User talk:Supersaiyan

Headline text

Thank you! Eid Mubarak! — goethean ॐ 22:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Vacationing?

Long time no message! Shivraj Singh 15:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Im back!

Have a look on the page bro, Im back andvery much here. I have read somewhere that when 2 parties are constantly engaged in any dispute, at some point somewhere, they do almost miss the other when their no longer around. This feeling from your side is fully appreciated and mutual bro. No hard feelings outside of the article (or even inside in fact)you have your beliefs, I have mine. But it's good to hear from you, you do amuse me somewhat,lol. :) --Raja 22:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Your Question

Raja,

Rajputs and Jats have some similar gotras. In fact gurjars and rajputs also have some similar gotras. They way a gotra started was usually from the name of person. For example progeny of Kumpa (a rathore) were referred to as Kumpawat. Note Kumpawat is a join of two words: Kumpa (name of the person) + Vats (a hindi word which means children) so kumpawat is literally children of kumpa. Some Gotra's do not use the word Vats they just use the name of the progenitor as in the case of Khokhra/Khichi/Hara/Deora etc. Others use the combined style as in Ranawat (Maharana Pratap's descendants)/ Kumpawat/ Sangawat etc.

Similarly in western world you will find lot of names like Johnson. These follow similar logic i.e sons of John.

Khokra are a shakha of rathore rajputs who descended from Rao Khokhra, an ancestor of present day Jodhpur/Bikaner royal houses. There are multiple possibilities how jats and gurjars have similar surnames as rajputs.

a) If you look at today's rajput villages in India, besides rajputs there are other people in the village like Teli (people who extract oil), julaha (weavers), gadariya (cow herds) and some more. Not all but some of them actually put the surname of the rajput clan of that village at the end of there name. Since Jats and rajputs lived in the same villages in rajasthan (In fact there living quarters were not close to each other. Jats mostly lived in houses close to the fields they tilled) it is possible some Jats started using the same surname as the rajputs of that village.

b) Since Jats and rajputs were in the same region they would have seen how rajput gotra's start i.e from a person so it is entirely possible they followed a similar style. Also, even today, people tend to name there children after "known persons" of history. If we take an example: Say Rao Khokhra was an important rathore ruler in medieval rajasthan. It is probable that some jats in villages where Khokra ruled could have named there children Khokra and if this child's progeny thrived they all could have used the patrynomic khokra. Shivraj Singh 05:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Motyal

Raja Can you ask your friend what part of India is he from? Shivraj Singh 09:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Raja,

In general rajput surnames do not end with 'yal'. Though there is one rajput clan "Mohyal". I am not sure if Motyal and Mohyal are same. In mountains of India there are lots of Brahmans whose surname end with yal. E.g: Nautiyal, Ghildiyal, Thapliyal etc. I did do a google search on the name motyal and I did find a couple names with this surname. If your friend can send these people an email perhaps they can answer him back if they are rajputs. I would also be curious to know the answer. Shivraj Singh 19:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Raja,

Actually in the paragraph above it should read Mohil and not Mohyal. Mohil are chauhan rajputs. Mohyal on the other hand are brahmins from Punjab.

Have not heard about rutyals either. Shivraj Singh 19:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Raja,

Not heard about rutala also. Shivraj Singh 19:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

thanks

thank you Raja; I admit I feel vindicated now that the behaviour of the users I criticized has been considered unacceptable by the arbcom too. Now, just because some editors' behaviour was really bad doesn't mean that everybody else's was impeccable. My own temper was on the point of slipping, sometimes, too, and I did apologize for that to the amount I considered suitable. And I must remind you that everybody is under the same obligation of providing precise sources for their claims, and to listen to other viewpoints with patience and good faith. The point of this exercise cannot have been to bully the Hindu viewpoint out of the debate, but to prove that the community is strong enough to deal with bullies, even if they appear to outnumber good faith editors at a particular debate. I am convinced that you are prepared to welcome to the debate and treat fairly Hindu editors even if they have viewpoints you absolutely disagree with. I do hope the air will clear up on Talk:Rajput now, and that the differring views can be documented next to each other in a spirit of collaboration rather than confrontation. regards, dab (ᛏ) 08:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Bhola

Hello Raja.

Thanks for the kind comments.

