, I'll say again, why get into an edit war at all. There is no deadline. If the encyclopedia is wrong for a while, whilst discussion happens, it's not the end of the world. Fine, make a revert to get the conversation flowing, but after that discuss the matter! Specifically, from a technical point of view, this does not meet the exceptions at WP:3RR, it's not obvious vandalism, and it barely qualifies under the BLP exemption. Worm^TT(talk) 11:05, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, thank you so much guys for helping me out and yes, I am a big baseball fan and I create articles for the Wikiproject Baseball. Best, Electric Catfish 11:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC).

Oversight

I may be needing you to use your new tool. If you could keep an extra close eye on my talk page that would be great. If you do oversight information, I'd generally want it to be sent to me in an email afterwards (assuming I wasn't the one who reverted it and/or it wasn't the same as something I had previously reverted). Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:58, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Stray cap

Worm, I hope you don't mind that I moved the title in your userspace with the stray D, downcasing it. Tony (talk) 04:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear, I see that it's mangled the page text. Can't work out why, and can't see how to fix. Sorry. Tony (talk) 04:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed the transclusions. We may want to move those as well. Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject Editor Retention

I've participated in your new proposal here in userspace. I think that could easily be within the goals of the WP:WER project, and would support you bringing the issue up on both the front page and talk page at the project, if you would like more eyes on it. I'm not sure how many eyes you want on it, but I would be happy to support it and put more eyes on it. It is very much in line with my own personal ideas as well. Feel free to drop me a line anytime you are working on a similar project, or to just automatically add it to the Project. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © (WER) 11:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Cheers Dennis. I'm hoping to move it live at the weekend, and I'll make sure I include WER as one of the notifications I do. I've already got half a dozen in mind. Any pre-live suggestions with regard to the layout or text or anything would be greatfully appreciated. Worm^TT(talk) 11:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Looks pretty good. These things tend to get free form along the way anyway, unless someone is "clerking" it. I've already commented a couple of times. I think you and I have a lot of similar ideas as to the problem here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © (WER) 12:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Oh, remember I was thinking about SQL to find out percentage of blocks of different editor types, I did a preliminary check over 500 entries in the block log a week or two ago (using a bot), and I found that there were about 3-4 with over 10k edits, 30-40 with over 1000, and over 100 with 6m experience. I've got some spare time this weekend so I'll be playing round with those figures again. I'm not sure when I'll be looking at upbundling blocks for editors with high edit counts, but I do think it's still on the cards with those numbers. Worm^TT(talk) 13:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Bot suggestion

Hi Dave, where do Bot suggestions go if i have one? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:48, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The best place to go is Wikipedia:Bot requests, but depending on the difficulty, you may want to lay it out here. I can think of at least 3 editors who watch my page who would fight over it. Worm^TT(talk) 11:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Okedokie. I think when we get drive by IPs add articles and the basis for a stub i think we put a lot off editing by them not knowing how to add references or not knowing how to see the finished result. So what about a bot (similar to the "this article cites no sources" message but) which adds the reference section to the bottom of these articles, which don't already have one to make it easier? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 12:26, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Well clearly my stalkers aren't interested ;) Try the bot request board. I think you might have to go through a bit more though, you may want to take something like this to our proposals board first. Worm^TT(talk) 14:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

DYK

Can you take a look at my request at WT:DYK#Dan Oates? I don't expect you to take action, but I'd like a thought on whether I am correct in the urgency of this one. Specifically since the only commenter has been from an editor who appears to have a bias against it solely for being American or for being related to the Aurora Colorado Shooting. (See Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Unsourced BLP DYK) Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:17, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Tell you what, if nothing's happened to it by the time I start work tomorrow, I'll look into it ;) Worm^TT(talk) 16:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Worm. I'm just so disappointed by the fact that so many really saw the copyrighted version (at least 3,000). I really want them to see an accurate, free version before it gets drowned out by the olympics. Thanks for the Dannyboy thing too. It appears that while I understood he wasn't ready, I overestimated his ability to get to that point. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Well Ryan may not expect any action, but I do. I'd like to see Worm click this link http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit and just stick it in there. This is totally a WP:IAR situation. C'mon Worm, be a mensch.– Lionel ^(talk) 00:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Note that the template has been approved; however, it is currently set to appear on July 28 from 4:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. US pacific time. I'll contact the promoting administrator and see if he/she can do anything about speeding that up. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that wasn't an administrator. I could still see if the editor can swap it out with one of the earlier prep areas. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Looks like this is being dealt with (right?!), and since I'd rather not play with the main page directly... i think I'll leave it to people more in the know. Worm^TT(talk) 14:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It was moved up a bit, and I'm happy with the current result. In fact, new sources have come out and I appreciate the extra time to improve it. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Community De-adminship proof of concept

Hi Jc37. I'm hoping to start on the long road towards community de-adminship, and I thought I might come to you to help out with User:Worm That Turned/Community De-adminship proof of concept. I'm hoping to get an RfC together to judge the community's view on "community de-adminship". I know this isn't going to be a short process, there's a reason it's perennial, but I thought it would be a good way to start. Would appreciate any thoughts. Worm^TT(talk) 12:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that this is a nice start. But to work as a community-wide discussion (much less, straw poll), the sections will likely need to be split more (be less general in scope).

I'll work on this later if you like. - jc37 20:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've never worked on something like this before, but I was expecting this to be more of a preliminary RfC, which ensured that future discussions would be on topics that are more likely to acheive consensus. I'm well aware that say, Pending changes or Verifiablility has taken multiple phases - so that was the model I was aiming for. However, I'm aware that the text at the top needs to explain this further, and that the proposals themselves should be more eyecatching, so I was planning to do a bit more work on it yet. Worm^TT(talk) 08:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you saw this attempt at community un-de-adminship. [1] (Scroll down to the !vote.)Neotarf (talk) 07:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I didn't really follow the Perth case, though I have seen how controversial it was. I think that it might even show more of a need for this tool, to remove arbcom as the only route for de-adminship. Worm^TT(talk) 08:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It was depressing. At least I could come over here once in a while and see what your adoptees were up to. They are always in good spirits. I've never tried this before, but allow me to present you with this token of appreciation for having an imminently stalkable talk page.

I have been thinking about term limits for some time. That way, people who might not otherwise think of being admin could try it for a little while to see how they liked it, maybe as temporary short-term apprenticeship without the usual vetting, or maybe with a mentor. You would elect or appoint a bunch of them at the same time, maybe four times a year or so, then once they got their feet wet, they would serve a 2 year term or somesuch before everyone had to run for office again. It would get dialog going about what makes a good admin, and give admins continuous feedback about how they are perceived without putting extreme negative focus on just one person.

A little OT, but I found this particular remark interesting, especially in light of some of the issues that ArbCom did NOT choose to look at in the Perth case. [2] What struck me was the tension between policy reflecting best practice, and best practice being dictated by policy. Seems like a self-correcting feedback loop missing. Neotarf (talk) 13:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I had no idea that people dropped in to watch my adoptees! How heartening, am glad you dropped by to say a few words. There was a fair amount of discussion last year over the idea of temporary admin trials, be it under a mentor, or with a cut down set of tools, or for 3 months or whatever, I can dig up the links for you if you like. Although popular in certain areas, especially with those editors who want to be admins, the general feel I got was that it was a bad idea. Comments like "If someone gets temporary adminship, then they will just have to keep their nose clean to get full and wouldn't do anything that might be considered controversial" and "If they're trustworthy enough for 3 months adminship, they're trustworthy enough for the full bit" and "We don't want to make it easier to become an admin" all appeared.

