User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki/Archive 7

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Cookies.

Just tried your cookies - absolutely amazing, thanks for the recipe! Go add them to wikibooks:Cookbook :) Nippoo 20:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Response.

I don't see why you'd think of them as oyaji. Regardless, I don't quite feel like arguing about whether or not Bowser is a yaoi beefcake furry icon, but it doesn't matter on Wikipedia. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Sure it matters. Wikipedia isn't Nintendo Power. It isn't a press release center. It's an orthodox article repository, and how a topic is received by its fans is equally worth documenting as the topic itself. And it doesn't matter if the intended target audience of the topic is children, and a huge fan base are gay or beefcake artists. It's relevant, and Wikipedia does not practice censorship. - Gilgamesh 03:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, you made a good point about the Cowboy Bebop argument. Let's meet our points halfway, shall we? A brief mention of Bowser's popularity in fan material by fans young and old, without necessarily a mention of his sex symbol status. That kind of detail can be left in articles that address those issues, and can be found by encyclopedia readers interested enough in them to learn more. - Gilgamesh 04:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Biblical Hebrew transliterations

What's your source for the Biblical Hebrew transliterations on Hebrew alphabet? Biblical Hebrew language disagrees with them on many points, and it gives a source. —Simetrical (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It's been a while since I edited that article. But I think you're talking about the Tiberian vocalization. - Gilgamesh 01:57, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't an academic reconstruction be more suited to the article than an oral tradition that was quite probably, from what we know about language, heavily corrupted? —Simetrical (talk) 03:16, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It is academic. It has the greatest detail of the most ancient firmly-attested transliteration systems. Many older clues exist, particularly where words were loaned into other languages such as Greek and Arabic, and what is known about closely related languages like Moabite, Punic and Ugaritic, but some of the finer details are speculative. Tiberian is clearly established and probably the best academic balance between age and lack of controversy. - Gilgamesh 03:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article definitely seems to indicate that it's an oral tradition representing a specific local pronunciation, not any kind of academic reconstruction. —Simetrical (talk) 21:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's a very special oral tradition. It was the one used for the Masoretes. - Gilgamesh 00:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The fact is, though, language changes over time. This is always true. No oral tradition will preserve pronunciation over a millennium. The Masoretes were special, yes, but only due to their effect on Hebrew, not due to their special knowledge of Hebrew. —Simetrical (talk) 06:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Find an older pronunciation scheme that can be empirically attested and not outrage Haredi Wikipedians as much as I've done. - Gilgamesh 07:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. Since your discussion is continuing and no longer concerns what Gilgamesh had in mind personally, I invite you both to continue publicly at "Talk:Hebrew alphabet". I'm placing additional comments there. --Hoziron 00:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, responses posted there. —Simetrical (talk) 05:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedian linguists recategorization

The user categorisation scheme for linguistics has changed. Henceforth there are separate categories for Wikipedians who are professional linguists (Category:Wikipedians by profession→Wikipedian linguists) and Wikipedians who simply have an interest in linguistics (Category:Wikipedians by fields of interest→Wikipedians interested in linguistics). You are currently listed under the former category; please reassign yourself if necessary. —Psychonaut 17:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Category:LGBT computer and video games

I wanted to invite you to contribute at Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:LGBT_computer_and_video_games, since you posted on it's talk page. Thanks for your time. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 19:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Bikini

Hi, can you provide some evidence for the word Bikini being seen as offensive by some people, perhaps a newspaper article? I'm not sure it is valid to substitute two piece at the top just because it offends a small minority otherwise we would be changing things all over Wikipedia in order not to offend any group of people. Thanks Arniep 19:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot about this. Well, to be honest, it doesn't get a whole lot of coverage, but everyone I know who knows about the history of bikini, Bikini Atoll and Castle Bravo find this use of a nuclear event utterly tasteless and despicable, like turning a murder into a murder-rape. However, I can't provide sources for this (I never imagined I'd need sources when the facts seem so plain and evident), I won't oppose its removal pending established external sources. - Gilgamesh 13:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Some article moves