Yes, I tried to fork the article on the Rajput page. I was 'being bold'. I still think that my idea is a good one. The article, as it is now, is communally exlusive (and loaded with chauvinistic rhetoric), and in my opinion such a communally exlusive article should have a title that expresses that the content is communally exclusive. I think that the main 'Rajput' article should be communally neutral.

Were it up to me, there would be one communally neutral article entitled 'Rajput' which would discuss Rajputs in general, and which would link to communally specific articles such as 'Hindu Rajput', 'Muslim Rajput', and 'Sikh Rajput'. It could also link to regionally specific articles like 'Rajputs of Panjab', 'Rajputs of Rajasthan', 'Rajputs of Haryana', etc.

As for my references, I listed them on Talk:Rajput. I believe that the figures I cited can be corroborated, but I would have to go to the library to refer to some very old, and very heavy volumes to get the specific statistics.

You asked if I wouldn't mind contributing some wording that I used to the Muslim Rajputs article. Which wording were you thinking of?

Bhola 22:19, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi

Raja, tell me if there is anything wrong or insensitive in what I have written about Muslim Rajputs. The capitalization and hyphen points are totally unintended and clearly Bhola's own complex. Otherwise tell me is there something wrong? Regards, ImpuMozhi 05:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Raja, I left this message on my own talkpage just now, but I am going to archive that page (too long), so I refer you to it.

On another note, can you put together 2-3 lines refering to the community, to be included on the Rajput page, and refering readers to the Muslim Rajputs page for details. I feel that Bhola's somewhat defensive rants in the "demographics" section belong, if anywhere, then on the latter page. This issues should be resolved soon, before the socks reappear. Regards, ImpuMozhi 00:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Janjua

Hope this helps. - Jmabel | Talk 17:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

i responded to your tanoli post on pashtun talkboard have a look. --Zak 13:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. Can u please tell me how to register as a wikipedia editor as u have suggested.

Thanks but....

Asalam-o-Alikum

thanks but I dont like being here anymore :|

right now i am try to concentrate on urdu wikipedia, perhaps I think you should also join us there!

Wisesabre 04:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your kind words. Yup, I took all of them. --Incman|वार्ता 13:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Need your help on the Cheema article

Hi, seems like you have some understanding of clan of India and Pakistan, am I wandering if you know anything about the Cheema clan and also if you can help expend this article. --Street Scholar 14:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I will gather all my sources. --Street Scholar 10:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks nice see: [1] we might aswell continue the discussion there. --Street Scholar 12:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Sudhan

Is there someway you can have the Sudhan site protected so that only registered users can edit it, now someone takes out the whole issue of Sudhan rebellion against Pak army which is a fact

trueblood 03:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The same person you had from leeds keeps on doing the same thing, now he is using sock puppets to keep the same nonsense about Pathans. He uses the name Sadozai Khan than Sadozai cant he be warned or banned for a while

trueblood 04:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to add the citations but dont know how ? can you explain as the references for the sources are listed below in the article for the origin of this tribe

how do you connect the top in a citation to the bottom at references ?

trueblood 03:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear Raja:

I am not sure what to do, this one person keeps on destroying the article, I have tried to clean it up but this person has not use for discussion

Rehara1 02:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Matore

Hi Supersaiyan,

I was just curious as you edited my article about Matore. Could you please introduce yourself? and if you know more about Matore history, could you please contribute it to my article.

Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Qaisar raja (talk • contribs) 15:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Hey

Hey I got yo message on mah talk page don't wury won't apun' again.Lil'Khan 01:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply Question