Personally, I don't think it's a bad solution, but some of the other ones I read I found to better. Perhaps you could suggest it at the current RfA reform project, which I've kept out of because I clearly didn't make it work last time. I'm more concerned with seeing how the community feels about de-adminship at the moment. Worm^TT(talk) 14:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I've dropped in before, but you weren't in. Never fear, the hospitality of your page was impeccable in your absence and the question I had at the time was answered. Since I am still a bit inexperienced at Wikipedia, I am trying to learn the ropes, sometimes by watchlisting people, sometimes by watchlisting a topic, and sometimes just following the blue links as I see something that looks interesting. Often I encounter a turn of phrase or an unfamiliar policy at the exact moment that I need to use it somewhere. Your page is good for that since you are often explaining things to newcomers, but also because they are very sharp, so the explanations aren't dumbed down, and are given in an engaging way. For some reason, it reminds me of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

That project does look interesting -- will try to make some comment in the next couple of days. At the moment I'm half a step away from an edit war [3] with a couple of editors who have already been involved in an admin getting blocked; I will try to steep myself in policy before my next move, and hope I can navigate the shark-infested wikiwaters. Neotarf (talk) 20:35, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Copyvio

Pollywog is an exact copy of the only reference on the article. I have nominated it for speedy deletion, can you check i've done it properly? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 19:04, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

You seem to have not put the tag in or have reverted it (I'm not sure, I didn't look into details), but I have but on the appropriate (G12) tag myself.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  19:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I put a tag there but it was contested almost immediately by an editor claiming redirecting the talk page will solve the possible copyvio in the article. I don't see how...Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 19:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Note that when earlier revisions do not contain copyrighted material it should be reverted rather than tagged with DB-G12. Hopefully Worm can do a revdelete for the copyrighted history tomorrow. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:51, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I didn't even notice that there was discussion of the redirect on the talk page. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Neither did I. Anyway, it's all sorted now, so all's good.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  19:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Problem solved. Thanks talk page staplers ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 19:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

At your service, sir.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  19:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

All sorted now :D Good spot Jenova, and well done to the other staplers trying to help out. Worm^TT(talk) 09:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Abuse filter question

Hi, can someone explain to me why this edit triggered an abuse log filter? I don't know what that is or why i triggered it (or if it matters). Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The abuselog is a bit of a misnomer these days, because edit filters are not just used for abuse. That filter that you triggered just monitors the use of wikilove. Don't worry about it. Worm^TT(talk) 10:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't worried, it just seemed odd to me. Thanks for the quick reply and have a nice day ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Chaosdruid

Ive always credited Chaos for the welcome. We worked well together @ WikiGuides and he definitely deserves any wiki-wide credit for a very functional welcome. As I mentioned to DB, it needs changes (your updates, copy-vio, etc). I just didnt want you to think I was taking credit for someone elses work. ```Buster Seven Talk 11:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh god no, didn't think that for a moment. Was just saying where I'd got if from, and what updates I'd done to it when I looked at it. Worm^TT(talk) 11:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Talk page attack revert

Hi Worm, FYI I reverted a message from Cyberpower678-alt (talk · contribs) left on your talk page (may be worth a look). Callanecc (talk • contribs) talkback (etc) template appreciated. 16:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

FYI, that wasn't me. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Unkown. Given the circumstances and what just happened, I think it would be appropriate to take some time off of Wikipedia.—cyberpower ^Chat_{Temporarily Online} 18:38, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Do note that nobody suspected it was you. In fact, you weren't formally mentioned in the investigation. Just an offhand remark by Dennis which he stated was unlikely. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I know. I wasn't saying he accused me of socking,—cyberpower ^Chat_{Temporarily Online} 19:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Callanecc. I've got an inkling who this might be, so I've emailed the checkuser who investigated. I could be quite wrong, of course. Worm^TT(talk) 09:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I can guess who you're thinking of...sock impersonation accounts with you as the connection...--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 11:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, I believe I'm the connection here. Arrogant as that may be! Worm^TT(talk) 11:21, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Who do you suppose this is? Since I've been impersonated, I think I have a right to know.—cyberpower ^Chat_Absent 23:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are what? according to Conservapedia

Humorous quotes relating to bias and Wikipedia

See also: 10 telltale signs you are on your way to becoming an atheist nerd - satire

An article entitled Wikipedia Gridlocked by Wikipedia Nerds declared: "So who are these Gatekeepers to all the internet's knowledge? A survey the foundation conducted last year determined that the average age of an editor is 26.8 years, and that 87% of them are men. As you suspected: nerds.[63]"

Found it here and it made me laugh just how negative and factually incorrect the entire thing is. Enjoy ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

On the topic of humorous things. I've recently found meta:Friends of gays should not be allowed to edit articles. I found it pretty funny. The conservapedia link didn't work for me. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

A lot of those examples would actually offend the person in question if not from a friend and so it's more likely to be the case of them being enemies of gays since friends wouldn't write that stuff about their friends. Nice example though Ryan ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 18:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

That's the point of the humour. Ryan Vesey Review me! 20:03, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

A couple questions...

Hey Worm I do have a couple of questions of copyright which you can find on the adoption page. --LoganLopez (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Swifty

Could you talk to Swifty for me? He began a discussion at Talk:Pokémon in June to determine what should be done concerning the existence of a then unreleased character in the game, but two weeks ago said character was officially confirmed to exist. He seems to have not accepted this fact when it was brought up in the discussion two weeks ago, and closed the discussion yesterday saying we should continue to ignore the character's existence despite now having reliable sources to back it up. I notified him that the reliable source exists, but he is being fed wrong information regarding whether or not the website is official and is set in his ways about the content, despite his "RFC" on the issue now being rendered moot. He is also refusing to accept the fact that something that says "Pocket Monsters Official Site" on it is not the official site because he can't read Japanese and he thinks that the screenshot on the page I gave him is fake because he's using an older edition of the games to back up his opinion.—Ryulong (竜龙) 07:05, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Looking now. Worm^TT(talk) 07:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's resolved itself. Also much of the problematic discussion went on on his talk.—Ryulong (竜龙) 07:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that I looked it up on Whois and the website was registered by the official company. It additionally appears on their regular .com website (as Nippon). I think he just got confused. Statυs (talk) 07:47, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Status, that's pretty conclusive. I've was wandering round in google translate, your way works much better! Worm^TT(talk) 07:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I was actually doing that at first, and then I just said "fuck this shit". Statυs (talk) 08:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

There's a "© Nintendo" at the bottom of the page. Also, TL note: ポケットモンスターオフィシャルサイト means "Pocket Monster Official Site".—Ryulong (竜龙) 08:09, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I've seen enough (translating the about us page without images) that I agree it's an official site. Worm^TT(talk) 08:15, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Of course, there is still the fact that Swifty removed the "semi-" from his page.—Ryulong (竜龙) 08:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Retirement templates mean little or nothing on wikipedia, you've been around long enough to know that. Worm^TT(talk) 08:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi all, gotta say Ryulong you went overkill in both these discussions with bad faith and personal attacks. That wasn't necessary and Swifty actually did very well to not do that. You could have explained the issue with him much better than you did in the face of resistance. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hey Jenova, thanks for sticking up for me and giving your opinion on this but I'm pretty much done with the conversation now and it is whatever after talking with Dave and Zach but I do want to apologize to Ryulong cause I do nto see where a personal attack was launched my way. Granted I was upset that I got "cussed at" so to speak and didn't appreciate the language on my talk page but I do not see that as a personal attack and again Ryulong I am sorry that accusation got thrown in. Hope we can all work together on a project more peacefully in the near future but as for now I do not see me sticking around on Wikipedia after the cuss word. But only time will tell. ^_^ Swifty*^talk 09:17, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I did a reread on both your talk page and the Pokemon one. It was "You are just completely out of touch with anything that's been happening in the Japanese games." - i considered that an unnecessary personal attack although i suppose it's just unhelpful and borderline...Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. But I'd have thought it was totally true, anyone who does not speak japanese is likely to be completely out of touch with jap games Worm^TT(talk) 09:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

True...don't know if you noticed by the way but i need your opinion on the BTWF conversation higher up your talk page. Insomesia has asked a question too about the wording. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed. I've got a pretty hectic day today though, so may not reply for a bit. I'm on this evening, and if I don't sort it sooner, I'll comment then. Worm^TT(talk) 10:08, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Okedokie. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Worm That Turned. You have new messages at User:Worm That Turned/Sig Test.
Message added 08:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Statυs (talk) 08:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Adventure: Request for feedback on Community Fellowship proposal

Hi! I'm contacting you because you have participated or discussed The Wikipedia Adventure learning tutorial/game idea. I think you should know about a current Community Fellowship proposal to create the game with some Wikimedia Foundation support. Your feedback on the proposal would be very much appreciated. I should note that the feedback is for the proposal, not the proposer, and even if the Fellowship goes forward it might be undertaken by presently not-mentioned editors. Thanks again for your consideration.