I noticed that you moved some Israeli locale articles, notably Arad and Sha'ab, to names with a symbol. I have all language scripts installed (using WindowsXP), and still see an ugly square in the place of that character. Viewing the pages with UTF-8. What is the character, and can we replace it with one that is universally accepted for Hebrew transliterations, like the apostrophe? Also, a Google test shows that your transliteration of Kfar Sirkin (Kefar Syrkin) returns very few results, none of which are actually related to the village. I'll probably move it back later. Please get back to me with your thoughts. -- Ynhockey || Talk 11:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Edit: I've checked the issue with other browser and it seems that Opera displays the character correctly, but not in all instances. I still think it should be changed to an apostrophe though - so everyone can see it for sure, plus, doesn't Wikipedia have a policy that article names should be made according to the most commonly used name rather than the correct transliteration? If I find the policy page, I'll post a link. -- Ynhockey || Talk 11:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've found it, the policy is here and a summary can be found here. -- Ynhockey || Talk 11:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't really aware of the "use English words" policy, but I won't dispute it. As for the characters in the articles themselves, if I recall, it's a MSIE issue where the browser chooses the first available font, but will try to show all the characters in the text in that font, whether or not the characters are available in that font. Opera and Mozilla-based browsers go down the list for every single text character for a fuller display that uses mixed fonts when necessary. When Wikipedia started assigned default fonts, I foresaw this effect immediately, but I decided that, for a reusable database that Wikipedia is, I shouldn't "fix" the text by breaking its Unicode diversity just to conform with one or two Windows fonts as they display on MSIE—that would be POV. It would be better for Wikipedia to assign no fonts anywhere. This way, even MSIE (bewilderingly and in no other situations) does the same per-character font assignment technique that Opera and Mozilla use. - Gilgamesh 19:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Transliteration of Israeli city name

We've been through this a year ago, but I think it's time for another discussion. Please take a look at Talk:Naẓerat ʻIllit

  • On a slightly different tack, I added 4 columns so that it would be simple to see which cities don't (yet) have names in Arabic in Wiki. Could you supply some of the missing names? The basic reason for my tabularizing (?) the list was so that both forms of a city's name - the way it appears in newspapers and the web, and the way it appears in Encarta or Google:Earth could be side-by-aside for easy reference. Your additions to the "Gazeteer's" column would also be welcome D'n 06:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew naming conventions

Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 17:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Bot making changes

You may eventually see this on pages you are working on, but User:Curpsbot-unicodify is a "bot" that is changing the glottal stops back to the single quote (') character. I have asked him to stop, but it may take more than me to have an impact and I know you were very concerned at one time that this not be done - Marshman 19:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Easy. Instead of using ‘ as you insisted, we use ʻ, which in Unicode is actually classified as a letter and was specifically designed for both Hawaiian and the transliteration of Semitic languages like Hebrew and Arabic. Sorry, but I have to agree—‘ is simply not proper anymore for Hawaiian, regardless of whether it's displayable in the typical MSIE browser. The solution is probably to use the {{Unicode|template}} or similarly designed templates, which—as I understand it—either assigns appropriate system fonts for the task, or (as with the Unicode template) turns off all specifically-assigned fonts so that even a browser like IE will scour the system looking for available fonts that support the characters shown. The Office font Arial Unicode MS supports ʻ and ʼ. - Gilgamesh 07:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Whatever change was made by Curpbot, it appears to be assigning a readible, and I assume, correct character now. What should we use when we write articles? None of the suggestions you make here produce a readible character (just boxes) which is far worse than a simple single quote. The Curpbot coding is not evident in edit mode, so we are forced to use either ' or &lsquo ; when producing text. Or is the correct item included in the insert list at the bottom of the edit mode page ? - Marshman 18:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The bot is adding this (‘) for an ‘okina. I'm not getting any information on what it is or if it is correct, but it does appear correct to me - Marshman 02:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Please halt your changes to Hebrew names

