User talk:Howlingsandy

Nice photos, but unless you take away the prices, they're spam. Regards, Rothorpe (talk) 22:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Your message & my reply

ROTHORPE it took me hours to even find any way to reach you in response....this may not be the best way but just email me will you? If you're so adamant on what YOU think of as spam please read on:

before you so cavalierly and arbitrarily delete my external site that was posted for years on the Howlin' Wolf bio page... please consider the following

a) EVERY link but ONE on that site is a money-making site, and while I may rarely sell a photo from it I have NEVER gotten a sale from referrrals on other sites. These photos are to be enjoyed and sure, if someone buys one, the people depending on me can eat, as I donate all my funds to keep people alive who without which would not be.

b) Wolf my personal very close friend always wanted me to have credit for what has turned out to be some the MOST infringed photos in the world. By huge commercial interests, ranging from Gibson, Universal, Sony Films and over 30 CD covers mostly by UK's notorious pictorial press and bootleggers.

c)Anyone can enjoy the photos and NOT buy them... and by the way if you have heard beyond detail mindedness you will note that the very moving story alone there is a VERY BEAUTIFUL and says a lot about that great man. Did you even read it?????

d) no one has to buy my photos... and few can afford anyway but i dont give them away.... i let them be seen free

have a heart ... do you know almost all the other external links all proudly discuss my site. I am no spammer.

these photos (if you go to images on any search engine those I had published get scanned and passed around like candy. why should I not be known at least as the source.

Regards.

Sandy Guy Schoenfeld Howlingsandy (talk) 00:26, 15 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Howlingsandy (talk • contribs) 23:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Copied all that here as you put it at the top instead of at the bottom of my sacred talk page...

Yes, nice pictures & story, but I'm afraid they're almost certain to be reverted again.

Anyway, I'll email you tomorrow - it's 2am in Portugal! Hasta mañana - Rothorpe (talk) 01:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

PS Welcome to Wikipedia, click, clack.

I have also been involved in reverting your edits on the Howlin' Wolf, Mike Wilhelm and White Station, Mississippi pages. Your edits are quite clearly in contravention of the Wikipedia guidelines as laid out at WP:LINKSPAM. In answer to your above assertion that "EVERY link but ONE on that site is a money-making site", I want to draw your attention to the part of WP:LINKSPAM that states "Many times users can be confused by the removal of spam links because other links that could be construed as spam have been added to the article and not yet removed. The inclusion of a spam link should not be construed as an endorsement of the spam link, nor should it be taken as a reason or excuse to include another."

I would also refute that the other links on the Howlin' Wolf article are spam. Yes, some of them are from commercial sites but they are all directly concerned with Wolf, his music and his musical legacy, and therefore "contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject", to quote WP:ELYES. Your website is full of many fine photographs but I don't believe that it adds substantially to the reader's understanding of the subject. This, coupled with the fact that it is your own site that you're adding, makes me deem this as spam and self-promotion, as laid out at WP:LINKSPAM and WP:COI.

Also, the way that you keep inserting yourself into the Mike Wilhelm article with sentences like "Sandy Guy Schoenfeld (harmonica student and noted photographer of Howlin' Wolf) who also took Wilhelm's handsome album cover photo", I perceive as a non-neutral point of view and a conflict of interest, not to mention shameless self-promotion. To paraphrase Wikipedia guidelines on the subject "if you need to add yourself to Wikipedia, then you aren't notable enough." Please be assured that this is nothing personal against you or your fine photography, it’s just that those are the rules. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Kohoutek says it all, better than I could. Cheers! Rothorpe (talk) 13:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Martinevans123 My photo site should be linked, as it was in fact for years. Even as "The Howlin' Wolf photo site" Not everybody gets the essence or the total sense of a subject from reading. My site is the ONLY site that shows a) MANY photos b) deeply meaningful, diverse and sensitive PORTRAITS, FAMILY PHOTOS, ON THE ROAD CONDITIONS, WOLF WHEN HE WAS STILL VIBRANTLY POWERFUL.

Of course I will sell a print. West Point will sell concert tickets t-shirts, the biography site will sell itself... who cares? I have NEVER made a sale not only from it being on Wiki (for years), but from being a link on ANY site . I have encountered hundreds in fact thousand of infringers, mostly innocent as the photo is THE iconic imaage of Wolf (#2 image on my site, once it was the #1 image)

Of course people want to see one of the most influential and charismatic and in fact, going by a thousand emails I have received, life-changing, human beings in the world, a genuine wounded-healer as my STORY depicts so well. The story on my site is alone a degree of presentation of the man that Chester Burnett was and what his legacy genuinely conveys and that is the whole point of my wanting my site to go back on "yours". To be rejected in the face of some of those add-ons far more exploitive of the image and legacy of Howlin' Wolf I wil consider an actionable matter. Did even the authors of his bio (who I know and respect) ever meet Howlin' Wolf... uh-uh. Did I ? hell yeah, we made songs, he taught me music, we discussed many things some not ever yet revealed, we came under the gun together (and I mean that literally) if you have read the bio (which no one who works on this page should be allowed to even look at much less edit if they have not) you will see what I refer to there... Wolf was a bad-ass performer and in fact it was not even acting but something more, yet a progressive man who predicted in song the coming of a black (African American) president, a song he asked me to write for him though I never got it finished in time...