Wallaikum Assalam brother, Infact there are more than half a donzen of theories about Pashtun, and I am quite sure, that you are well aware of those, maority of them are based on just folklores like once upon a time or some says, even you can see a book "Twarikhe Hafiz Rehmat Khan", which is considered to be a land mark in Yousafzais history but it's really very hard to believe on those events as truely happened, it is like Hafiz Khan had been making a movie on the back of his horse with a camera on his hand behind one of the Jahangiri sultan and was watching yousafzai chiefs also. Anyways Pashtun is pashtun by his language, culture and heritage, Mughals have never reckoned them as Pashtuns or nor they have ever adopted Pashto language as their mother tongue, or I have never heard, if they had practiced Pashuniat aswell. But let me tell you an interesting thing about a Mughal Khel in Ghalji tribe as it's section, interesting isn't it ? Thanks. Haider 22:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Wallaikum Assalam Raja, Infact I don't have much information about that Mughal khel, that why they have adopted that name on them but interestingly there must be some relative chances like histroy ancestor, otherwise who thrusted mughals as a section name in Pashutns but here I would also like you to take your attention on great Ghaljis or Ghilzais, who are also considered Turks by majority of the historians, but now as Pashtuns by their culture and language, as I have told you earlier aswell. I don't believe that Mastermind and creater of such a great nation could just be a one man like Qais Abdul Rashid, while historically nations could not be created by just one man, and some historians mentions him as Pashtuns symbolic progenitor, which denied his authority as real progenitor and proves him more controvercial. Being a student, Yes I know that very few tribes have forgotten their mother language esp the Jadoons of Abbottabad and Tareens of Haripur, but surprisingly I have found some rapid improvements to get their language back by speaking pashto amongst them. Thanks. Haider 23:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Awan

I’ve included the following on the ‘Awan’ discussion page, but in case you miss it, I am reproducing the contents here:

Hi Raja

Thanks for your sensible and helpful response – I appreciate it, bro.

It’s interesting that you mention sources detailing the oral traditions of the Awans (in regard to their origins) should be cited, because one of these sources, Glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and NWFP by H.A Rose, is already referenced in the article. In fact, if I am not mistaken (I read the book some time ago), Rose even produced a generic family tree that is applicable to all Awans, irrespective of clan divisions within the tribe. Evidently this information was based on oral histories and traditions transmitted by the Awan tribe over the course of centuries and referred to by Rose.

Rose’s work is so thorough that I actually have a photocopy of a couple of pages from his book that provide a rudimentary family tree, of sorts, for the Golera (an Awan clan that my mother belongs to. My father is a Qutbshahi Awan, and although I mention this, it really doesn’t make any difference to me. Yes, I take some pride in my tribal identity, but I have not lost sight of the fact that I am a human being first and foremost and thus do not view any group as being superior to another). To give you an idea of how complete Rose’s work is, below is what he has to say about the Golera:

“GOLERA, a tribe which gives its name to the tract in Rawalpindi so called. It is descended from its eponym, the third son of Qutb Shah, and in Sialkot has four branches, Golera, Kahambarah, Dengla and Mandu.”

“According to Cracroft the Golera are Awans, a statement confirmed by their claim to descend from Qutb Shah.”

I don’t possess the technical know-how that would enable me to reproduce the tree for the Goleras outlined by Rose which illustrates the various branches of the Golera clan, but mention is made of the names Golera (obviously), Bindu, Tar and Banjur (descended from Bindu branch), Dengla and Mandu (descended from the Tar branch), Bharahwin, Samduh and Singi (descended from the Banjur branch) and Kahambarah (descended from the Singi branch).

The Punjab Gazetteer, Jhelum District, 1904, Punjab Castes (both of which I have quoted from earlier) and the Punjab Census Report, 1911, also make reference to the traditional claims of the Awans vis-à-vis their origins. Another work that I have alluded to earlier, Punjabi Musalmans by J.M. Wikeley, if I remember correctly, also makes mention of the Awan’s traditional claim that the nascent progeny of Qutb Shah and his sons, who were born of Hindu mothers (i.e. following Mahmud of Ghazni’s conquest of Northern India), adopted names that corresponded to the tribes and clans their mothers belonged to (and many of those who belong to certain Awan clans, claim that their clans are named after these particular ancestors).

Having taken on board the points you have made, I will cite in the article the relevant sources that I have just mentioned and furthermore, I will also add that Kaul actually stated the Awans may also be of Jat origin (not solely Rajput as presently stated by the article). Following a detailed analysis, Kaul states of the Awans in the Punjab Census Report, 1911:

“The theory of their Jat or Rajput origin, therefore, seems to be the most plausible.”

I do not want to stress this point unduly though, because of the reference the article makes to Dorning’s findings. And as you concede, full citations cannot always be provided for oral histories and traditions, but this does not necessarily mean that these traditions should be discounted and in the case of the article, their inclusion is important and valid; essentially, what I’m stressing is that reference to oral and tribal traditions, in relation to the origins of the Awans, should not be excluded.