Dear Gilgamesh: You are at it again! Stop your confusing changes to Hebrew names without consultations, such as at Hadera, Safed and others. I will revert all of them. IZAK 03:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I already stopped a few days ago when someone else asked. - Gilgamesh 08:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you participate in the discussion on naming conventions. You have previously played a large role in the transliteration of Hebrew names. JFW | T@lk 12:48, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Already there as of a day or two ago. I had no idea this subject had so much interest—I assumed it would go in the Hebrew languages WikiProject I set up precisely for discussion such as these. But no one had spoken about it for a very long time. - Gilgamesh 13:15, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Article moves

Hi Gilgamesh

I have a number of articles on Israeli settlements on my watchlist. Several of them (notable Har Homa and Beitar Illit) have just upped and offed to new, barely recognisable locations: to wit, Har []oma and Beitar []illit (i.e. I get square boxes instead of characters as the first letter). This is extremely offputting. Do you think there is any way that these articles copuld use characters that will display normally on most computers, and if necessary confine problematic characters to a once-off "scientific transliteration"? I feel this would also be in the spirit, and probably the letter, of Wikipedia:Use English. Best, Palmiro | Talk 16:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

This has already been discussed here. I was first asked top stop days ago, and I did. Considering the newfound interest in this subject, I decided to yield and wait for concensus, and some of the article names have already been moved back. As for the displayable of characters, I tend not to think of it as my concern—it is the responsibility of the user, the browser and the operating environment to display the fonts. My concern is only the accuracy of the data and the use of proper Unicode—that's precisely what Unicode character spaces are set up for. - Gilgamesh 19:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Gilgamesh: Is "Unicode" the new "holy grail"? Most people using the Internet have no idea what the heck "Unicode" is or what in heaven's name the many other digital "bells and whistles" are that you love to use, and as you can see, it tends to cause others more frustration than happiness. IZAK 03:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll reply if you respond in a matter that is not condescending to me as a person. - Gilgamesh 09:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Templates

I just accidentally deleted one of your redirects to the new templates you have set up. Before I put it back, could you please explain to me what these new templates are for? They look a bit strange. Deb 14:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead and delete all the redirects. Since a few months ago, Wikipedia started mangling Hebrew niqqud dots so that, even when entered correctly by the editor, they appear mangled on page. However, since I started using templates to indicate each niqqud symbol instead, they always appear properly in Wikipedia edits. When each template is assigned by name, it's quick and easy for the editor to type the templates one after another as needed, and none of them display mangled. - Gilgamesh 14:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Templates

Hi. I saw that you had created Template:Hbrsindot and Template:Hbrshindot. Both of them seemed empty to me, so I added {{empty}} tags to them. Maybe you could tell me what you had in mind with these templates.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 14:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Read above. They are not empty—they contain a single Hebrew Unicode character each. In the case of those two templates, they show a single dot, which appears as a simple black pixel on the screen. They are intended to be used in inline text.
Thanks for that. They were so small that I didn't even notice them. I'll be more careful in the future.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 15:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I can see the okina laid down by the okina template. Is that now the correct "symbol" ? - Marshman 04:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is. It is used by the Hawaiian Wikipedia too. However, because it is a template, it can be negotiated. - Gilgamesh 05:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems like an excellent approach. While the Curpsbot was adding something that did appear as an 'okina (not a square box), I could not determine what it was adding or how to add it myself as an editor. - Marshman 19:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm incredibly happy with the approach. ^_^ Not only is it easy to enter (using nine English keystrokes a pop), but if we decide that the Unicode character (which is classified as a letter, not as punctuation) is not yet appropriate, then it can be changed into something else temporarily until most browsing environments catch up. However, I would personally vote to just let it the way it is for now, as how it is set up now already scours the user's installed fonts for any font with the character in it. Arial Unicode MS, Code2000, Thryomanes and other Unicode fonts support it. - Gilgamesh 19:45, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Wait