Who's photos do ALL media use when discussing his home life? mine. His wife and him, usually mine as the photos I took are not just "great pics' but depict and show and transmit levels of character and dimensions of who he was in a number of levels and ways that none other can or have, and I speak of the portraits, too. My photos are the most infringed of nearly any. I would of course like to curtail that more before having to resort to use Getty and Redfern legal, etc. or the other methods of preventing intentional outright theft in those relatively few occurrences where it was done clearly intentionally as discussed on this website I point out *[1]

The world deserves to see these photos. If I were a thousandaire much less a millionaire I may give some away more that those I have or do but there is NO way I will remove the watermarks... ALL can see those elucidating and inspiring photos for free, to read the story there which is not f'n fan trivia but speaks to how Howlin' Wolf REALLY was in contrast to the stupid and ugly comments one sees (at times) on YOUTUBE and blog comments and social sites and such, about him being a drunk a dope addict, low skilled etc... The guy was uniquely wonderful and I met a LOT of those blues fathers all great to ME and profoundly influential and talented but there was ONLY one Howlin' Wolf

Also your (the Wiki) article does not say how he also continued MUSIC lessons as well as some for Hubert Sumlin. The actual king of the Chicago blues scene taking music lessons... should be told... this was the kind of person he was... the Wiki article lacka a type of sense of the man my photos will help add. And you can grab #2 anywhere +on the net but if you use it I insit on the photo credit by name at least if not link BY the photo but in any case my photo site is the only real documentary and artistic record of Wolf as the person he was beyond performances plus it shows his cards . full photo-sided business cards years ahead of their time WE made... there is no GOOD reason to not add my site

In the sixties as well as being a musician, songwriter, student and community services developer, I also helped educate and enforce the National Civil Rights Act. Wolf and I had a lot of things in common each in our own way, more in ways than those he was with regularly. I'm not some lucky fan that got a chance to take photos. LOOK at the photos , look INTO them ... see the Wolf that is the real deal and it took what we shared to get those photos.. and it takes seeing them to get a better GENUINE SENSE of who he was..

Look at the West Point link... see the photo they have (blurry as it is) and see whose name is there. http://www.wpnet.org/About_HWblues.htm

Look at the biography, and the site of the biographers bottom of front page and then these pages http://www.howlinwolf.com/articles/bio_1.htm http://www.howlinwolf.com/talkin.htm their THE BIOGRAPHERS LINKS SITE SAYS www.howlingwolfphotos.com

More than 50 fantastic, newly available portraits of Wolf, including some of the best we've ever seen of Wolf in performance or in private! AND http://www.howlinwolf.com/images/playing/wolf_play.htm and yet those hard-working and diligent authors never met Wolf. I was asked to stay with him. He taught me harmonica. We made two songs. We discussed things that only now are being revealed and he was prophetic about them in fact, or wise in ways few are and especially more so all things considered

OK... if some prior squelcher of what's best cant take time to read this well and the previous written as I showed suffient respect to care enough to take my time writing it.. but instead blue-meany style defaults to letter and not spirit of "law"(but I might add, not in terms of actual precedent, lol) IMHO they should withdraw from editor efforts... when I was on community interim boards I spent DAYS at a time giving all a fair hearing... how can one do less and be fully human? and making your own pages while claming my own cntributions from me directly is wrong is so hypocrtical

I have not taken time to contact the other add-on sites. (yet) I have radio interviews about Wolf and his 100th birthday filling my time at this point, a CD to get out and Howlin Wolf Foundation effort to connect to better than have had time to yet.

and most of my free and sleep time is spent saving lives, as there is not any good other option or person at least yet who can do it as must be done. This matter will likely break internationally this year and HOPEFULLY I pray in the very best outcome ways. yet for safety's sake of more than one, maybe it wont be too publicized.

Getting back to the point here:

MY site is not "spam" . If I wanted to 'spam' I would not be using Wiki or in fact any other secondary site linked to do that and a link is NOY spam... what kind of encylopedic mind would mis-use such a term, especially in the case of my photo site. I contact museums directly. I let record companies know my photos exist especially those that use my photos before they know.. I let a few forums and societies know of my work, half of them have been using it anyway... (and those few bootleggers or intentional infringers that do it for their gain with no sense of care, respect for me, the unique genesis of the art, and Wolf's wishes for me and how it was to be allocated, no recognition or sharing, well, that's "works in progress" in venues you may not be able to imagine but you will have to hahaha but really, these days mainly Getty legal waits my info as EVERY time I go online now in search mode there is one commercial usage of my work uncontracted unpermitted somewhere in the world, but beyond that I have a good friend who can trace anyone, any where, best in the world. Usually a SERIOUS collector or fan sees my site on search engines front pages.. hardly need to spam .my work with these images has slowed until VERY recently due to my efforts to get Arthur Crudup into the Rockhall, to put out a CD, to save lives (of trafficked women and defeat or block online scammers, developing complex coverages simple to apply for both online swindling and "in one's face types" designed for another country where scamming is much more damaging as it targets the poor , not the rich as other scammers do with those emailed letters

My site will be asked added by the biographers and no doubt various mags would do it, other of the add ons already there.. how about leaving it on... if I ever made ONE sale from the Wiki site I'd be astounded but it all goes out to those with no money for vitally needed medical treatment anyway, I will say that I COULD have added something (and the biographers would back it) in the meat of the article about Wolf and I meeting , and when our songs and full interview gets published (have held it back for all this time) it would also bear looking into as it will reveal a lot about both his talent (beyond what one hears on those compilations ) but also how he was in his day to day moments as well as the deeper issues of his childhood some (not all) which were a mystery until my interview was transcribe into the book (in this matter and a few others)

my PC a beat up old used clunker is acting up now so will save this Howlingsandy (talk) 06:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC) please consider with heart and mind why my site should be added as I - for the sake of Wolf's legacy - will continue to make this appeal to someone who will realize that to have been there is worth a thousand words (thought the story site in fact the whole site is actually (Other than the biography site) infinitely more revealing of this great man, far more than the music references and profit interests or just funding interests of other sites or in fact almost any site i ever saw EVER on Wiki.. which is no surprise