Proposal: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fellowships/Project_Ideas/The_Wikipedia_Adventure

Cheers, User:Ocaasi 16:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Voting rights

What? I can't vote ?? Irontaker (talk) 18:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Where would you like to vote? Generally on Wikipedia we !vote, which means you express an opinion, but what matters is your opinion and reason being supported by Wikipedia policies and the number of say 'Delete's versus 'Keep's does not matter. There can be 10 unsupported Deletes and 1 highly supported Keep and the Keep may be accepted as consensus.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  18:25, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Irontaker is referring to his oppose at Sarah Stierch's RfA. It appears you cannot vote, due to the fact that you clearly registered the account to make that vote. Even if it had stood, it would be discounted by both the closing bureaucrat and the wider community for precisely that reason, along with the fact that you gave no detailed rationale for the vote. Worm^TT(talk) 18:41, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

So, Can I with proper rational ? Irontaker (talk) 18:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Depends on the rationale, I expect. If it's backed up with diffs, and is a reasonable complaint, possibly. Though I can tell you, you will be under exceptional scrutiny by the community and probably checkusers too. Worm^TT(talk) 18:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Opening ceremony

I just have to point out that TV here in America is still referring to the opening ceremonies as if they haven't happened yet. I expect a lot out of you Brits. No spoilers please. On another note, I noticed comments at WT:RFA about the refresh button. Had mine been mechanical rather than a button on my computer it would have been broken by the end of 24 hours. I probably clicked that thing 2000 times. Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:30, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Your's was the one I was thinking of. I haven't seen the opening ceremony - I'm waiting til tomorrow so I can watch with the other half, she's at work tonight :( it means no tv, no news, no chat servers, no nothing! Worm^TT(talk) 22:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised her place of business is even open, unless it's a hospital or other emergency service. I wish I could find the figure somewhere, but apparently Brazil loses a lot of money when its team is playing in a World Cup game because everything shuts down. Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Review

I feel really odd to ask this to someone. Since you commented on my thread at WP talk:RfA, I have gathered enough courage to ask this to you. Can you provide a review about me here, and guide me on what areas should I focus on. I am thinking of applying to RfA within the next 6 months. --Anbu121 (talk me) 23:05, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution IRC office hours.

Hello there. As you expressed interest in hearing updates to my research in the dispute resolution survey that was done a few months ago, I just wanted to let you know that I am hosting an IRC office hours session this coming Saturday, 28th July at 19:00 UTC (approximately 12 hours from now). This will be located in the #wikimedia-office ^connect IRC channel - if you have not participated in an IRC discussion before you can connect to IRC here.

Regards, User:Szhang (WMF) (talk) 07:07, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Ready for an independent article?

Hi Dave. There was a merge of the BTWF article a short (recently some time, maybe 2 weeks?) while ago into the Lady Gaga article and a lot of content was lost. Do you see any obvious issues with restoring a remade and improved article to mainspace when it looks like this? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 18:20, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I really don't like that whole "Florida Family Association" bit at the end, it feels awfully like a coatrack, and certainly not neutral. I would have just put "The donation was criticised by Florida Family Association", if that. Otherwise, the vast majority of the sources aren't reliable, be they PR based, or self published, I'd discount them... Otherwise, it's not that much of an improvement... and I don't think you've added much which would change the consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Born This Way Foundation Worm^TT(talk) 10:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Compare it (the FFA bit) in the recent history with what i wrote and see what you think was better/more neutral. I wasn't in an arguing mood and so i left it til i got more eyes on it.

Thanks for the advice. The referencing method used makes it difficult for me to see the sites used for the sources and makes it take an incredibly long time to even find the reference url itself. I decided to give up on trying and go to bed. Thanks again ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I've partly reverted it but kept the sources. Can you fix the cite issue that has appeared and comment on the wording? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It's still got "the scientific consensus..." which has nothing to do with BTWF. It's 2 steps removed. Like I say, drop the whole bit, at least :P Worm^TT(talk) 14:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That was left in because of a disagreement over WP:WEIGHT somewhere else and i thought it appropriate. I'll take it out. Thanks for looking over it ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Can we discuss it before i do though to clear up my understanding?

Under WP:WEIGHT i've been under the impression that if we mention something on Wikipedia we use the mainstream view, which would be why the claims made by the FFA here are in speech marks:

• The Florida Family Association later accused Office Depot of delivering an "irresponsible message to many teens who would have eventually chosen to be straight" and influencing teenagers to reject heterosexuality for a lifestyle few would have chosen otherwise.

And so because of this i assumed i was best to mention that the scientific and main stream consensus says it is not a choice. (Which got reworded to the current wording).

I see your point of it being coatrackish and so is my understanding there incorrect since i've already put the section in speech marks and so not in the words of Wikipedia? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

This is why I'd leave it at "FFA criticised the payment" if mentioning it at all. Don't go into the reason behind the criticism. If it really is a one-man band, why bother mentioning it? Worm^TT(talk) 15:38, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I thought some of their exact wording merited mention since it was so laughably incorrect and a few news sources picked it up just because of the strange uneducated claims they made. I also felt that made more of a comment on what they are doing than the previous coatrack wording i changed and the readers can interpret it themselves without us spelling it out.

I'll take out the scientific consensus bit. People in this day and age would have to be pretty thick to read that thinking FFA is a defender of morality anyhow. Thanks Dave ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for this comment made at a glance. I haven't read the article; however, I believe the best idea once Jenova does think it is ready is to take it to WP:DRV. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:01, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that Ryan, though i think this article needs about 2-4 weeks more work before it's ready unless i work really hard. Thanks again ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 16:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If the FFA bit is left in at all, at this point the most I think is The Florida Family Association, an one-man Christian fundamentalist organization, criticized Office Depot as influencing teenagers to reject heterosexuality. To give his fringe views any more free publicity seems almost irresponsible. Insomesia (talk) 11:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Opinions staplers? Dave? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

To me it would be like writing an article on an opera house and then mentioning a one-man band that sometimes plays outside. In most cases, the one man band is a distraction and doesn't deserve to be mentioned; however, it the opera house is particularly known for that one man band, or the one-man band has been significantly covered it should be mentioned. In this case, I don't know enough to decide keep or remove, but it will need to be a determination of how important the viewpoint of David Caton is to the foundation. Has it had a significant impact? Is it mentioned in a large number of sources describing the foundation? If not, don't include it. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It was mentioned in a lot of sources and got a decent amount of media attention but mostly because the reasons given by the FFA in their/his attack on BTWF were so outragously and factually just waffle it was a joke. Thanks and don't forget to feed your pug Ryan ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:57, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

---

Nice rewording Insomesia. Dave, opinion? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 22:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm still on the "don't mention it at all" side of the fence, but is there a need to describe him? We wikilink for a reason. Worm^TT(talk) 19:53, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The criticism attracted as much press attention as the partnership with Office Depot, that's why i first thought it necessary. Wouldn't it be unusual to take that sentence out of the BTWF article to put it in the article about the guy who runs the FFA when it's about criticism of Office Depot and BTWF? That seems more coatrackish because we're going from the guy - to his organization - to what it says about others, rather than the BTWF - and what others say about it. That's 3 steps removed...Thanks, i'm more confused now than before...ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 08:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I meant removing "an one-man Christian fundamentalist organization", as if you click on FFA, you find that out very quickly. Assuming the criticism received as much coverage as the partnership, then yes, the rest of it makes sense in the BTWF article. Worm^TT(talk) 09:00, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

YDone - i think i've been misunderstanding your requests but i've done it now. Neutral now yes? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Made a small tweak, and I'm much happier. You just have to prove the AfD wrong now ;) might need a little more expansion. Worm^TT(talk) 09:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'm going to leave it a few weeks for some more work on it first ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:28, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I have to say I object to removing that context. I think it's fair to say most readers wouldn't bother clicking a link to do the research and find out that FFA is in fact just one man, and a Christian fundamentalist, information that is rightfully blurred in a biography. I think it's better to remove any information than present a POV view this this one criticism comes from anything but one extremist who knows how to send out press releases. If we aren't going to duly inform our readers where this wacky criticism is actually coming from then it should be left out altogether. Insomesia (talk) 09:50, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I do see that point of view, but the wording really does take us away from NPOV. How about David Caton, sole employee of Florida Family Association, criticized Office Depot as influencing teenagers to reject heterosexuality. - makes it clear precisely how important they are, without removing neutrality. Worm^TT(talk) 09:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

