User talk:Horologium/April 2009

Talk:Greece

How dare you try to impose logic and reason on the discussion? I, sir, am much offended by this tactic, as nationalist fervor and emotion have stood us in good stead for millennia. We must not muddy the waters of the River Styx by the infusion of objectivity. Harrumph.  ;) •Jim62sch•^dissera! 17:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

PS -- might want to add "not" "neighbor's name do provide editors carte blanche". •Jim62sch•^dissera! 18:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

eep. Fixed that. Thanks for the heads up. Horologium (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Looks like we walked into a viper's nest on that article. If a Canadian province decided to change its name to the Province of New York, or Pennsylvania or Maine, I wouldn't care. Near where I live there's a Dublin, a Berlin and a Vienna, and to the best of my knowledge the Irish, Germans and Austrians have never complained. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 18:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I had no idea what I got myself involved in when I protected that article; it wasn't until I read through the reams of arguments that I realized it was another case of "Hate thy neighbor"™. I actively try to avoid nationalist disputes, because usually both sides are batshit insane. I don't think that is the case here, but it's something I really cannot fathom. Niko's comparison of California to Macedonia doesn't raise any sense of urgency in me, and I lived within 2 miles of the border in San Diego for over 10 years (I used to own a condo in Chula Vista, CA). It sounds a bit ethnocentric, but the US doesn't have the same type of ethnic hatred that engulfs much of Europe. We have a different set of issues altogether. (wry grin) Horologium (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we hae our own incomprehensible problems.

Batshit insane is an apt term: I know I identify to being of German and Norwegian ancestory, but I don't care much about either country, nor would I espouse a pro-either view. As an American, I'm more critical of the US than are many people outside the US, and their criticisms speak more to poor PR on the part of the US gov't and dumb decisions we have made than to anything else. I don't know, maybe I don't have a need to identify with a larger group -- flag-waving turns my stomach -- so maybe I'll never get the point of nationalism. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 20:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Urgh. I knew I had to exit that discussion when my partner pointedly told me that I was paying more attention to a long-simmering ethnic feud than I was to him, and he's not the jealous type. In any case, as I said, Fut.Perf is right; there's no hope there. I have more important things to do than wiki-lawyer with a nationalist. I've nothing against patriotism—I was in the military for 20 years—but that's not the same thing as nationalism. Horologium (talk) 21:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I want to thank you for the time you did take at Greece and for protecting the page. It was like a breath of fresh air to have an otherwise neutral party step in and point out the utter failure of the Greek position on it vis a vis Wikipedia. But, alas, I fear that April 9 will come and with the lifting of protection, the edit warring will begin in earnest. Could I persuade you to extend the protection? If not, I'll understand. Thank you again for your generous input. (Taivo (talk) 21:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

Horologium, I can understand your stance (and your partner's), but please, the one big problem about this process is that reasonable editors are systematically driven away, and only the most batshit insane (us) remain. Please don't be the next. You started out taking administrative action – would you still consider yourself in a position to act in that capacity? We need people to watch this, badly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

And at some point you served overseas, no doubt. I've never understood how the bombing of far-flung corners of the world is "patriotism" but the peaceful defence of one's own heritage and interests is "nationalism". ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

At least you are now admitting that "defending your (national) interests" is what you are doing here. Rather than defending the integrity of the project. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't be silly. I wasn't the one who painted an entire group of editors as "nationalists". I am simply inviting Ὡρολόγιον to compare what he perceives as Greek "nationalism" to his own self-professed "patriotism". In any case, this is a general discussion about Greek versus US attitudes in the real world. Next you'll be telling us you don't have an opinion on the issue. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 11:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, Kekrops, you could have the courtesy to spell our host's name correctly--it is Horologium, not "Horologion". (Taivo (talk) 11:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC))

The same way you spell out mine? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 11:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

(E/C) Please stop, Kekrops. And, for what it's worth, although my name is derived from Greek (through Latin), it is "Horologium", not «Ὡρολόγιον», or even «Ὡρολόγιυμ», on the English Wikipedia. If I were to edit the Greek Wikipedia, I'd translate my username to the Greek equivalent when signing my posts, out of common courtesy. (I use SUL, so the username would still be "Horologium", however.) As to the slap against my military service, I fixed electronic circuit cards, and have never served in a war zone. (Before and after, but never during, unless you consider Operation Southern Watch and Operation Northern Watch to be wars. I supported both operations from my base in Germany, and the former from aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf.) Sorry to shatter your illusions, but not everybody in the military blows shit up and kills indiscriminately. If all you wish to do is insult me and other users, do it somewhere other than on my talk page. This is not your soapbox. Horologium (talk) 12:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