As for the British officer’s book that I previously mentioned (and on reflection, he may actually have served in the British Indian Civil Service, rather than the British Indian Army), I understand your concerns and have decided that until I am able to get hold of this book, it would be best to alter the wording of the article so that it indicates that the Awans were heavily recruited by the British during the First and Second World Wars (which cannot be disputed), rather than make unreferenced and conclusive statements regarding the number of Awans that were recruited to the British Indian Army during this period of time. Once I have the book in my possession, I will then be in a position to reproduce the author’s comments, or at the very least, draw upon his comments and be able to point to specific source material. However, I should add that SOAS is my alma mater and as such, it may be a matter of weeks, even months, before I am able to get hold of the book.

It’s clear that the comments regarding Awans, along with Rajputs, occupying the highest ranks of the Pakistani military, are cause for confusion. I actually believe that the editor of Al-Awan was trying to make the point that Awans serving the Pakistani military are to be found occupying many of the highest ranks, as opposed to occupying the highest ranks, period. It is a matter of semantics, but there is a subtle difference between the two statements as the latter can be construed as blanket statement indicating that Awans occupy (even to the extent of exclusivity) the absolute uppermost posts in the Pakistani military, e.g. Chief of Army Staff. This of course is not the case and as you have correctly underlined, Awans occupy a variety of ranks within the Pakistani Army (including senior-most ranks), and of course, the same holds true for other groups serving in the Pakistani armed forces that are also recognised as ‘martial races’. Anyhow, I will alter the wording of the article in order to reflect this, a change that you have acknowledged needs to be made.

I realize that Wikipedia is open to abuse, but I provided the link to the article on Timur because I thought you may be able to trace the author of the comments pertaining to Ilyaas Awan Alvi and perhaps ask him to provide proof for the comments he made. As am I hesitant about completely removing comments made by others, particularly as in this case the comments could possibly be justified, perhaps it would be best if I added a citation request tag.

Once again, thanks for you constructive comments and especially for volunteering to be provide assistance. Like you, I enjoy reading up on the history of the great tribes of the Punjab and I must add that your article on the Janjuas carried by Wikipedia, is excellent. I can honestly say that apart from the Awans (obviously I am biased, LOL!), of all the Punjabi tribes, it is the Janjuas, a very fine race, that I respect the most and it’s heartening that a member of your tribe, Amir Khan (whom I’m a fan of), is proving to be a great role model for British Pakistani youth. By the way, have you read the Men’s Health interview with Amir where he refers to his Janjua origins? Malik Awan 1 22:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi

Wa alaikum asalaam Raja

Let me begin by thanking you for your message. It’s nice to see that we both have a great deal of respect for each other’s tribes.

Bro, you’re clearly a good bloke who would not deliberately vandalise articles carried by Wikipedia, so you really don’t need my permission to add information to the article on the Awan tribe! Anyway, we are all free to contribute to Wikipedia as we see fit and if there are those who only intend to be a nuisance or if disputes do arise between various contributors, then we are all in a position to debate matters in a mature and sensible manner and make any necessary alterations to the articles found on this website.

As for which side of Pakistan I’m from, I was actually born and bred in the UK and continue to reside in London (my birthplace). However, I take equal pride in my British and Pakistani roots. My father’s ancestors happened to belong to that section of the Awan tribe that one of the early Emperors of Delhi brought with him from the Salt Range and settled in Jalandhar (now in Indian Punjab). My mother’s roots lie in Rawalpindi, but at some point in time, her ancestors shifted to Hoshiarpur (now in Indian Punjab) where, about seven generations ago, a village called Musahibpur (it still exists) was founded and named after her ancestor, Musahib Khan. Following the creation of Pakistan, both my mother and father’s families settled in Lahore, where the majority of my relatives continue to reside. Basically, I am a Londoner and a Lahori, LOL.

The Amir Khan article that I mentioned was featured in the December 2006 issue of Men’s Health (UK). The author of the article/interview is Kevin Mitchell, who mentions in the introduction to his article:

“Khan, whose name means ruler and whose antecedents are the warrior clan of Janjua Rajput, has worlds to conquer.”

If you are unable to get hold of the issue of Men’s Health that carries the interview with Amir Khan, then feel free to drop me a line I can send you a scanned copy of the article.