But the motivation comes from an extremist religious viewpoint and we are whitewashing that. Lady Gaga gets loads of "special" attention from fundamentalists trying to gain attention for their causes. I think we need to be clear this is religiously motivated by a fundamentalist Christian, one so outspoken that the New York Times was compelled to find out who exactly is behind this "Association." To me this ties into Christian fundamentalists funding reparative therapy and other de-gaying ministries. Insomesia (talk) 10:04, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't see it like that Insomesia, it's clear from the statement they gave that they believe homosexuality is a disorder that can be cured, even though medical science says otherwise. I don't think many readers would believe that either since this isn't conservapedia. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The other problem is that the sources aren't saying this. I don't disagree with your analysis, but to link through in this manner is synthesis, and certainly not a neutral way of presenting the information. You are putting spin on it, making readers think in a certain way before reading the fact, and that's not what WP should be doing. We're not trying to soapbox here, we're presenting neutral information for both sides of the debate. Worm^TT(talk) 10:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I think we're being too POV by not adding any context. Similarly if we were discussing Apple, we might easily add it's one of the largest and most influential companies in the world. Someone might click on one of dozens of links in the article and get that information for themselves but it's more likely that they won't. FFA, or more accurately David Caton, is making ridiculous statements but we aren't really expressing that, fine, because no sources have really gone into it as far as I've seen. But the New York Times has researched this issue because of his press releases against the TV show American Muslims. So we have one of the most reputable news sources specifically noting "the man who had manufactured the entire controversy [ ... ] founder and sole employee of a fundamentalist group [ ... ] a person unaffiliated with any established organization on the Christian right [ ... ] [who] often used the tactic of pressuring advertisers on shows he depicted as advocating for homosexuality." Others in the story noted him as a part of "a well-organized extreme right,” and "one fringe individual." To me this makes one-man Christian fundamentalist group an apt, neutral and sourced descriptor to accompany any content associated with the misleadingly-named Florida Family Association. Likewise we could attribute the statement to David Caton, founder of the one-man Christian fundamentalist group Florida Family Association. Otherwise we open the door to other fringe characters who build a website and court controversy much like The Catholic League and other religious based groups do. If it's actual group then great, we contextualize what kind of group it is; a consumer group? a victim-rights group? a LGBT rights campaigning group? Etc. In this case it's a one-man Christian fundamentalist group, if needed we can attribute the context to the New York Times. Insomesia (talk) 08:54, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I see your logic Insomesia. I'm just unsure about this ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Tell you what, why not copy this entire conversation to the talk page of the article (in your userspace), worry about it when you put it live. I'm afraid I can't really be helping out much more here - too much on. Worm^TT(talk) 10:44, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

 Done Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Adoption programme final test.

Hi Worm!

One of my adoptees is fast approaching the final test. When I was copying your course over, I messed up something with the final test. I think it's solved now, but would you mind having a quick check? Also, how do you add extra questions to the test for the practical part? Thanks  Adam Mugliston  Talk  12:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Adam. Looks good. To get the extra questions, you just need to create a page at User:Adam Mugliston/Adopt/Preload/USERNAME whatever the USERNAME is. then you'll need to undo Ryan's edit. Worm^TT(talk) 20:14, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah ok. If I do revert Ryan's edit, what would happen if I wouldn't make the page for /USERNAME ? Would it still work with the main preload? Because I think when Ryan tried that it didn't...  Adam Mugliston  Talk  20:24, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. No, I think you need to make one. I'd have to think about it... but I don't have a solid answer. Worm^TT(talk) 20:30, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, no worries. How do you think I've done with RexRowan? Do you think there's anything else I should challenge him with on the final test?  Adam Mugliston  Talk  20:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, there's a couple of things I would have done differently, some answers I'd have asked for more clarification on. I'm not keen on marking systems in general, which is why I only used them for the final test. But otherwise, no, looks good. Nothing specific I'd add for the final test.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Worm That Turned (talk • contribs)

... First time I've forgotten to sign AND didn't notice I'd forgotten to sign in a long long time. Worm^TT(talk) 08:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Have you got some sort of mark scheme for the final test? I forget to sign loads, then I realise and I get annoyed with myself . Also, I'm a bit worried about another of my adoptees, JoyceK1988. She wanted adoption, because she wanted to learn how to properly write, so she could make sure all information about her company, some Dairy firm in Malaysia, was correct. I immediately got a bit worried about NPOV, but I told her to read it and took her on. She's been working on an article about her company and has been asking for guidance, which I hope I have been giving and recently she submitted the article to AfC, without telling me, but ok. It got declined, due to the reviewing user being worried about NPOV as I said. I'm not sure how to approach that problem now, as I have already explained NPOV twice before. Have you got any past experience with a similar problem or some advice?  Adam Mugliston  Talk  09:10, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I have quite a lot of experience in it, but unfortunately I'm a bit pressed for time, and such things can take quite a while. It's one of the reasons I rarely take on content creators as adoptees, because content creation isn't an area you can teach through my methods. You may want to ask Ryan Vesey for some advice, he works in articles for creation a lot, and would be a really useful person to help you out here. Worm^TT(talk) 09:14, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Alright, as a talk page stapler, I'll assume he'll see this conversation soon enough, but I might drop him a TB.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  09:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, one more thing: How do you mark the join a project question? I can't see how a user could not get 10/10, unless they don't do the question. I've expanded the question, so that the user has to perform a requested task.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  09:27, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, marking system. 10 each for the practical, 5 each for the theory. And yes, the whole point is that you always get 10/10 on the last question. You're not meant to fail the final test, it's designed to be passed. By the time the editor gets to it, all that remains is to boost their confidence, show how good they are and how well they can cope and how much they've learned. It's a pain in the arse to make someone retake it, so make it easy. :P Worm^TT(talk) 09:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That explains it. I guess you have a point, it's not to show what they don't know. So far, to mark the tests, I've been using the answers I gave you and the comments you then made :-)  Adam Mugliston  Talk  09:52, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

• On the topic of JoyceK. Her first step should be to remove Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Dutch Lady Milk Industries Berhad#Products. It should be replaced with a description of the types of products. The awards section should be pared down to only those awards that are referenced in external sources. While primary sources can be used to reference factual information, we need to consider the significance of the awards. One thing I have learned in working with some COI editors is that awards can be purchased. Things like certifications held are not awards. I don't feel that it is necessary to reference the certifications at all; however, if reliable sources mention the company's high quality or mention that it is very environmentally friendly, it might be necessary to create a paragraph or section on those topics. You could also direct her to Wikipedia:WikiProject Cooperation/Paid Editor Help and see if they can give her advice on how to make the article more neutral. Ryan Vesey 14:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Ryan. I also thought the products section was too long and have told Joyce about that before. I also noticed that awards thing. I'm worried about her sticking to NPOV in the future.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  15:25, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Another signature question

Am I correct that the requirement that your signature links to either your user page or talk page refers to an english wiki user page or talk page? If so, can you look at User talk:Ryan Vesey#I read your thread at Jimbo's talk concerning WikiNews, since the editor in question doesn't feel the need to modify his signature? Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think this is a pretty good instance of IAR. If you want to contact that user and he's only really active at WikiNews, then it sounds like a sensible link through. Worm^TT(talk) 19:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Obscene or profane language

"Wikipedia is not censored. However, words and images that can be considered offensive should not be included unless they are treated in an encyclopedic manner."

I hear you on censoring in general, but how does this policy apply in that regard? It seems to suggest that if the offensive content is not encyclopedic, then it is not protected by the policy, and it should be avoided. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Gabe. Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this, but I promised you links on the matter. As it turns out, I don't have any. Well, almost none, certainly none of any use. I was sure I'd seen a whole long discussion, where there was consensus that profanity in and of itself was not uncivil. This dicussion implies it, yet this recent arbitration case implies not.

WP:PROFANE is a content guideline, as it states at the top of the page - so it's based around what you should say in articles. It directs users to WP:CIVILITY, for meta discussions. Now, civility does include "Gross profanity" as an act of incivility, but the problem there is working out what constitutes an act of gross profanity. It's different for every editor. Indeed, that's one of the reasons the civility enforcement case was so contentious. If you haven't read through it, I do suggest you do.

You may ask, since we have do have children on the encyclopedia - marketing ourselves as an educational resource, and we're complaining about the lack of women, why don't we just stop all swearing all together. The problem is that many editors live in social groups where swearing is not only unproblematic, but also the norm. Asking these people to moderate their language, because other people are offended is a difficult request to make, since offense is not necessarily intended. Wikipedia prides itself on not being censored, again causing moderation of language to be a big problem.

Unfortunately, one of the crux issues is what would happen if we DID moderate language. Wikipedians are mostly men between 18-40. They write wikipedia articles as a hobby. If we start moderating language, we start to make things less fun for them, and they will leave. Will they be replaced by other editors? Perhaps, but since they make up the community at the moment, it'll be difficult to persuade them they are doing wrong.