I don't want to sound accusative, but please check this page, as well as Google, for correct Israeli town spellings. For most, that one page should be your source, but some (like Yeroham) aren't widely-accepted, so Google is better. But please don't move to just something that sounds simple or whatever. Again, don't want to sound accusative, but with your recent bunch of redirects, it's becoming increasingly difficult to move these articles to their right destinations (which is the reason I'm not doing it). So, if you want to use the correct name, please try to do it right the first time. -- Ynhockey 18:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, it is much appreciated. ^_^ Besides, I didn't make the Yeroham redirect to begin with. :3 Also, the problem I've often run into is that even when there is a dry on-paper spelling used in official documents, Israeli Wikipedia users have often complained that it's never how they spell it in English, etc. So I try to rely on the spellings used by the municipality's homepage, etc. - Gilgamesh
Case in point, I've been chided before for trying to move Eilat, Israel to "Elat", and for changing names with "Kfar" to "Kefar" (some have been reverted) and Kiryat Arba to "Qiryat Arba" (which I still think is correct, but I ran into fierce opposition). This has turned out to be a lot more complicated with higher passions than I thought, and I'd rather not start more revert wars. - Gilgamesh 19:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yeah it can happen sometimes. I think it's pretty hard for someone not fluent specifically in Israeli Hebrew to know the correct spelling by intuition. But as I said, a Google test is the best way to find out if you're unsure the official spelling will work. I mean, in Israeli Hebrew, Eilat's i is pronounced clearly, sort of like Eylat. Same with other cases. Anyway, I'll just move some of those articles to more proper spellings myself then. I know some users might give you trouble over your moves, but don't take it personally :) -- Ynhockey 11:53, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Izak

Well, it seems like I've had similar problems to you with user Izak. See the discussion page for Red_string_(Kabbalah). Izak is certainly persistant- I'll give him that. I think I have to take some (half?) the blame for the pointless flame war we had, which seemed to end up with both of us upsetting the other. I'd be interested to hear your opinions. Respond on my talk page - or by email (christianjburnham@@@gmail.com, with only one @). If Izak reads this- well good, but I'm exhausted by being accused of all sorts of bad things. Christianjb 13:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

By the way- your usr page opinions are ludicrous! Everyone on this planet has suddenly gone crazy except me. That's why I'm proclaiming myself president of the world. Christianjb 13:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Is there a good reason for all these templates with unpronouncable names? DJ Clayworth 21:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a very good reason. They are names of niqqud. The problem is...many people cannot agree how to spell the niqqud names (e.g. nequddoth, nekuddot, nekudot, niqqud, nikkud, nikud, etc.), and some people will even say "That's now how you spell it! Here's how you spell it..." So, having multiple possible names for the same template allows an average Israeli or Hebrew scholar to input the niqqud name spelling of their choice, and have it confidently appear as they expect, whether they choose "qames", "qamez", "qamaz", "qamats", "kamatz", ... Got it? ^_^ - Gilgamesh 21:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
OK. Don't tell everyone about them, or people will be asking for a template to switch between Danzig/Gdansk. DJ Clayworth 22:48, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
That's just ridiculous. You just use the contemporary name of whatever the time period was. Just look at Viborg, Viipuri and Vyborg. - Gilgamesh 06:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Templates?