What's so discourteous about the Greek alphabet? I didn't say you blew shit up and killed indiscriminately, but you obviously supported that kind of "patriotic" activity, even if only indirectly. As for who is insulting whom, I'm not the one hurling pejorative epithets against entire groups of editors. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Stay away from my talk page, Kekrops. I will be deleting any further communications from you here. Congratulations, you are the first person on Wikipedia who I have asked to go away from my talk page. Horologium (talk) 12:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I transliterate the way I learned when I was studying Greek in college, so perhaps you can correct my transliteration. (But putting a macron over the 'o' is just a lot of trouble when typing fast.) (Taivo (talk) 12:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC))

It's not the quality of your transliteration that is the problem, but the fact that you've not once had the courtesy to spell my name correctly. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course one could use an alternate transliteration in which long vowels are geminated giving us "Kekroops". •Jim62sch•^dissera! 16:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Horologium does have a valid point re real-life - if only some of the knuckleheads on that page would get lives. I'd walk too, but I seem to like tilting at windmills. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 21:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The sad thing is, I know Niko, and I know he actually does have a life. Hey Niko, go and play with your kids or do something nice with your wife or go buy the other half of the Balkans. Why are you doing this to us? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps he's trying to give you the hint? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue that discussion; the three Greek editors are more interested in legal hair-splitting than in actual discussion. I'm not sure if I can be considered a non-interested party at this point, because I certainly stirred up a hornet's nest in just a few hours on the talk page, despite my only edit to the article (or any of its associated pages) being the protection a few days ago. If I see edit warring again when protection expires, I will wade in, but I am entering the final two weeks of my classes for this academic year; I'm going to be too busy with classes to spend a lot of time dealing with nationalistic idiots (yes, I called them nationalistic idiots; see WP:SPADE).

The thing that amuses me is that the only contact I've had with any of the participants in this little drama-fest occurred in September 2007, when I was cleaning up user categories. Fut.Perf contacted me on behalf of NikoSilver about a user category which I had successfully nominated for deletion, inquiring whether it should be recreated. I didn't agree with the arguments which were presented, but as a relatively new user, I was not going to push back against a pair of established users. It seems that relations between Fut.Perf and NikoSilver have deteriorated since that point. :\ Hopefully this can be resolved without breaking out the Banhammer of Trollslaying +5, but I feel it is doubtful at this point. Horologium (talk) 00:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Just don't put Banhammer in a place where it will rust ;) (Taivo (talk) 00:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC))

Horologium, please do not leave from Greece-related and Macedonia-related articles. It might seem improbable to you but please help in keeping a degree of civility and preventing abuse. Use the banhammer with all your force to everybody who deserves it. Stay for a while, especially now.--Avg (talk) 20:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, just so you know, I wasn't aware there was an edit war going on: the edit summary raised a few flags for me. I suppose I should look next time. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 17:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that was pretty much what I thought would happen--edit war in full force even before I realized Greece was off protection. Thanks for being very alert, Horologium, and putting out the flames quickly. (Taivo (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC))

Kinda sad when one can easily predict conflict -- well, maybe not: after all Churchill warned about the second world war and the iron curtain and no one took him seriously until both were faits accomplis. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 19:36, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for reverting the vandalism on my talk page. Wperdue (talk) 01:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)wperdue

Macedonia

I agree with your recent comments on the ANI page. I might have used a bit stronger language however. John Carter (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

You didn't hear my initial reaction. (wry grin) It was, um, substantially less refined than my AN/I post. Horologium (talk) 20:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably, "what the %$#@ are you doing". It was indeed bad timing, and, to me, a bad idea period. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 20:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Wholehearted agreement. John Carter (talk) 20:58, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

If I may, there's more to it. It was obvious he was going to do it by yesterday, when he moved Macedonia to Macedonia (disambiguation). I specifically asked him on the talk page if this was his purpose and he only said that he made a "minor" change. So he outrightly lied about his intentions.--Avg (talk) 21:01, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