Finally, administrators. Administrators are supposed to hold themselves to a higher standard. Now, I'd rather administrators didn't swear, especially when performing administrator actions, including dispute resolution on ANI and so on. But I don't believe it's part of policy. Worm^TT(talk) 19:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Non-free use

I just came across an example of the question I had about fair-use pictures in articles where the text doesn't refer to the subject of the picture. See File:Banknote with Loul Deng.jpg, as used in the Luol Deng article. The text makes no mention of the bank notes at all. What would your advice be - remove the image, add the information to the text, or something else? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a really good image to be honest, showing how much he's ifnluenced the world beyond his sporting acheivements. Certainly worth adding more text, rather than removing the image. Also, don't forget, there is a little information on the image in the caption. Worm^TT(talk) 07:49, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Cool. I agree. I'll add it to my to-do list. Thanks - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:46, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia log-outs

Anyone else getting logged out multiple times an hour occasionally on Wikipedia? It's happening to me more often and sometimes between logging in and making an edit i'm then told i'm not logged in, which is frankly ridiculous. I can't be the only one, fess up staplers ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Not I. Though, have you logged out recently? if you press log out on one computer, it logs you out on every computer/phone/tablet you've been logged in on. I found that once, really annoying. Worm^TT(talk) 09:32, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Nope, i only use one device at a time and i have never ever used the log-out function. It happened when i posted that message above too. I had logged in about 9:15 this morning and got logged out while trying to save an edit less than 30 minutes later. Same happened yesterday or saturday (i forget which), when i had to reply to someone as an IP because every time i tried to save it i was logged out. I'm only using bog standard windows and firefox and the last time it was my phone using firefox. It's very irritating ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Quick question

Long time no speak! :D hope all is well. Anyways, just quickly, I've made my username invisible on my talk page - am I allowed to do that? Or will I get into trouble? :S Thanks, -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 11:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I can't see why it wouldn't be, as your name is there, but I would suggest making the letters a bit smaller, as they don't fit on my screens, which is conventionally wide, so any older, smaller screens will not show it properly.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  11:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh that is very awkward. I have had that lettering like that for weeks! :/ Shall change it now. Thank you! -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 11:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

You might have a large screen, like an iMac or just a very wide one, but compared to all other less wide types, they're quite rare, so I thought I might tell you as you maybe haven't noticed.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  11:25, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I doubt you'll get told off, but there's always a possibility. I'd suggest you follow my lead and leave your talk page with the name at the top and just remove for your userpage. (PS, it's massively oversized on mine... )Worm^TT(talk) 11:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

"you follow my lead and leave your talk page with the name at the top " ...like everybody elses! I will kiss, and remove all the pretty little colours. Lovely how I realise this now... :P Thank you, both. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 11:32, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, you can make it colourful, just as long as it says who you are. I've made my userpage show WormTT, close to my sig, but I've kept my talkpage as Worm That Turned. Worm^TT(talk) 11:37, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

And, as per usual, I misread what you had said before. However, I'll keep it with no colours, 'cause it looks a little childish ...oh the irony... and I don't currently have a userpage, I'll be recreating one soon. Thanks for that, -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 11:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

3 Adminship removal/sanction discussions

I fear that we're going to start going nowhere fast. There are already 3 different discussions going on about removing adminship/sanctioning admins. Wikipedia:Requests for Comment/Community de-adminship proof of concept, Wikipedia:Request for Admin Sanctions, and now Wikipedia:Requests for removal of adminship. I fear that having similar discussions going on in all three spots will keep consensus from appearing at any of them. Ryan Vesey 21:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, so far, everything is really still in discussion mode. So no consensus is actually being determined as yet afaik. - jc37 22:14, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Risker warned about the same thing, and I started a discussion thread on the RfC page for debate about the two well-formed proposals that are live now. Hopefully everyone will use that and we can re-centralize the discussion. Shadowjams (talk) 06:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I am curious why you're focused on "re-centralising". WTT asked me to add the request for de-sysop proposal to the RFC. Though I do note that everyone seems to have ignored the Wikipedia:Requests for Comment/Community de-adminship proof of concept/Suggestions page... - jc37 06:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I respect Risker's opinion on the matter, and I think it's exactly right. Splitting up the discussion leads to all kinds of tangents that never address root points, it gets people off focus quickly. And while changes to individual proposals ought to happen on their talk pages, that's not true of comparisons or debates about the two. That's my only interest in recentralizing the discussion.

As goes the subpage, I was unaware of it, as apparently everyone else is :), you should probably point it out. Shadowjams (talk) 07:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, subpages really aren't working that well, everything is going on at the proposals subpage. Unless the suggestions subpage was a subpage of the proposals subpage, meaning it stayed transcluded... hmm, I'll have a think about what to do. Ryan, I think Jc37's got it right, the discussion I started was meant as just that, a discussion. The proposals were far too vague to actually be pushed through, they were just to gauge the community's strength of feeling. Now, lots of people are going to bring up pet ideas, which may get some interest. Again, discussion can carry on in the future - we're not looking for answers, we're looking for thoughts. Worm^TT(talk) 07:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Looks like the suggestions page just isn't needed. I've de-linked it. Worm^TT(talk) 10:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Could you take a look please

I am not willing to be sucked in to a debate with your protege Swifty so under the conditions of his mentorship I am approaching you, his mentor.

I made this edit to Unchained Melody, left an edit summary, and gave clear cogent reasons for my edit, on the talk page.

Swifty reverted leaving an irrelevant edit summary, and left a message on the talk. This article is about the song, not Rimes. She is less notable relative to this song than some of the artists down the page where I moved her to from the lead. She does not merit inclusion in the lead IMMHO.

I have reverted Swifty's edit, and left a note on the talk there that I was asking you for comment. Moriori (talk) 03:27, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

---

I also wanted to ask a question also about this, which i just noticed, and if it is allowed for use of copyrighted images in a userpage? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 08:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

No they are not thus please remove them. TheSpecialUser ^TSU 08:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Opps. I don't know if they are allowed the way you have kept. TheSpecialUser ^TSU 08:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Very interesting. It's just a transclusion of Special:ListFiles/Swifty - which we cannot edit. If he were displaying the files, it'd be a definite no-no, but I've no idea how this fits in. Might see if I can get some eyes on it. Good spot Jenova. Worm^TT(talk) 08:59, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I've asked someone who knows more about copyright than me... User talk:Moonriddengirl#Odd non-free content question Worm^TT(talk) 09:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Noticed it by accident but was unsure...Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Citation question

Hi, how do i reuse the same citation over and over in an article? I need to use reference 11 here directly after the "Village Inn" section. I've seen it done but had to resort to copying+pasting and i really should learn properly. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Name the reference. So, when you type <ref>Reference</ref> for the first time, change it to <ref name="REF_NAME">Reference</ref> (whatever you want to put for REF_NAME, just so long as it's unique). Then every time you want to reuse it, you just need to type <ref name="REF_NAME" /> (that last / is very important). It looks for that same reference elsewhere. Worm^TT(talk) 10:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't suppose you could do my example for me in this instance so i can see it better? I appreciate the work here. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Tada! Worm^TT(talk) 11:11, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Riiiiight...I made a mistake in saying it was reference 11 and it was actually reference 10, and you then placed the wrong citation because of this in the "Nightingale" section? I messed up there but thanks to your explanation i think i've got it? Thanks and sorry about that, my bad ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I saw References 12 and 13 were to the same page, which is why I used them. If you look at what I've done, there reference wasn't repeated. Still, hopefully it makes sense for the future - you need one reference named, and then all the others in the short form. Worm^TT(talk) 11:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

They are? Crap! i'll have to try and redo your edit. Thanks Dave, inbetween edit conflicts and interruptions i've made a mess of this. Thanks for the effort you put it, you've been a great help! ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

12 + 13 are different Dave, i've changed the titles to reflect this though as they had strange automatically(?) generated titles before. Kay? ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:46, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Good enough for me :) Worm^TT(talk) 11:49, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Nice revert on Daily Mail - muslim gays are a rarity. Perhaps page protection is an idea after the recent tide of vandalism? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Meh. Not that much vandalism really. Take it to WP:RFPP if you like, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Worm^TT(talk) 11:56, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I suppose 2 vandalism edits a day isn't that bad. When we hit 3 a day i'll consider it...ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Another stumper...reference 5 was a magazine i got on Birmingham Pride 2012 and i cited it as a magazine. I've now found an online copy but want to use both rather than just the one. This is because i don't want to see the online version appear as a dead link in the possible future. your opinion? ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 12:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, there's no problem with that. Just add a |URL=http://... to the cite book template. Worm^TT(talk) 13:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 13:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Last one of the day (promise). Which colour looks better for the article in the tiny infoboxes here? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 13:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd say the pink. But it's really up to you. Worm^TT(talk) 14:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added more. Still the pink? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Given the subject matter, yep ;) Worm^TT(talk) 14:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

...Since you already have the LGBT Barnstar, i present you the LGBT Ribbon. Thanks a lot for your work today (and every other day). ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

New day, new question

here - phone numbers in infoboxes - good or bad? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:52, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I would have said remove it, kill it with fire, get rid and all sorts of things like that, but it begs the question, why is it on the infobox? Worm^TT(talk) 11:56, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well...it's not there anymore. Thanks Dave ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 12:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I've gone to WT:WikiProject Beer regarding the general case. Worm^TT(talk) 13:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

temporary admin trials links

I just re-read your comment above and noticed you offered to supply links for last year's admin trial discussion. Yes, I am interested and still hope to comment, and knowing what was said before would certainly make for a more thoughtful response. Unfortunately RL will remove me from WP soon for an unknown length of time, but I have put something about the project on my talk page so I don't forget. Don't know how you want to handle it, whatever and whenever you come up with will be appreciated. Neotarf (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Certainly. The ones off the top of my head were Wikipedia:RfA reform 2011/Radical alternatives/Pre-RfA Proposal and Wikipedia:Tool apprenticeship. The latter went before the community and had lots of discussions regarding it. Worm^TT(talk) 07:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I have made a note of it. Neotarf (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Adoption