Regards Malik Awan 1 21:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

hey there

Hi!

Thank you so much for the barnstar! Your kind words and encouragement mean a lot to me :)

My best regards,xC | ☎ 05:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Supersaiyan

Intothefire 13:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC) Please read my note for you on the Awan Discussion page . CheersIntothefire 13:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Supersaiyan your edit of 1 june

“until cited evidence is provided (not theories but proof) for Awans being Khatri, or of previous Hindu faith, it should NOT be included here as a Khatri group, thanks”

Supersaiyan I see that you are an Awan and have a personal stake in the veracity of information provided with regard to your clan . I have no evidence other than the books available on the subject , when I provided the entire text from the book on the Awan discussion page , I was meaning to substantiate the basis of my listing . I do have various other references from simillar books that are often cited on wikipedia geneological subjects and this includes information related to the Awans . However in deferences to your contention I have changed the listing .

I hope we can exchange information later on the subject as we seem to have a common interest ,

CheersIntothefire 05:42, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. However, I am a Janjua Rajput and not an Awan. But I have great respect for people also, especially the Awan tribe. My respect is what makes my work passionate, thats is where the beginning and end of personal stake ends. The source you provided did not make this point clear at all. Thanks again.--Raja 11:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Raja

My response to your post on my talk page . For the sake of clarity your text is in bold

1)Your comment "But simply stating one sided cases and articles trying to remind them of their ancient heritage does, as Malik Awan stated, ignore their current Islamic identity which they predominantly hold more dearer than their lineal identity.

You are correct in this statemet I agree wholeheartedly .

However a predicament :If there must be a judicious use of sympathetic judjment on the part of wikipedian contributors to this subject when bringing to light facts(no quotes from books sources already used to substantiate the opposite) , what should be the politically correct stand to be taken ...
a)provide the other quotes that run in the face of established mythification .
b)not provide the quote or facts so that no one is hurt .
c)Just leave wikipedia and go away !!

The stand should be to provide BOTH sides of the story. You have not done this and created a one sided article Im afraid.

2)In view of the haste in which it was created, I'd rather believe that perhaps the haste is the reason for this mistake and not a deliberate attempt to undermine an entire Awan community. You are also incorrect to my origins, I am not an Awan. I shouldn't have to be to take offence at what is written about another respectable tribe.

No there is no attempt to undermine the Awan or any other community , the article was created in response to providing justification for another post . But more importantly another question ...
a)Do you feel that because a community may have been subjugated , oppressed and stereotyped in the past ...bringing that fact to the fore is insulting or undermining . Among Hindus the Dalits have been at the receiving end of the caste system for centuries ...what should be the right thing to do whitewash this or bring these facts to the fore .
b)Is there a pecking order of origin that is politically correct .
c)Do you think it is insulting to bring facts to light that may allude to Hindu Buddhist origins as opposed to Arab ??

No whitewashing was requested, but likewise, blackwashing/tarnishing without the full picture is also rather poor. Works both ways mate.

Frankly I do not subscribe to this whole fabricated racial purity thing that goes around . The history of all communities with notable exceptions is one of inter-racial exchange . The desire to be identified with the victor ...is it sacrosanct ?? . My limited reading of Arab history and tribes has been an eye opener , the same pecking order illness ...in Punjabi there is a saying that when a patient goes to a hospital he realises that others are ill as well .

As to your statement
With respect, I find this article to be inappropriate and offensive to Jats and Awans. I have requested deletion for this.

I dont think it is offensive at all ...it is based on a book often cited in wikipedia . I will record my disagree ...well then we leave it to better judgment .

Agreed.

Your comment I suggest you curb your personal opinions and bias towards the Muslim community. They do not all hate their Indian counterparts or their Indian heritage!

Sir your statement is perplexing ...

a)India is not only Hindu , but also Sikh ,Buddhist ,Muslim , Christian , Jewish ,Parsi ,Jain etc ...

Not contested at all, so I fail to see how faith was brought up. You have just confirmed by point, that YOU equate India with Hindu, whereas I actually used the word India/Indian. I even challenged this on your articles on Hindu lineage. This is open hypocrisy, no?

b)from my understanding Indian heritage is not only Hindu but also Muslim and Christian and Sikh , Buddhist etc . I need not elaborate on this .