PS and you other two have a few breaths and don't take it personally that I knew this man WELL and can depict and. describe him along with a few others I know of . best... We corresponded, phone talks, visits, backstage etc etc.. The comments he had about his UK trips were ... interesting.. and private... Same such up to a point with Arthur Crudup, Brownie McGhee and oh yeah that Wilhelm guy

if I were adding content to the main section I would NOT leave out that Wolf confidently predicted a black U.S. President... amlost 40 years ago...

and from Wolf's own multi-generational estate (now the "foundation"

>Laura, *brochure graphic artist

>Please be advised don't delete the pictures after use >as we may revise/edit brochures and/or create >scholarship applications brochure. Sandy is now a part o >of the Howlin' Wolf Foundation and our concerted efforts. As we determine future projects and usage, Sandy will be involved with determining use of photos (one of the collaborative responsibilities Sandy has in the organization). Thanks for all you do!!!

Respectfully,

Ellery L. Williams

---

The biographers don't have this option

Sandy,

... I believe that you are an asset to our mission as we are to yours. In the greater scheme of themes you were....and are a part of the Howlin' Wolf legacy. Hypothetically speaking, if there were 5 original components that made the Howlin' Wolf engine churn, it doesn't make sense to recreate and not use any of its original components. I will identify the resources that are available and get the engine churning better than before. It is my responsibility to ensure the success and continuity of the Howlin' Wolf legacy. On behalf of Howlin' Wolf, Inc. and the Howlin' Wolf Foundation, Inc. we welcome your thoughts and/or suggestions. I will make every effort and due diligence making decisions for these corporations. Every decision I make will be an informed decision with thorough research and analysis. I believe that you are passionate about Howlin' Wolf's legacy. Our collaborative efforts will allow us (...etc.)

. Thanks for your attention to this

Sandy Guy Schoenfeld Howlingsandy (talk) 06:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Howlingsandy (talk) 06:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Howlingsandy's Reply

am not quite sure how to clearly and simply get a message to a wiki editor, but Kahoutek, you're very very wrong about many things. Please be so kind as to make sure both of you see this...whoever gets this and if it's posted in wrong place it's a personal a response to just transfer to an email if you wish and tell me how to reach you in a a simple way if need be but I wont keep putting this time into this venue at this level so please let's see if what i say makes at least SOME sense to you okay?

just email me [email protected] or clearly tell me how to properly leave a message. my PC and browser is problematic enough and would be good to know and less messy no doubt...

okay.. look...

unless somehow self-righteous and envious maybe "nothing personal against your fine editing jurisprudence" but clearly there is SOME kind of arbitrary and capricious style of your abuse of power as follows.....

RE Mike Wilhelm: and you may ask him

Mike and I and his wife Ana (Ann) did Mean Ol' Frisco here in Marin Co. at first then in S.F. in 1985; for Patrick Mathe' of France who if you look into his background you will recognize .. maybe... New Rose/Last Call and etc.etc.

He (Mike) chose me for harmonica over, for example and surprisingly at the time though glad to have been told, Norton Buffalo... because not only did I write 3 of the songs on that album, in ways he liked, but I had also (besides from Howlin' Wolf, who I knew so MUCH better and in fact -at all - than any of those external link owners you allow... this is next subject.. for now Mike Wilhelm) I had also learned harp from Sonny Terry and he guitar from Brownie McGhee.... We had a very special musical rapport probably best he ever found so I understand... and I played harp (blues/rock/folk harmonica on 7 of the 11 tracks) in the way he liked best

I was asked to take the cover shot and others by co-producer and him because of my photographic abilities and background and close (photographic as well as musical and family style connection to Howlin' Wolf and Arthur Crudup, whom I played drums with whenever he was out west.

On Mean Ol Frisco, Cippolina (with one lung left) came out of hospital to do it, played on 2 tracks, former quicksilver drummer Greg Elmore was on all, bassman bobby vega on most... and clarinetist sax player Richie Olsen from orig. Charlatans.

This stuff is not secret but so artibrary how you publish, it would seem to one who was THERE... uh well that would be me... for example. My photos of John (Cippolina) and others are on the inside 10 of 12.

I was NOT an unknown musician even then. but did not ordinarily waste time with the derivative imitators when I was blessed enough to be making songs and being tight friends with Howlin' Wolf, Arthur "Big Boy" Crudup, Brownie McGhee/Sonny Terry, Mance Lipcomb, K.C. Douglass, and 5 or 6 other blues legends from the time I was a teenager, seeing them socially when possible and corresponding with most, otherwise.

I drove Mike and Ana Marie Rios his "co-producer" (junko partner Ana) as well as most equipment to every (many) sessions in two studios. Tres Virgo in Sausalito (who's coked-out engineer lost two Tracks! so we left them) and the now-famous Hyde Street Studios.

I am mentioned on that album 12 times... few others got more than 2 mentions. And you omit my name in places that in essense harm truth and possible future sales of it for him and Last Call in doing so... Mike would not argue this I was NOT unknown in the white blues/rock circles too but the details of that can wait this typing is most unpleasantly painful to my basal joints... but plenty enough of references as to my music scene participation.

Within 2 years that Mean Ol' Frisco album was selling at collectors shops here USED for $40, and being at many to sell off my records to pay for a friends surgery, I three times heard customers buying it say they wanted it as much for the cover photo as the songs. What can I say? There are not many "clean-shaven" looks of WIlhelm and some liked it....But of course you don't have to say handsome, was trying to see who the hell was deleting FACTUAL stuff so added that.