I would like to see a higher integration of your adoption program at WP:WER. Many people have shown an interest in working with new users as a part of WER (and there is one user on the talk page that needs to be adopted) and I think you efforts need to be obvious and more easily found within the project. After all, the Project is just a group of ideas, but programs like yours are the real meat and potatoes that get the job done. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, you're welcome to point anyone you like to User:Worm That Turned/Adopt, but I suspect that's not what you're after. I do need to sit down and sort out WP:ADOPT, a project which I know can be really good, just needs someone to take it by the hand and bring it back to life. I just don't seem to have the time to make that sort of commitment at the moment. Worm^TT(talk) 13:18, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I was planning on working on a proposal for a less intensive process. I can't have 10 adoptees, but I can have a few adoptees plus a couple users who I offer to help. I was thinking of something that was more of a "hey I'm here for you, let me know if you're having difficulties, I'll help show you the way". Then I found Wikipedia:Wiki Guides. I think that the project was about as intensive as I feel it should be on the interaction side; however, the google docs spreadsheet and things like that were too much. I'd like to revive that. What do you guys think? On another note, I was thinking about preparing an RfC on making the 'pedia slightly more social. Sadly, I found Wikipedia:Wiki Guides/Allow socializing. I feel like I'd go about it slightly differently. (My more ambitious plan would be to create a forum on some or every article, but I'd not tackle that in the same RfC). Ryan Vesey13:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Having been an active participant of WikiGuides, let me try to remember what worked. As I recall, 1)it was important to track and be able to evaluate the effectiveness of our interactions with the new editors, 2) the new editors that were chosen had to permit e-mail communication since there was that additional level of "hello", 3) we were given 10, then 20, editors to interact with (and to track) (More if requested), 4)It was alot of work with, for me, only one suceessful retention out of about 60, as far as I know. My memory is poor, so let me check my archives for more info. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC).

Oh, now you mention it, I DO remember doing that. Basically, you'd be given a list of 10 editors at a time, send them all an email and a talk page message, then hope they'd respond. I decided it was a waste of my time and pulled out... Worm^TT(talk) 14:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that's way too much. I'm looking at something a bit different. Do you think I should use the existing framework though or should I try to create something new within WER? Ryan Vesey 14:37, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

In WER, certainly. You can model it on guides, but I think you'll want to disassociate your idea from it. Worm^TT(talk) 14:42, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

It was definetly way too much. But, I'm sure there are many nuggets of gold (info) that can still be mined there. I've got an old Miners hat around here somewhere. I just hope the canary doesn't die. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Anderson High School (Anderson, Indiana)

Was there any useful content on this page at all when it was deleted? Ryan Vesey 14:45, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

No. The full page was "Anderson High School is a public high school in Anderson, Indiana. Their symbol is the Indians" Worm^TT(talk) 14:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, that doesn't appear to qualify for A1 to me. In fact, it would probably have survived AFD today. I just disambiguated a link to it, I might create it. Ryan Vesey 14:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Image copyright

Hi Dave, this user here has some good knowledge and images of the Birmingham Gay Village from long ago and a flickr page with some more here but i'm unsure about the copyright. Are you any good with Flickr? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:57, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Right, well, if you click on any one of the images, eg this one and then scroll down on the right to see the license. If you click on it and see "CC-BY" or "CC-BY-SA", then you can use them. There's actually a bot on commons which helps you upload them... I've used it once or twice. Worm^TT(talk) 15:01, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Remember, CC-BY-(anything other than SA) cannot be used, nor anything that says "all rights reserved". Worm^TT(talk) 15:02, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh brilliant =] I don't like going thorugh the Commons though. I may upload them a bit at a time as i do the others. Do you know about the really old image of "The Roebuck" here also? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:05, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

That's photobucket, and I don't think they're as good at the creative commons thing. Unless you have some reason to believe it was published over 70 years ago, you can't use it. (Try asking the poster to release it under CC-BY-SA) Worm^TT(talk) 15:09, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

By the way, the UK copyright is awesome! Freedom of panorama extends to sculptures/statues so feel free to upload away! Worm, what do you mean by CC-BY-(anything other than SA) cannot be used? There are a number, like {{Cc-by-2.0-uk}} {{Cc-by-2.0}} etc. As a note for flickr, be careful of anything that looks like it might be flickrwashing. This is just a note for the future, these ones seem fine. Ryan Vesey 15:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think he means the version; what he means is if the license has any of the CC modules attached to it other than BY and/or SA. So, a license that's CC-BY-NC (restricted to noncommercial use only) wouldn't be compatible with Wikipedia's license. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that makes sense. I should have realized that. Ryan Vesey 15:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ah, good point. I was referring to to CC-BY-ND, CC-BY-NC... CC-BY-NC-SA... and all the others, not the version of the license. Basically, we can use the top two here. You are right about "flickrwashing", but it's fairly likely that the poster has taken them himself. Freedom of panorama always gets me, there was a big thing about 2d items on a panorama... it just starts giving me a headache. Worm^TT(talk) 15:17, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

You're talking about when 2d items appear within something that would be free according to FOP? Those should generally qualify for de minimis. I.e. you can take a picture of a building with a painting on it, but not a picture of the painting. Don't take my word for it though, I haven't dived too deep into UK FOP Ryan Vesey 15:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't even remember if it's US or UK FOP that was the problem. It was a case of a banner between two buildings, or a bill board or something. In any case, I don't go looking for these sorts of problems :D Worm^TT(talk) 15:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Getting forgetful

Yeah - for probably the first time in about 30,000 talk page messages. Oh well, none of us is perfect. What I am currently trying to do in a roundabout kind of way is to pull the CVU back into a project that has more focus on productive work rather than on building on its own schoolyard-style game of clans, clubs, and hierarchies. If you look at the user pages of most of them, you'll understand my concern. They claim NPP to be within their remit, but heaven help us if some of them start patrolling new pages. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I did it myself a few days ago, and kicked myself over it! I understand your concerns about CVU, I've got a few myself, but I do trust the two admins that hang about in there (Zippy and Yunshui), to not let it get out of hand. NPP does need some fresh blood, and although I know how many problems there have been in the past and how much work needs to go into each patrol, if that can be imparted, I think those enthusiastic editors could be really helpful to the project. Is there an NPP checklist anywhere by the way? As for claiming it in their remit, I was under the impression they had it as an "associated project" and that was just because it's got the word "patrol" on it. Worm^TT(talk) 08:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's probably me typically exaggerating a bit, but their banner does say 'within the scope'. I'm not sure what you mean about a 'check list'. Some time ago (probably 2 years) Scottywong and I completely redrafted the WP:NPP page to turn it into a kind of tutorial. And then I started making a training video for NPP until I was snubbed by the Foundation. Probably best to wait with a proper tutorial now until the Special:NewpagesFeed actually goes live with all its promised features. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:00, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly what I meant, though I am surprised copyright isn't highlighted as a big deal there. Will keep waiting I guess :) Worm^TT(talk) 09:19, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't realise that Cyber is one of your protégés. He's also very active on the CVU project pages. You might find this thread interesting. At WP:NPP, the copyvio checklist is almost right at the top after attack and hoaxes with a yellow triangle. I've added a L2 header and bolded some of the text now to make it stand out more. A couple of weeks or so ago I mentioned that I've placed NPP warnings on some 260 NPPer's talk pages, but Ironholds minimised the effort, and went on to talk about all the pages he has patrolled. This might make you curious, and this, especially the comments by DGG. Oliver claims he tried to talk to me, but I have no recollection of ever seeing him (the one person I wanted to meet) at the conference. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:30, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

He's not exactly, I helped him out a bit when he was starting out (and told him off a bit), and when he asked to be adopted I told him I was too busy. I finally found a bit of space and offered him the course to run through, but he's certainly experienced enough to manage without my help and I can't say I was the one who "made him what he is today" or anything like that. I've seen many of those threads, and read through, but tried to keep out of the who NPP area, it really looks like the sort of place that just sucks your time away and I've got so much to do already! Worm^TT(talk) 11:09, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Having a cabbage day

Hi Dave, this is disruptive editing instead of vandalism right? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:03, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure they intend for it to be helpful, so yep. Worm^TT(talk) 09:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

YSorted. Thanks Dave ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The trick is to use the word vandalism as rarely as possible. You'll never get in trouble for not using the word ;) Worm^TT(talk) 09:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Nice tip there Dave, i'll make great use of that advice. I slept badly and i'm just a bit slow today (more so than usual). I'll be fine later. Have a nice day ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:36, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I've stuck an infobox in Abdomen but i need the latin of the word for it, which i can't find here among all the others. This says it's either "abdōmen" or "abdōminis". Can you help here? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 13:00, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

YDone - no worries ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:29, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

RfA candiates

This page was moved to WP space almost exactly 12 months ago to the day. It's been viewed 2,457 times since then. I wonder if... --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:50, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The Tea Leaf - Issue Five

Stop by for a tasty glass of wiki-iced tea at the Teahouse, today!