Then why do you ignore this and write articles simply on Hindu lineage? Where is the mention of the above also? Again, my point above proven again....

c)The mythification of Hindu Heritage is as questionable as the mythification of Muslim lineage from Arabs or West asia etc .

And yet you wrote entire articles on simply Hindu Lineage thus accepting rather questioning as you put it. Another contradiction.

c)From my knowledge India has more Muslims than Pakistan ...(even this is a hackneyed topic now and I have no intention to engage in this issue )and your alluding to my bias is only your assumed opinion and not based on my real life .
Should I assume that anyone who brings up alternate viewpoint is biased .

How the number of Muslims in India has any relevance to my advice is beyond me. Although I think I may be to blame to some extent, as I should have reworded to Pakistani Muslims, rather than just Muslims, thus confusing you here.

Lastly yes I am passionate about this subject ...the lineage of ther north west Indian people and heritage .
Do thank you for your polite post and will keep in mind the important point you have made which I have alluded to at the beginning of my post .,
Cheers Intothefire 06:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Having answered the above, I don't think your the only one perplexed....

But thanks for yoru point anyway, my job was simply to advise, the rest was up to you.--Raja 21:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Pakistan Army

I would like to request you to mediate the article on Pakistan Army. I made certain edits which are being removed by one mercenary. For example the facts of the Paksitan Army history concerning Bangladesh war and the rights violations, the suppressioin in Baluchistan and the surrender of Pakistan Army should all be in the article but some people want to make to remove the same

trueblood 04:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

This user is repeatedly inserting incorrect information and his edits are mean spirited. He keeps putting a casualty figure of 7000 when infact the Indian Army itself claimed 4000. There is NO NEED to have the casualty figure of Kargil on the main page as there is a separate article for that war. He keeps inserting the 1971 surrender photograph, and captured SSG toops photograph on the PA page and like I've explained to him, I don't go around posting pictures depicting Pakistani victories on the Indian military articles. He is trying to turn Wikipedia into his propoganda tool. I will NOT have this. I don't know if you're mediating or not, but please have this user banned from editing the PA page or ask him to grow up Zaindy87 18:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Pakistan Army

Raja, my family has lots of people in the Army, I am not a kid, I have been in the US since over 38 years, so I have been around a while. My family fought in every war for Pakistan, my father was a fighter pilot and as you know Sudhans are part of the military, but if you look up, on Monday the Sudhans will be fulling supporting the Chief Justice of Pakistan when he comes to Rawalakot.

Likewise. But if you truly believe the Chief Justice to be the beacon of truth, then I feel very very sorry for you and Rawalakot's hopes.....

Furthermore, I grew up in the US and have been here since I was a 9 years old so I know when Americans say Paki, it has no negative conotation. I am not sure what you read about Bush's comments and his assistant. I am not sure which country you are living in, but here in the US things are a bit different.

Very different. But the fact that your country's President knew that his words were racial, is indicative that it isn't all different, despite how much you try and deny it.

Anyway, I think that the surrender of half of Pakistan is an event that should be in the Pakistan Army section. It is like the US Army, it has its civil war and other wars.

You have to have a complete history not just feel good things.

trueblood 02:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I trust you will also have the same view, when it comes to light the part the Sudhan officers also played in many of the human rights violations of this Army.--Raja 11:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Raja your post on my page

"I am not interesting in your Political motives (which I might add are becoming increasing apparent, so much for my blind trust in your words...) but what I do care about is your misrepresentation of Muslim tribes. You never answer any questions to your assertions and yet, you continue to make them? It's up to you, if you want to work together in a neutral way, I am up for it. If not, dont expect me or any other users to sit back and watch you pretty vandalise pages with nonsensical POV original research. --Raja 13:33, 22 July 2007 "(UTC)

"pretty vandalise pages with nonsensical POV original " Whats the matter why do you get upset now ..each and every post in the talk page of the Gakhar is solidly backed up ..!! why do you expect a double standard -one for you and another for me ...Raja you and your team craftily participate in deletion of my articles , when I provide citations from sources you and your team regularly and shrewdly use misuse wikipedia rules nitpick to remove my content ...I extended a hand and then the very next postyou are back to the same deletion game . Lo and behold if its not the usual deleters than suddenly an anonymous poster will do the work .