And get a clue to your own self-righteous judgmental assumptions PLEASE... There is nothing "shameless" in my efforts. I would, as a trained therapist however, including Winnicott and Fairbairn UK via Guntrip (object relations theorists) training (not to mention yes the "other Fairbairn" too, of "get tough" fame though trained for many years via Col Rex Applegate (as am not THAT old to have met 2nd Fairbairne, wink) but that is neither here nor there, right? though some RM50 mates in UK did help me to collect (a matter of conversation sticking to facts of course, and all legal. juts helps to have some realize am not an easy and long distance mark for bootleggers) this was regards to two small-time professional / intentional thieves marketing my photos on amazon and on websites for their profits and who upon being questioned telling me to f.off (first when confronted in an actually rather kind way) so I supppose they got to find out I'd met some good UK mates in Moscow as from from all country' elite recondo forces cross-trained their sharing "secrets" with Spetznas etc. after Glasnost was in effect .. well shucks that was back in the day and I digress)

so point is.. I know healthy shame and I know the other kind the (as Bradshaw calls it, the shame that binds) that most have, hold, hide and deny and then mis-treat others behind such as I may be inspired to consider and refer to when getting such unquestioningly close-minded comments, well ahead of any fair hearing as if such comments had truth and only truth... so my friends, if you have a conscience and deeper wisdom at least you may wish to look within... I hope you can, and nothing said is to disparage your various contributions but you really ought to think again about mine.

Also. Mike and I fact fact fact and documented re the Harmonic Convergence Concert and various gigs we did around town as a duo that i did not mention yet, and was well advertised etc etc etc. on radio and flyers etc.. it was sort of his come-back as a musician HERE in fact.. we fact fact fact played a NOTED concert at the band shell just before the summer of love re-do...I see you kept that which I added but NOT mentioning me and blocking the whole thing even toned down. now talk about shameless and wrongful .. jeez! yet you keep blocking that even in neutral text. The video is available and a priceless collector's item in fact which has not been made available though it could be and in fact three songs (the ones I wrote and sang)will be on YOUTUBE by end of year but am waiting for them to come out as having been wanted by other musicians for their upcoming CD's.

WHY would you block even some tamed down reference to THAT concert... it was so well-received by thousands and very much enjoyed by Its' a Beautiful Day members in particularly David as well as Zulu Spear and others on the venue.. it was for charity. and yes....

There WAS a world tour scheduled (all to use Harleys in fact) as much as possible) for Mean Ol' Frisco and the manager of it was former manager of The Animals whose name escapes me. What I said at first about WHY it was cancelled is so re the King Snakes - horrible French wannabe pet band of Mathe'...at the time and though I dont expect it to be part of the article of course actually .. Mathe's issues with who was to play backup to and with Wilhelm was in fact so... (he did come here, we did have long talks about much. when he was not hitting on my girlfriend in what he thought was secret, lol) and issues of radiation from Chernobyl reaching Finland that was on the tour, which included Montreaux... put the kibosh on it.

and that short-lived film I added .. .1968 the movie .. not bragging guys but just saying...it was ME featured in the TV trailers for the pic (a producer was related to Forbes) it was ME playing drums in the trailer plus some documentary footage...and a few quick shots of the "stars." Was that by chance? I think not. You (nor would anyone) not know, as I changed my appearance each time quite well, I was a (featured) extra in that film in 4 other ways, and then as a SAG-credited actor/musician whose soundtrack contribution counted as lines. Music director Cipollina asked me to be in it, then Mike. Then I got Eric (Doc Maraque) an invite though in reality he was actually more of a hanger on who played maracas in one song so I gave him that nickname.

how you can leave out the harmonic convergence concert is beyond wrongful. how you can love to find reasons to diminish and invalidate to the extent you do my image in your minds is worth looking into and taking to whatever venue might be appropriate in the guidelines of wiki if this does not connect to a more human and relective side of your judgement

HOWLIN' WOLF the story alone on my site is enough to justify it being a link it is the ONLY story of actually KNOWING him and so much about him and things we shared. The biography REQUIRED my interview to make the meat of his first chapter, as he will also admit gladly... and NO ONE of other thousands could tell the authors what I had on tape with Wolf.

My NAME is on the LOGO of the WPHWBS and frankly besides a concert to make money for people who own half the county what do they actually do for Wolf???? they never met him and are rather clueless about much and in fact Wolf was in fact NOT born in White Station/West Point but ABERDEEN as was made clear by the recent NEW blues trail marker THERE. These are all easily verifiable facts.

I am glad the bio book came out, beyond that they used my interviews, and other stories (some of them) of knowing Wolf so well... they mention my site and in fact wanted my photo on the cover though pantheon opted for that depressing gaunt endstage sick photo being clueless as to true blues meaning especially in relation to Wolf's dynamic vibrant style and peak appearance . no need to show sickness to show blues in ones eyes that I was able to capture.

Wolf chose me to be his photographer and wanted me to get credit. Yet your UK Pictorial Press's Tony Gale now has to be sued by Redfern and Getty for robbing me and thus mainly them of so many funds since 1976... The photos ARE ... IN FACT.. THE.. ICONIC PHOTOS... even steven lavere will say so... as well as Wolf's current estate/foundation who wants them all for free of course, as millionaires never have enough....and NONE of whom met Wolf! Or quite get who and how he was with perhaps the stepdaughters having at least some awareness having lived with him but from what I know. miles apart in understanding.