Hi! Welcome to the fifth edition of The Tea Leaf, the official newsletter of the Teahouse!

• Guest activity increased in July. Questions are up from an average of 36 per week in June to 43 per week in July, and guest profile creation has also increased. This is likely a result of the automatic invite experiments we started near the end of month, which seeks to lessen the burden on hosts and other volunteers who manually invite editors. During the last week of July, questions doubled in the Teahouse! (But don't let that deter you from inviting editors to the Teahouse, please, there are still lots of new editors who haven't found Teahouse yet.)
• More Teahouse hosts than ever. We had 12 new hosts sign up to participate at the Teahouse! We now have 35 hosts volunteering at the Teahouse. Feel free to stop by and see them all here.
• Phase two update: Host sprint. In August, the Teahouse team plans to improve the host experience by developing a simpler new-host creation process, a better way of surfacing active hosts, and a host lounge renovation. Take a look at the plan and weigh in here.
• New Teahouse guest barnstar is awarded to first recipient: Charlie Inks. Using the Teahouse barnstar designed by Heatherawalls, hosts hajatvrc and Ryan Vesey created the new Teahouse Guest Barnstar. The first recipient is Charlie Inks, for her boldness in asking questions at the Teahouse. Check out the award in action here.
• Teahouse was a hot topic at Wikimania! The Teahouse was a hot topic at Wikimania this past month, where editor retention and interface design was heavily discussed. Sarah and Jonathan presented the Teahouse during the Wikimedia Fellowships panel. Slides can be viewed here. A lunch was also held at Wikimania for Teahouse hosts.

As always, thanks for supporting the Teahouse project! Stop by and visit us today!

You are receiving The Tea Leaf after expressing interest or participating in the Teahouse! To remove yourself from receiving future newsletters, please remove your username here. Sarah (talk) 08:39, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk Page Stalking

I appreciate the stalking. As you can see, my talk page gets a lot of traffic, and I actually try to steer things there instead of ANI, and depend on stalkers to help solve issues. And yes, you and I agree on ANI and many other things. Feel free to stalk any time, I trust your judgement as I would my own. I would give you a key, but the door is always unlocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:06, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I've got it on my watchlist, and will try to respond when I can. Generally though it takes me so long to look into a dispute that I don't get involved! It's exactly why I don't have ANI on my watchlist... Worm^TT(talk) 11:46, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Copyrighted poster, some advice?

I recently found out that File:Birha Ki Raat (1950) - Hindi film poster.jpg is PD in India but not in the US. My adoptee isn't too happy, and I'm wondering if you can think of any way it could be used with a FUR on Nargis or Dev Anand. Perhaps a derivative work could be created, showing only the two of them? That might make it appropriate as a subject of commentary of the two of them acting together. I'll work on creating Birha Ki Raat because I'm sure it can be used there. Ryan Vesey 19:13, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Argh, that's a pain. Yeah, I've not actually come across situations where it's PD in one country but not in US. I don't agree with the derivative work idea, FUR would allow it to be used on Birha Ki Raat, but not necessarily on the actors pages, unless there's commentary on that film in particular. I'm going to have to defer to WP:MCQ I'm afraid! Worm^TT(talk) 12:04, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Precious

	support
	Thank you for your generous support wherever it's needed, adopting mentees, proposing candidates, supporting them ("a knack for saying the right thing and getting stuff done"), helping fellow editors to get out of WP:Great Dismal Swamp, - you are an awesome Wikipedian! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I've got to say, I never thought I'd end up with one of those! Thanks Gerda :) Worm^TT(talk) 11:38, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Need Adopting :)

But I am not sure this is the right time, but I just wanted to let you know that I do need some help.~ty (talk) 04:46, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tylas! Great to meet you. I am a touch busy at the moment, so I may not be the best choice for an adopter, there are an awful lot of other editors out there who would be able to spend a little more time with you. However, having said that, I'm a sucker who finds it very hard to say no to people who are asking for help, so if you would like to carry on with someone who might not answer immediately then let me know :) Worm^TT(talk) 07:22, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I hope Worm won't mind me making this link a little more prominent, but all the adoption lessons are at User:Worm That Turned/Adopt under a collapsible box labeled "Lesson Book". I bookmarked this page long ago, intending to go over the copyright lesson if I ever got to the point of uploading images. Someone who is accustomed to independent study may be able to do this course on their own, or alternatively, use it to identify and review unfamiliar areas.Neotarf (talk) 08:41, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Neotarf, that's a good point. I really do need to go through and update a couple of the lessons and add a few more, but there's a lot of very useful stuff in there. Worm^TT(talk) 08:58, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Neotarf! :) ~ty (talk) 15:11, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you are worth waiting for Dave. :) ~ty (talk) 15:01, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

How very kind of you. Whether or not you'll still say that when you're sitting and waiting... ;) Worm^TT(talk) 15:08, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I am good with waiting. I was worried about the time involvement myself. This should work out perfectly!~ty (talk) 15:10, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Who is next...

Per this. Have you taken a look at Writ Keeper? He's got an excellent CSD & Prod log and shows a lot of clue. He's helpful and appears to be knowledgeable on the admin side of things. His drawbacks are that he's not been here an entire year yet and only 1000 of his 8000 edits have been to article space. I noticed that he didn't leave a note here after this revert. That's common, but not necessarily good because it appeared to be a good faith edit. (Note that he didn't revert as vandalism) Usage of AGF revert here. Didn't leave a note though. I've yet to find a revert tagged as vandalism that wasn't. In any case, what do you think? Nominate? Wait until a year? Wait until there are more article space edits? I haven't talked to Writ keeper about this, but did notify him of this comment. Ryan Vesey 18:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Hah, Worm actually has emailed me about this not too long ago. He and I were in agreement that I'm probably not ready for an RfA yet, as was User:Drmies, who I met at Wikimania; my biggest flaw is probably that I have almost no real content work. (I'm hoping to change that this weekend, but dunno how that will work out; we'll see. I would hope that my CSD record and/or DR experience would help to counteract some of that, but still.) I'm not really averse to running anyway, even if I don't have a huge chance of success; I like to think I have a pretty thick skin, so I don't think I would take failure poorly. But the time certainly ain't optimal, as far as things go. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

See this, if you want to tag team on one of those (hopefully) GA's or the DYK/GA with me, you are more than welcome. Belchfire is assisting me with Doterel right now. Ryan Vesey 19:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I emailed Writ Keeper last month, just before Mr. Stradivarius. I do think he'll make an excellent admin, I'm just not 100% certain he'd pass an RfA at the moment. I'm hoping to nominate him in the not so distant future. :) Writ, if you are interested in thost topics, jump on it! Worm^TT(talk) 08:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	Gotta hand it to you mate. Yeah, who'se gonna be next? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:04, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I've got two or three people who should be ready in the next couple of months... I'm just wondering if I can find someone who's ready now! Worm^TT(talk) 13:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Need a preference on Punjabi wiki

Hello, admin! I need your help. There is a preference/option to add [edit] link to the lead section on English wiki. I want the same on Punjabi wiki (pa.wiki). Can you please help? Thanks. Tari Buttar (talk) 02:08, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you know how to change the preference on the English wiki? If you do, it should be the same on the Punjabi. If you can't find it on the Punjabi, that could mean that function is not enabled on the Punjabi wiki. If you don't know, where the preference is on the English Wiki, say so and we will help you find it.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  07:01, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

No dear, its okay for English wiki. I know it better but all I'm trying to say is that there is now Gadgets setting in preferences on Punjabi wiki. How can it be installed? Tari Buttar (talk)

Ah! I get what you mean now. I think you will have to create an enabling page, but I'll try to find out exactly what for you. If not, you might have to wait for Worm to come in or maybe Ryan.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  07:21, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Have a look at this: WP:Gadget. It should be the same for the Punjabi.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  07:22, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I think Adam's said exactly what I would! Sorry I can't help more, might be worth asking the question on Meta, or on the Punjabi WP... Worm^TT(talk) 09:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Scooby-Doo (anyone is welcome to comment here)