In the recent Gakhar episode I think it would be more than apparent that if if you push me expect an equal and opposite response . Yes I have an interest in the people AND history of the Punjab and NWFP ,as I see you have as well , saying that there are Gakhar Hindus is a misrepresentation of Muslim tribes ?? strange?! ...sir this is where the problem lies ..... that being said I am willing to explore how we could work together..! may not be impossible if the countries can .
CheersIntothefire 14:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. I stated misrepresentation of tribes, full stop wont be tolerated. If you read my edits, you will see I am fully in favour of ant tribes Hindu counterparts to be acknowledged and mentioned fully. I do nitpick your edits, because you dont supply the citations that are constantly requested/demanded, so your comment about "fully backed up" points is wrong. Likewise, your comment about "pushing you" and then expecting an equal and opposite response, you dont scare me my fellow and neither does your rhetoric. My blood is more staunch than any opposition Im afraid, lol. Either way, if you wanna work together, offers open, I just request proof for your edits. If you dont have any, then stop adding POV. Period. --Raja 15:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Farishta and Ibn Batuta

Hi Raja
Thought I would seek your comments on a issue concerning Farishta and clan Histories from the Punjab , Afghanistan ,Iran even Iraq for that matter . Both Farishta and Ibn Batuta cite numerous instances of lacs of Hindus and Buddhists being made slaves and taken back to the above mentioned countries where a flourishing slave trade existed .Now if not all were killed or led celibate lives thereafter it would stand to reason that they had children . Considering the enormous numbers of slaves taken their descendents would also have exponentially increased over generations .

Not neccesarily. Even to this day, some of these nations have a downcaste people, who have migrated back out or been extensively massacred through the successive wars that these troubled nations have faced over periods. But being slaves, they'd have been the lowest of the low, so intermarriage with the local population would have been totally out of the question, i.e. retaining their sad Dalit status een there...

Now the logic cuts both ways if on page after page clan history’s on wikipedia are showing Afghan ,Iranian , Arab ancestors ...in India and Pakistan ....well what about all the descendents of the Hindu and Buddhist slaves taken .

You have a problem with this clearly, but your theory falls because these so called foreign tribes also have prominent positions as they entered as conquering forces. The logic DOES NOT cut both ways as those Hindu slaves were brought in as downtrodden slaves and remained so. Their descendants obviously weren't flourishing as the need for more slaves indicated that slaves populations weren;t flourishing at all.

If one were to draw a parallel to the blacks in the US ...where does that bring us to ....a significant percentage of these countries people are of Hindu and Buddhist ancestry .

One cannot draw a comparison with US, as they are 2 completely different entities. The blacks were systematically culled and breeded, such examples are absent in the middle east from my knowledge. The above reasons suffice why your theory fails.

Next in my reading of both of these books I found an interesting fact ...that there is no mention of the Rajputs(Hindu or Muslim) taking slaves of soldiers , or making slaves of non combatants women and children .Could it be assumed that this was the code of the Rajputs (Hindu or Muslim) of not making slaves of non combatants or that there are recorded instances .
Cheers
Intothefire 15:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately no, there are many examples of Rajputs taking slaves, and this is not against their code of honour, it's a simple fact of political strategm. Enslaving within India has been rife since vedic eras i.e. Dalits for one. They were religiously and socially enslaved in a mass scale, the worst atrocity that the world has ever seen and still sees....--Raja (talk) 12:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Amir Khan

re: (Hi there, the reference for the claim has been provided, fully, and if you would like a temporary upload of the picture of the article then I can provide this. Please dont delete cited referenced info without properly verifying it first 14:01, 20 January 2008)

With regards to the revert of my edit, can you kindly provide me a temporary image to this article that is referenced? My copy of Mens Reference makes no mention of this fact that is referenced?

Have provided this on your page, the actual copy of the exact page scanned no less.--Raja (talk) 13:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No Problemo!

You Rock!Your name was written all over that Barnstar... Lil'Khan (talk) 23:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC) ==

---

Interesting what you write I am amazed at your in depth knowledge about these things. You are right about the pride of the main branches of Gakhar Rajeh hoarding rishteys in order not to dilute their blood etc but I have seen that this was a folly on their part that only led to increased elopement of Gakhar women with men of lesser lineages.