(E/C with Chris) I don't watch that page. I only watch the Greece page because I protected it, and am actively participating in the discussion there. I like to keep my watchlist to a manageable size, and adding all of the potential flashpoints for this dispute would quadruple the size of the watchlist, and probably cause me to go postal. I doubt that my neighbors, classmates, and teachers would appreciate that. As I said on Talk:Greece, I am aware of the real-world dispute, and I am now aware of the scope of the dispute on Wikipedia. I'm not interested in starting a crusade, (the week my finals start!), and I had no idea that the move was coming. Whether or not I support the move (and I haven't decided), his decision to do it right before arbitration, right before a *major* Orthodox holiday, really rubs me the wrong way. Horologium (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest that you guys take a look at the policy rationale rather than getting hung up on the procedure. Procedural discussions have got nowhere over the past seven years because of the filibustering of individuals like Avg. This is fundamentally an issue of policy. If you disagree with the policy rationale, it would be helpful if you could address that. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Chris, as I alluded to in my posts (above, and at AN/I), you were aware that the arbitration was going to be requested next week, and making such a move right before arbitration is very bad form indeed. It smacks of gaming the system. You should have addressed this during the arbitration, which (if accepted) is going to result in a final decision on this issue. This move only serves to ratchet up the acrimony another level. I supported you over the content guideline contretemps, but not here. Horologium (talk) 21:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't suspect any ulterior motive, Chris, but the timing was bad, and I'm not so sure bout the application of policy. Maybe you could explain why the move was OK? •Jim62sch•^dissera! 21:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually the timing was fine - it puts the policy issues on the table and gives the Arbcom a clear set of issues to address. Better to do it in a controlled fashion that can be reviewed by the Arbcom. Nothing is permanent and the renaming is small-scale - just one article; none of the related articles have been renamed. It can always be rolled back if the Arbcom disagrees on the policy issues. They won't, though. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Small note about collateral changes to other articles: people may notice that I've been doing some link-changing in other articles to reflect the new situation. Just to dispel any suspicions, I'm not doing anything to cement the new solution by "creating facts on the ground". Rather the opposite – I'm fixing old direct links that went direct to Macedonia and for the most part should never have been there in the first place (when that was the dab page). I'm changing them to either Macedonia (disambiguation) or Republic of Macedonia, which will remain safe and unambiguous redirects no matter what the final outcome will be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

"New solution" sounds bad. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 21:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I happen to believe that it actually is a reasonable solution, on the merits of the case. No matter what the process and no matter what the final outcome. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like Endlosung. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 21:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Avg. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

So you don't respond to me, but you will to ArbCom.--Avg (talk) 21:29, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Take this somewhere else, both of you. I don't want a pissing contest between two other users on my user page. Horologium (talk) 21:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Notification

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Move of the article Republic of Macedonia to Macedonia by User:ChrisO and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks,--Yannismarou (talk) 03:56, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

consensus my ass

one editor reverting the same edit from five different editors, and you consider the one editor to have consensus? nice one. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 11:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I am referring to the previous discussions (look at the talk page), not the spate of recent edits kicked off a few days ago. There has been an effort to add his name to the Sarah Palin article for some time now, and it's frankly inappropriate. He's not (yet) notable, although if the rumored TV deal goes through, he'll merit an article of his own, which will undoubtedly include plenty of detail about the whole pregnancy. But until notability is established, there is no reason to add his name to a BLP about his ex-girlfriend's mother. Horologium (talk) 11:38, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I guess I didn't look back far enough, and to be honest I would rather take your word for it than hunt back any further. I see it as notable and not harmful to keep the name, but also I don't see any major harm in removing a detail that is pretty much common knowledge - I might check for further developments, but for the time being it is probably better for me to leave things as they are. Thanks for the reply. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: BLP watch

Hmm, alright; Synergy had asked me personally on IRC to delete it, but I'll restore it. Thanks, –Juliancolton | ^Talk 21:13, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I replied at my talk page (intentionally avoiding the talkback template :) ) –Juliancolton | ^Talk 21:38, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, —— nixeagle^{email me} 03:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Nick ts

I noticed you'd blocked Nick ts (talk · contribs) earlier for edit-warring on 2008 Greek riots. He's continued since he came off his block and in fact hasn't done anything but edit-war for the last week. Time for a longer block? -- ChrisO (talk) 11:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been away for a while, and won't be on much until Wednesday, but I'd say that he qualifies as a disruptive SPA. He could be indeffed and the project wouldn't suffer. I don't have the time or the inclination to deal with him now, though. Horologium (talk) 00:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)