The photo #1 and now #2 are (#1 on 25 or more CDs and in thoussands of books and news articles never ONCE mentioning my name . #2 a recent infringment top target is more easily dealt with ... but is MINE and I dont see why you righteous editors would NOT want THE iconic photos to be ON this page as a link.... I never expect to sell one photo from such things as never have yet.... partly because I don't offer cheap digital prints

You are welcome to USE one or two of my photos so empowering to those who see them such a view into Wolf... of course I want photocredits and link to my site . think about it.

a) your invalidation of my connection to Mike Wilhelm and our own work shared is laughable and sad and much unpleasant to see such stuff from those who were not there in any way shape or form.. but that can be verified simply enough \

b) your exclusion of my (formerly long running link) on Wiki is in fact a diminishing of Wolf's image to those who can read far enough into the article to see the links... his grave site is one matter.. His bio... which is great is no more revealing in some ways (as author admits) than those of my story , the photos that could only have come from a very unique relationship rare and special... his business cards are another thing. they are shown and show Wolf as Way ahead of his time in creative PR... no other place shows them ...they are FREE to see... they pop up larger... hell, yes i ask fees for one to own some... or to get an image of copyable quality I need a contract. i have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars by thieves and bootleggers.... and live paycheck to paycheck n disability pension while supporting some people in great difficulty with every cent I can obtain. In fact this matter as to who and why may make international news at some point but cannot get into it here

my site is a better museum than west point's... go look... it's almost a token joke and sad to me , in fact am about to give them some photos just to make it better...but they put the last one I let them use for a poster/t-shirt in the news and it got out all over the net as it was electronically distributed with neither copyright or sanction to use only in assoc. with their festival so sadly then had to deal with educating them and blocking such publications back in '03

your post to me kahoutek really bears some self-evaluation and a better look at how it does meet the guidelines you use to justify some pretty wrongful exclusion and inf act there should sure be a means of taking this toa higher venue if all i said is not making sense but to reinforce your wrongful opinion far too hastily and seems jubullanty rendered

if what i say seems self trumpet blowing those things can be edited without all or nothing which is very unprofessional and contradictory to encylcopedic truth, for that matter

Best regards

Sandy Guy Schoenfeld

i will re-add how it ought to be in most neutral all true non-adjectivial terms for now if can stay awake long enough after spending two whole days on this

In answer to your question, yes, this is the correct way to communicate with Wiki editors...although a reply here is fine, you don't need to copy the reply to my talk page as well.

• • • • • how astute and professional to profess accuracy yet to not even look at something with deeper and more realistic focus***** this next sentence you wrote confirms my intuition as to what is underLying your actions*****

Look, I really don't have time to get embroiled in a long discussion about this, or even enough time to read all of your last response. Wikipedia guidelines are very clear about all this (and please do click on the links I'm providing, they'll help you to understand Wikipedia policy on this)...

RE: HOWLIN' WOLF - The link to your website is self-promotion and spam as described in the guidelines found at WP:LINKSPAM. At least three different editors have removed your link from the article now, that's a clear consensus that it is not deemed appropriate for a Wikipedia article.

RE: MIKE WILHELM - Firstly, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—as laid out at WP:V. So, the information that you're inserting about the Mean Ol' Frisco sessions really needs to be verified by reliable, third party inline citations. This is especially true since the subject of the article is still alive, as laid out at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons.

Secondly, inserting yourself into an article is potentially in contravention of the guidelines set out at WP:COI. In addition, your detailing of the minutiae of the Mean Ol' Frisco sessions is probably overkill for an article about Mike Wilhelm himself—the article should provide an encyclopedic overview of the subject, free of any trivia or fancruft. This, coupled with the decidedly non-neutral point of view tone of some of your edits is why I have removed your additions.

I really don't have anything much more to add to this discussion. The rules are very clear on Wikipedia. Please refrain from re-adding this material to either the Mike Wilhelm of Howlin' Wolf pages. Your contributions are very welcome on Wikipedia but please do try to work within the guidelines that Wikipedia has laid out. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 12:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

---

add on--------------------------------

AND AS REGARDS:

>> "but I don't believe that it adds substantially to the reader's understanding of the subject."<<

YOU keep re-adding this wrongful line: "amongst other musicians from the Mean 'Ol Frisco album session"

who? NONE... the only other musician was NOT seen due to his not looking right for the time, Zero's drummer Greg Anton was left on the cutting room floor so much for accuracy ... that's one of several I noted... meanwhile and more importantly... for what it[s worth...

I did not once add trivia but belatedly fill in crucial missing gaps in parts of Wilhelm's career that took part of over a course of two years... and represented his American come-back re-entry to local regular playing as he was blacklisted here by some based on the stuff you saw in the film (if you saw it). It was not all about "me" but I was most closely part of it, yes... but getting on to the much more important matter of replacing my site link on Wolf's page...

Frankly, and maybe I' m wrong but I see little validity to what you have leveled a t me via the guidelines... i have not violated or contravened any of them....while I don't enjoy having to say this as saying such to they who do it is least likely to get a good result but it really does start to sound more like some narrow minded even heartless jealousy at play ... abusive bullying, perhaps...this using some sense of power on your part because as my work is not available to own for free but available to see and learn from for free and it clearly DOES add to understanding, and in a in a number of ways and this is as ***each one of the other add-ons*** personnel has told me NONE OF WHOM GIVE THEIR BOOKS, CONCERT TICKETS, T-SHIRTS, POSTERS OR PHOTOS FOR FREE.... So then, go find photos of Wolf at home, with family, wife, teen and young adult stepdaughters, dog, etc.. find all those other pages...oh...well, there is mine, I who drove to see Wolf at home, who spent many hours in discussion of things that even led to some verses he used later... the family site... mine.. no others....that alone is encyclopedic visual and textual info....Go find Wolf in concert...sure, some other have some... but which ones does the MgGuin DVD use? Which photo the West Point Logo? Which photo the ABC Booking Agency...Which photos does Mojo#27, Uncut's latest freebie CD cover, Living BLues Howlin' Wolf legacy issue cover. Blues and Rhythm UK use? and the rest....and which photo does the accurate new Aberdeen blues trail marker with Albert King, Bukka White and Wolf use. Find portraits, TRUE portraits of private pensive happy angry wild on-the-road in his room Wolf.... designed collaboratively to be beyond any others taken ever... because WE could do that .. it is in the story WHY ... .MINE.. and his .... ours... so, other than a few posed PR shots by early studios or horrific endstage photos of a sickly gaunt Wolf few and not true portraits actually except mine, which convey levels and depths of why he was as Sam Phillips said, where the soul of man goes and never dies.... guess you never met such a person , well there are few... try to see the value of my site and ... His PR photo by ABC oh.. hmmm MINE (appropriated unknown to me for some years then) Go find the story of how progressive how warm and how multi-facetedly deep Wolf was... oh yeah that would also be my story, and find who carried Wolf's banner to countless radio stations schools and agencies... it was me for umpteen years LONG before the bio and West Point's exploitation of his locality there who was confronting evil rumors about him, lies and also who was educating people on his legacy. Do you think the West Pointers were busy enforcing the National Civil Rights act in 1964 and 1965 as I was doing? hahahaha ...one can gain a LOT of wisdom as to who and what Wolf is by seeing those photos and reading the story either - or as some are visual. some verbal. Can I help it if you can't see either. No .. therefore...RE:

>> "This, coupled with the fact that it is your own site that you're adding, makes me deem this as spam and self-promotion,

who has not at some point gotten info to you about their own lives or site that relate to others lives .. shall I have biographer Mark Hoffman or the West Pointers hello my NAME is on their logo photo!!! or the estate who just wrote me saying I was the only one of that time of the legacy that is part of the legacy (beyond some of the musicians) have them ask you to RE-add my site? I can do that and they will.... but what's the point of more intrusions ...everyone's busy... there is that comment that comes to mind "those that can't do, teach" or is that edit. (despite that I tightened some phrases in other areas to read better, too...well.. you get the point. My website link is not spam...yes, I should be part of Wolf's story as he wished and in fact there is a lot more to it that will be public eventually.

My site was a link for years on wiki.. never made ONE sale nor heard from one reader. actually... in all that time.

I have been to Wiki focus groups to assist in the ways it functions but now i see it's run at least at the level i'm stuck discussing to what comes off as envious and with naive vibe ... you're talking about a mileau in which I was very deeply immersed in and in fact reparented by and and contributory to and collaborative with .... and you have the nerve to go against the actual truth while claiming objectivity . but blind and jealous yammerings don't show me either

enjoy....

I want to take this to another level and hopefully heads will be same...what's available?

Spam Warning May 2010

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, one or more of the external links you added do not comply with our guidelines for external links and have been removed. Wikipedia is not a collection of links; nor should it be used as a platform for advertising or promotion, and doing so is contrary to the goals of this project. Because Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, please discuss it on the article's talk page before reinserting it. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 10:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello

Per your request that I discuss this first, I hereby request my Howlin' Wolf photo site be re-added to the Howlin' Wolf page and at the very least in the last form in which it was seen, and as it had been in fact for years and for the following reasons (I include quotes from the biographers and Wolf's own estate and foundation (of which I am a member! Perhaps the only non-related member.) regarding the importance of my work in depicting the real person Wolf was, and advocacy to the legacy of this great and influential person. other such from diverse media is withheld in interests of this comment not being a book, but a "talk")

Are you planning to read this actually? Hopefully in my following your request and taking your advice to first discuss it on the page's talk area (here is only place I could find, please forward to page's talk site if such actually is there) ...so this is evaluated in the spirit of how it's intended, would be nice if even by your own self. Calling the addition of my Howlin' Wolf photo site spam is a travesty and no purported encyclopedic-oriented mind or system could accurately misconstrue such a term, especially in the case of my photo site and the purpose for which it is offered here.

From Wolf's own multi-generational estate (now also the "foundation")

>Laura, *brochure graphic artist*

>Please be advised don't delete the pictures after use >as we may revise/edit brochures and/or create scholarship applications brochure. Sandy is now a part of the Howlin' Wolf Foundation and our concerted efforts. As we determine future projects and usage, Sandy will be involved with determining use of photos (one of the collaborative responsibilities Sandy has in the organization).

>Thanks for all you do!!!

> Respectfully,

> Ellery L. Williams

and

> Sandy ... I believe that you are an asset to our mission as we are to yours. In the greater scheme of themes you were....and are a part of the Howlin' Wolf legacy. Hypothetically speaking, if there were 5 original components that made the Howlin' Wolf engine churn, it doesn't make sense to recreate and not use any of its original components. I will identify the resources that are available and get the engine churning better than before. It is my responsibility to ensure the success and continuity of the Howlin' Wolf legacy. On behalf of Howlin' Wolf, Inc. and the Howlin' Wolf Foundation, Inc. we welcome your thoughts and/or suggestions. I will make every effort and due diligence making decisions for these corporations. Every decision I make will be an informed decision with thorough research and analysis. I believe that you are passionate about Howlin' Wolf's legacy. Our collaborative efforts will allow us (...etc.)

-- Next, look at the West Point link... see the photo they have (blurry as it is) and see whose name is there next to it. http://www.wpnet.org/About_HWblues.htm

Then, per Wolf' biographers: (from where most of your page is built) See their site http://www.howlinwolf.com bottom of front page, and then these pages there: http://www.howlinwolf.com/articles/bio_1.htm http://www.howlinwolf.com/talkin.htm their THE BIOGRAPHERS LINKS SITE SAYS www.howlingwolfphotos.com

"More than 50 fantastic, newly available portraits of Wolf, including some of the best we've ever seen of Wolf in performance or in private!" (from 2002)

http://www.howlinwolf.com/images/playing/wolf_play.htm

and yet those hard-working and diligent and invaluable authors never met Wolf, while I was asked by him to stay with him. He taught me harmonica. We made two songs. We discussed things that only now are being revealed and he was prophetic about matters, or wise in ways few are and especially more so all things considered

It's not rocket science to one who studies and teaches how humans think and take in and assimilate or alter information and sensed matters (oh, maybe then it is rocket science, well anyway) -> Not everybody gets the essence or the total sense of a subject, especially a person with even part of the abilities and life of Howlin' Wolf, from reading. My site is the ONLY site that shows a) MANY and DIVERSE photos; b) deeply meaningful and sensitive PORTRAITS, FAMILY PHOTOS, ON THE ROAD CONDITIONS, WOLF WHEN HE WAS STILL VIBRANTLY POWERFUL, and not posed for some label as the old Sun stuff which is fine in its way but actually those of the man being himself with someone he had time and reason and interest to be himself, not just a stage/performance function.