There is one Gakhar clan in Mirpur AK Kanyal who are very much "Jat" these days or am I mistaken about that clan. Perhaps you could give some examples of other Gakhar clans who are using the lower Jat status. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Potwar (talk • contribs) 14:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks brother

Your comments are welcome.

--Rorkadian (talk) 23:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Tanoli page

Hello, thank you for your words of acknowledgement. i would certainly be glad if you could further improve the quality of the tanoli page. it was damaged extensively when i came across it and was about to be deleted from wikipedia because of all that vandalism, but i convinced the other wikipedians that it needed improvement and not deletion. Its now much better than what the vandalised page looked like but its being vandalised on daily basis even nowadays and i have to change it back almost everyday, there are some crazy people out there : ), take care, cheers Wikitanoli (talk) 04:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

And raja sb another thing i want to know is how i can upload pictures on to the page, thanks Wikitanoli (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Janjua rajput

I left him a warning for making unsourced edits, and I asked him to go to the talk page to explain what sources he used. Let's see how he responds. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar etc

Salaam :-)

Just to say thanks for the Barnstar Pahari Sahib 20:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Citation Barnstar

		The Citation Barnstar
		For providing reliable sources from dead-tree sources to articles dealing with people of Pashtun origin, thus solving many disputes and improving articles wonderfully. Enric Naval (talk) 16:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Here I do not understand people who commit anything, what we are not always saves his comments, and what really comment on that and what we are Always disposal, and I often commented where most of Tanoli tribe spoke Pashto and Urdu-speaking branch and HINDKO too, where have Tanoli is a great tribe of the pashton which are of Pathan community.

People here always rejected the original source commented that Tanoli, and with the same histry tried to change the origin of Tanoli, sometimes it also shows Tanoli been dede afghanistan, then where are pashton know, again changing its background note of where these people are pashton Tanoli.

these people have no shame to do that, this single mind that these people do not know what their background, for your information I repeat again Tanoli have a strong background, Tanoli is a name of pashton —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.33.224.121 (talk) 20:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

problem again with Sher Shah Suri

Please see User_talk:Dewan357#Sher_Shah_Suri. Can you write a message on Talk:Sher Shah Suri on whether you think that "afghan" should be on the article, or give a hand on some other way? --Enric Naval (talk) 05:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Kashmir Conflict

Kashmir conflict As you can see the indian pov pusher wikivandal41 has done a fair bit of damage to the Indian veiw section and smothered it with rubbish rhetoric like "minoritys will not be safe in Pakistan" even though Hindustan has the worst record of communal riots in the world anyways maybe you could clean up the article cheers 86.162.69.147 (talk) 15:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Ignore greyanomaly hes been blocked several times for disruptive pov pushing you however have not so dont take orders from a pov pushing vandal indian 86.158.178.91 (talk) 17:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Raja. You seem to know a lot about Rajput history. Can you find out how many hindus got killed during the muslim invasions, rajputs in particular. Just give a rough estimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.121.200.192 (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: History of Gakhar's

Hello I have been reading your article on Ghakar tribe. I just wanted to add that somebody once told me that the Gakhars decend from certain general in Ghaznavi Army. His name was Gakhar Khan and he was from Kiyan in Iran and the name Kiyani represents their origin from Kiyan in Iran. Have you any info re this? i thought i should let you know. Thanks --Topian1 (talk) 02:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC) just to add that after Ghaznavis succesful invasion Ghakkar Khan was left to administer the region of Pothohar and from then the foundation of the Ghakkar rule was established in this region. --Topian1 (talk) 02:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello Raja.I am not happy with present state of Rajput pages.If you have time could you go through the Vishnu Purana. It is a treasure trove of knowledge on true rajput history and ancestory. If you visit Vishnu Purana page on Wiki there is a link to H.H.Wilson,s translation of VishnuPurana. The book 4 is about Chander vansh and Suraj Vansh lineages.Could you please put it on the Rajput pages. It will be a great service to the Rajput race.At present, many people are confused about Rajput origins.This will help to correct their views.Thanks.Rajbaz (talk) 18:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

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The article Varya Rajputs has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Fails WP:GNG. Has been unsourced for years and I can find no reliable sources. Just another surname from the Indian subcontinent.

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