Okay I am having an issue on the Talk:Scooby-Doo page here. I have a problem with posting a bonus/special feature on a DVD in section geared for things that aired on TV and now he wants to play this weak argument to get his way by saying that nothing should be posted in the "TV specials and animated telefilms cause he is claiming it aired on TV without a source and I have looked and have found no reliable source to back his claim. And I have pointed out to him several times that a DVD bonus feature is not the same as a TV special or an animated telefilm and to post an advertized (on the DVD as an) episode that was released on a DVD is not as a TV special or a animated telefilm is misleading. Can I get your input (everyone else is welcome to input as well). ^_^ Swifty*^talk 00:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to get too involved in a content dispute, when I'm really not interested in the subject. I'd suggest following suggestions from this module... Worm^TT(talk) 09:52, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Template for younger editors

See User talk:Kiefer.Wolfowitz#Age template. Ryan Vesey 03:17, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

You've come to the right place! :) I know Worm has strong views on this, and I've also discussed it recently with another editor who shares a little of my background in dealing with these sorts of issues. One thing to start off with; think about whether the existing advice essay is good, bad, perfect, or what. Then think about whether it's easier - if that essay is good or better than good! - to just send a single one-line neutral suggestion to read it, not a complicated template. I've seen welcomes to younger editors that are so full of "gosh, we're so glad to see you here, and excited!" that the recipient (or their parents) might really be wondering what on earth is going on. Equally, some with more than a dozen links to policies, in that welcome.

To put it another way, if the welcome message is going to include a significant amount of additional information, beyond what will be found in the existing essay, then it has to be tailored for age, or maybe even tailored for recipient, and in that case, what's the point in a template? Keep it to one line, and perfect the essay instead. Make it inviting, easy to read, thorough, and covering all the right points in all the right places.

Are there things that are vital to mention to a younger editor on their talk page? If so, identify what they are, and have the link to the essay alongside them. But keep it short, and neutral. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:56, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Well this isn't a small subject, and as Demiurge1000 says, I do have some strong feelings on this. I'd be happy to help out, if I can find the time. Worm^TT(talk) 09:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Sig color

Do you know what color the default sig is? I'd like to modify that so it doesn't appear in black on my talk page. In addition, do you think that would affect users with their settings in green on black? Is there a solution for this? Ryan Vesey 18:36, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

It is just a blue link in regular text, with links to the user page and talk page. Rcsprinter123 (talk) 09:27, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I think Rcsprinter's got it right. The standard signature is just a standard wikilink. The colour is whatever your browser uses for a link. Wikilinks go black and bold if they are self-referring (eg a sig on it's own talk page), or red if the page does not exist. I believe the blue link they use is #0645AD... Worm^TT(talk) 09:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Editor review

Hiya, Worm! I noticed that you gave helpful feedback at this editor review to someone who was considering whether or not to apply for adminship. I've been thinking about doing the same thing (we're probably talking about years in the future though, not months), and I was hoping you could do something similar for me at my editor review. There's no rush or need, but I felt your comments gave some pretty good insight so I decided to drop you a line. Nomader (talk) 13:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Will do. I've got two emails to sort out first... but I'll get there! Worm^TT(talk) 13:16, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch! And take your time, these things usually take months to run through. Nomader (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, it was just what I was looking for. Nomader (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

No problems. Have a go in the back end of Wikipedia for a while, give me a shout if you get confused! Good luck Worm^TT(talk) 09:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Quick Neutrality Question

Hi Worm. Is this neutrally worded considering it's from Citroen directly? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. Worm^TT(talk) 09:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

YIssue resolved - Thanks and have a nice day ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I remember nice days... Worm^TT(talk) 10:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Life is a bitch, and then you die. If you can get a couple nice days in there then that's brilliant. Maybe looking at this pug will cheer you up on this nice sunny thursday? ツ Jenova20 (email) 10:56, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Ha, Cheers Jenova. Just annoyed with work, that's all :) I'll get over it! Worm^TT(talk) 10:58, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Cool, lucky Wikipedia is around to distract you from work =P Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:43, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

RfA stuff

Hi Dave. interesting. However, if I had caught it in time, I would have blocked on the spot, probably for at least month. Time for some people to start learning. Enough is enough, and everything has been tried. And tried, and tried, and tried... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, yes yes! I would love if that attitude would instantly fill everyone on Wikipedia. Ryan Vesey 02:41, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't remember if I saw it at the time or not, it was reverted very quickly. However, I do remember reading Hersfold's comments, so I may have seen it. Given your outspoken views on Keepscases, I think you blocking him would be a bad idea, though that diff is not a pleasant one, a direct personal attack. I'm not a fan of blocking for Civility^TM, including personal attacks - we accept that blocks reduce civility (because we allow an amount of ranting on talk pages), so a block for civility is akin to sorting an edit war by reverting. Worm^TT(talk) 07:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

This is a rather special case, because it's also a disruption of a serious process. A process that one editor has set out to disrupt systematically for years, and doesn't contribute to any other part of the encyclopedia. A process that we have tried very hard to get cleaned up, and almost getting there. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Can I point you to User:Worm That Turned/List of questions? I did some long analysis on Keepscases, (now deleted) and I certainly didn't find his questions to be that disruptive. I really don't see the problem with that editor - his questions are rarely disruptive, just different. Worm^TT(talk) 08:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Poor Man's Talk Back

I replied to your post on Ryan Vesey's talk page. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:54, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks like Arcandam has retired after your block, so my involvement in the whole mess ends there. Thanks for your help with that. Take Care...Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't like seeing editors retire, but the block was necessary. Hopefully he'll have a change of heart, either way at least everyone can move on now. Worm^TT(talk) 09:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the retirement was done in haste and he will be back. I was honestly trying to defuse the situation on the talk page but I seem to have made it worse, for that I am sorry. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Was this block due to what he was saying about me or due to the disruptive editing on other users' talk pages? I'm just curious because the editnotice on my talk page does say that I can take venting, so blocking him for taking me up on it does not really seem fair. On the other hand, if it is due to his taking it out on others, then I understand. (Personally, I wish that the others had not jumped to my defense since that only escalated the situation.) Reaper Eternal (talk) 11:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

@Reaper: Actually I was going to Ryan's defense and trying to defuse the situation, but failed on both. :( I was unaware the comment was about you else I would have went to your defense (and probably still failed). - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:57, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Reaper, it wasn't due to the venting on your page, but a general refusal to disengage after making many personal attacks (I counted over half a dozen accusations of trolling, something he was aware could be interpretted as a personal attack), also combined with the fact I'd warned him over similar behaviour about a month ago. In fact, I didn't think he behaved problematically on your page at all. You are right that others jumping in was what escalated things, and annoyingly I've seen it happen before with some of those editors. If I do see it again, it's going to have to be a formal warning or a block. Worm^TT(talk) 12:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I understand why you took action. Thanks for clarifying! I had removed rollback due to the pattern of edit warfare, including a previous block for edit warring, and the agregious misuse to edit war and remove TDA's messages. As an aside, does "If I do see it again, it's going to have to be a formal warning or a block." refer to the blocked user or the ones jumping in? Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The ones jumping in, not all of them, but some. Worm^TT(talk) 12:12, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Understood. Good luck! Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:17, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to both you and Worm that it had to come to that. Had I known, I wouldn't have dealt with it in the first place. Ryan Vesey 12:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Related Question

Worm, a related question on this whole thing. Since my "everything find your corner and chill" approach hasn't worked in many different cases, exactly how do you get a user's attention (or multiple users), get them to chill out and stop bickering? Everytime I try to help, this seems to happen. What am I doing wrong? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:20, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Basically, it won't work because telling someone who is angry to calm down is like throwing cold water in his face—it will just make him angrier at you. I've found that the best way to deal with angry editors (normally mad at my administrative actions), is to ignore their anger and either post calm replies to questions while ignoring the insults, or, if that proves too difficult, to simply let them calm down by themselves and then discuss. Hope this helps. Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, that's a good question. This post was good except one thing. Calling a person a troll is never going to help matters. If they are trolling, they'll come back with renewed vigour, if they're not, they'll get defensive and come back with renewed vigour. Otherwise, go and find your corner and chill doesn't really work very often unless you've got something to back it up with, ie a block button. Non-admins are stuck with the difficult job of reasoning with the editors in question, or calling in an admin. The only other thing I might say is that you need to know when to give up, when it's clear that you're not going to do any good, just stop replying. I hope that helps in some small way! Worm^TT(talk) 12:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

So it is my approach. I tend to go to the blunt, immediate response rather than the calm response. I think that comes from my Aspergers (people with Autism are typically blunt). Thanks for the responses, I will try to not be as blunt next time. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)