Of course people want to SEE more deeply the genuine article of one of the most influential and charismatic and in fact, going by over a thousand emails I have received, life-changing, human beings in the world, a genuine wounded-healer as my STORY depicts so well. The story on my site is alone a degree of presentation of the man that Chester Burnett was and what his legacy genuinely conveys and that is the whole point of my wanting my site to go back on "yours". To be rejected in the face of some of those add-ons far more exploitative of the image and legacy of Howlin' Wolf bears reconsidering even if you yourself cant or don't see the true meaning and intent of my efforts to keep my link there.

Unless of course you don't value an open mind and heart and instead consider your views and attitude ever-perfect and never failing and needing no room to gain some wisdom beyond knowledge how about yourself kindly placing it back on there if you would.

Consider: who's photos do ALL media use when discussing his home life? Mine. Do they wish to talk about it and not have it shown? No. Views of his wife and him, usually mine as the photos I took are not just "great pics' but depict and show and transmit levels of character and dimensions of who he was in a number of levels and ways that none other can or have, as well as their relationship and that photo was used as the photo at her funeral.

I speak of the portraits, too. The world deserves to see these photos. ALL can see those elucidating and inspiring photos for free, to read the story there which is not fan trivia but speaks to how Howlin' Wolf REALLY was in contrast to the stupid, wrongful and ugly comments one sees (at times) on YouTube and blog comments and social sites and such, about him being a drunk a dope addict, etc. or low skilled etc... usually by racists or otherwise deranged or horribly misinformed commentators. There might indeed be less of them if my site were added. NONE of the other added links folks did that (confronted Wolf's detractors) nor did they work to support the national civil rights act and enforce it as did I (unless some there in just one add on site I haven't yet contacted ever had, but likely not regarding Howlin' Wolf, in any case, since the day we met (and in fact even before.)

My site has *** the only real documentary and artistic record of Wolf as the person he was beyond performances *** plus, it shows his cards (full photo-sided business cards years ahead of their time WE made... and all the rest I have already covered.

I knew and know this man and others on the music (and many other) pages of Wikipedia WELL and can depict and describe him and anyone I discuss VERIFIABLY *BY PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE* and more than my own references (AND CORRESPONDENCE AND TAPES/RECORDINGS MADE TOGETHER etc.) along with only a very few others I know of, in their own way, but nearly no other especially regarding Chester Burnett (Howlin' Wolf) of how he was in his day to day moments as well as the deeper issues of his childhood some (not all) which were a mystery until my interview was transcribe into the book (in this matter and a few others)

I'm not some lucky fan that got a chance to snap a few shots. LOOK at the photos , look INTO them ... you seem to have some interest in aspects of music... See the Wolf that is the real deal and try if you have it in you yet to sense what it took, read about what we shared and how we had come to a connection enabling us to create those photos.. and it takes seeing them to get a better GENUINE SENSE of who he was.. there is no GOOD reason to not add my site) Please find a good one to add it. There is an abundance of them.

With out much of this and the physical/visual evidence and information that is referred to by my photos and story of he and my special connection, the current overview is somewhat sterile and facile and of all people to lay that on it's not Howlin' Wolf

Other requests will be following if needed by Howlin' Wolf's biographers and/or estate and including major UK/USA music magazines etc.. request my site be placed back on the page in question, though I should not have to ask them to do so given what was just shown you, sir.

consider why my site should be added, the actual value and meaning, - for the sake of Wolf's legacy and accurate depiction .. and I would ask you to look into yourself some, if possible,. to ascertain why you would so wrongfully misjudge my site so vigorously

By the way, if I were adding content to the main section I would NOT leave out that Wolf confidently predicted a black U.S. President... almost 40 years ago or that he continued taking music lessons himself or that his generosity and compassion was evidenced by his keeping "rival" Muddy Waters going when Muddy went broke.

That will serve to offset the great misinformation that was part of the significant 'Hollywoodization' of the true Chess story, as seen on Cadillac Records

the Wiki article on Howlin' Wolf lacks a type of sense of the man my photos (as a link to see with the story available) will help correct. Also, you can grab #2 anywhere on the net and use it (for that page only) but if you use it I insist on the photo credit by name "with permission of ...etc.) at the very least if not directly linked BY the photo itself.

Best regards,

Sandy Guy Schoenfeld www.howlingwolfphotos.com Howlingsandy (talk) 21:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Unfortuantely, the matter is non-negotiable. Wikipedia's rules are very clear on this and that's that. I should also point out that this isn't even my decision to make or for me to rectify. I'm just following the rules on linking to commercial sites (especially linking by individuals associated with those same sites). This is why at least two other editors have also judged the link to be spam and removed it - no-one is being judgmental or heavy-handed towards you, we're all just following the rules laid out by Wikipedia. This is why it's non-negotiable - no matter how well thought of your site is by Howlin' Wolf's estate, the rules are the rules. Therefore, there's really nothing left to say on the matter. If you dislike Wikipedia's position on this, then perhaps Wikipedia isn't the place for you.

I have posted your first official "spam warning" above. If you continue to add this spam link to Wikipedia you will be warned again. If you still continue to ignore these warnings then you run the very real possibility of being blocked from using Wikipedia. I hope that it won't come to that. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 10:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

There was nothing surprising nor unpredicted about *your* comments here, at this point, even thought MY site (which had been on the page for years) offers true and far MORE real aspects of who and how Howlin' Wolf was and is, including actual information both visual and verifiable, vital elements, as well as informational -- to have it rejected now in comparison to sites in place that added links merely touting their own often-dubious and flaky alleged importance even if only old festival reviews or "plans" that barely borderline any true association with Howlin' Wolf, and even though two "editors" had no such problem as you claim so gladly (yes, I read the history notes of each commentator, especially enjoyed your snide. self-serving ones listing endlessly your corrections in grandiose, naive and narcissistic fashion while having even covered up or removed my own corrections of even just bad grammar in places, as well as your notes showing your need (and this is a consensus of associated previously-named and interested parties related to this very page of concern) your obvious need for indulgent self-strokes (even as your last comment here clearly is) of narcissistic, misguided, self-defined alleged contributory importance.

As I said, my site being RE-listed as THE Howlin' Wolf photosite will be requested by both estate and biographers, not me... I won[t get stuck with your abusive efforts... thus I won't be "spamming" by ME having simply as at first making efforts to re-place it on the page...

but when it was squelched so happily and relentlessly in YOUR misappropriated way, while you may seek to defend your glib and pretentious naivete on this subject and all related as much as you wish, am not buying it or buying into it, partly since you add your own info continuously in various locations as does, OF COURSE, almost every link site I have ever seen on Wikipedia.

Furthermore, what really seems to be the driving force behind your issues with it... as it has just been brought to my attention by associates there who value and care about what is true and real.. is that you are pals or mates whichever term applies with a party in the UK whom I had caught using one of my photos illegally last year, to pimp his site and commercial club functions and who was kindly allowed to pay in installments sans legal action (but who, recently enough, since that time of his wrongful commercial website/party functions uses, NOW has been determined to be a party to a bootleg CD done through his connections with a legitimate and respected record company, more's the pity) and infringing my (the same) photo as used earlier, all this already is in process of being handled by Getty legal, and so now, you can save your blatherings for under-oath depositions when subpoenaed on what indeed may well (sic) be the real reasons you distorted the nature of my site and efforts, your transparent disclaimers notwithstanding. As you may note, should you care to read previous replies, even though you said you would not and had no time to etc. (thanks for that bit of evidence, too) it seems you have brought such pending action now out of my hands, on yourself in a venue a lot more caring about and related to actual provability and far more real and genuine than the arbitrary nature of your conflictual (and covert) ways of trying to set me up for banning. (although my sources may have actually meant the deposed editor of a UK music magazine who was just upset I didn't let him use 21 photos free in his high-priced but no fee to artists nsubscription mag (the lack of care on his part toward so many which led to the demise of his career there, as many complained about his hostile and defensive style.)

In any case, as I said, the (my) site will be requested by the parties most contributory and permissive of that very page who do note its essential importance as shown to you (well, they say if the tree falls in the forest and no one hears it there's no noise, such is the reason logic truth and actuality - at best - having not been gotten, although deaf ears, blind eyes and true conflict of interest would more so seem to apply to your ways here in this matter) so it seems to all who've seen this outside your (not so) insulated little "control station."

There is nothing self-serving about my photo site as a link in this matter any more and in fact far FAR LESS than a couple of the links there, which are ONLY self serving re their old functions reviewed (or purported functions) Had you the means, courage, ethical consideration and dedication to what you claim as your editorial purity of style to actually see those places, the sites as created from their home base, meet the those people and go to those functions, instead of assuming (and in the case of my site, manufacturing distortions and judgments which are beyond surrealistic) you might get it then, but only maybe. I would have even considered the predominant content and process of what you have said to me and mis-used as threats etc... just narrow minded or deranged, until receiving what now bears checking out by those best suited to do so. Despite the formality and seeming focus on (capriciously-interpreted and arbitrarily called up as cause) rules not of your making, you're not fooling any one, even more clearly since I got the low down (low down it is, but no longer down low) And that is all I have to personally say to you, since my representatives are paid to deal with these kinds of things and since I have more important matters and people to deal with, leave it to how that goes down where such is proven to apply, when the process gets that far along to involve your testimony and background checked. Clearly you ran your sad game on the wrong party. And by the way, this is not written in anger or threat or character assassination, well at least compared to your notes and sanctimonious pretensions as to who and what you've claimed to assume what I and my site is about .. to me you're just one of a number of such, all (when discovered to be the likelihood indeed and in deeds) handled routinely in objective legally-sanctioned business-like fashion since that is the base of where your true motivation likely lays or is that lies, and stems from. This will simply now be investigated in ways far beyond my commenting with reason and truth since that matters not to you, or at best is beyond you, but shame on your contrived efforts. Writer for Mojo and Chicago tribune?... When they have stretching as an Olympic sport you may yet be a medalist. The sanctioned others can foward my site as a link. But you had better look far more closely at what you defend and push and don't if you have any true consideration at any point in your self-defined identification as asstute commentator and critic, as to what is actual, factual (and verifiably-so) encyclopedic information, in the case of where there is not conflict of interest, but in the matter of my site, it seems now as already was sensed, you "protested way too much" to not get profiled yourself. Cheers. Howlingsandy (talk) 17:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

What a wonderful imagination you have. :) I repeat that my removal of your website link isn't anything personal against you, your site, or your photography. I have said all that I have to say on this matter and will not be entering into any further discussions with you, unless it is to warn you against spamming again. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 19:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)