What's with all the crazy useless templates you're creating? --Oscarthecat 21:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Read up a bit, I explained. Templates like these are used in Hebrew linguistics articles to work around the problem of Wikipedia mangling niqqud (List of Hebrew names, List of traditional Hebrew place names, and brief mention in various articles with Hebrew names, etc.). And having different names for the templates accommodates all the different people (Israelis, other Israelis, Hebrew scholars, etc.) who not only cannot agree on how to spell the niqqud names, but also sometimes insist that their spelling is right and other spellings are wrong. Trust me...that gets tiresome after a while. This is the lesser of multiple evils. - Gilgamesh 21:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to break the news to you, but one of your templates is a "n." Someone may request deletion if you don't add something else (don't worry I am not, because I know you are working on them, someone else may). At any rate, good luck! Take care, εγκυκλοπαίδεια* (talk) 22:46, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Can you point me to which template is "n."? - Gilgamesh 22:48, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

By the way, the Hebrew letter צ and its final form ץ not only have two forms depending on position, but the letter has the most actively-used spelling variations of any Hebrew letter. In various places I've encountered:

  • sadhe
  • sadhi
  • zadhe
  • zadhi
  • zade
  • zadi
  • tsade
  • tsadi
  • tzade
  • tzadi

And even ideosyncratic variations like "tzoddi". If everyone could agree on one spelling, that would be very nice. Until then...lots of template redirects make sense. - Gilgamesh 23:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Not all of them would make sense, but Google's imperfect reading skills have created other idiosyncratic spellings like "tzodee". - Squee3 11:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, if it's okay, could you list every acceptable spelling you've seen of the Aramaic/Yiddish name for וּ? "m'lo foom" would obviously work.

pls unblock me

i have more than 3000 edits, see "user contributions" - i was blocked for no reason. User:Haham hanuka

I'm not an admin. - Gilgamesh 21:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
LOL,you two... --Procrastinating@talk2me 14:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Cookies

Have you ever added your cookie recipe to wikibooks:Cookbook? I recently discovered it myself, and found it pretty awesome. The more people that have access to great cookie recipes the better, I say. --Zytsef 13:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew/Yiddish templates

Much kudos to you for sorting all those out: I don't type either language myself but I can see that using those templates could save people a lot of bother. Thanks particularly for distinguishing between those which can safely be SUBSTituted and those which cannot.

Could I ask you a favour? Could you please add a little explanation to as many as you can manage (before the inevitable boredom sets in and you start bashing your head on your keyboard ;-))? The best place is probably in the <noinclude> section which currently contains the category: something like "This template inserts the Hebrew letter [[whatever]]…" would be brilliant. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 10:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ehud Ben Gera

You wrote that Ehud means union, but I've never heard of it or anything alike. I'd appreciate it if you reply on the talk page. conio.h • talk 01:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

ʻOkina in MSIE 6

Hi, Gilgamesh.

I applaud your creation of {{okina}}. I think it's a great idea and I would have done myself it if you hadn't already. It looks great in my copy of Firefox and Netscape. However, in my version of MSIE (6.0-blahblah winxp sp2), it still renders the character as a (narrow) block. I've made a test page to show how the various renderings look: User:Markkawika/Sandbox. Did you install any special fonts to get your MSIE to show the ʻokina correctly? I very much want MSIE users to be able to see the ʻokina in all its glory, but I desperately don't want them to see ugly rectangles. And that's what I see when I use MSIE (which is very rare). Markkawika 10:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Do you have either Arial Unicode MS or Code2000? Oh, and Mac users these days have no problem with the ʻokina, so that base is covered. :3 - Gilgamesh 13:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Help at Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.

Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. will be featured on the Main Page on the 23rd. Vandalism will probably be frequent that day. Could you help in monitoring the page? The 23rd starts at 7 pm ET on Dec 22nd, since wikipedia goes by UTC. Thx in advance. Trödel&#149;talk 01:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Template:Hebrewterm

Hi Gilgamesh: Please take a moment to review Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Hebrewterm. Thanks. IZAK 08:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew Alphabet

Saw this message, what do you think of it? IZAK 06:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC):

"I have rewritten the articles on all the Hebrew letters here and before I replace the pages, your input would be appreciated. Thanks! Sputnikcccp 16:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)"
Real Life™ got in the way, so I never checked it out. And then, when I came back to regular editing, I had other things on my mind. - Gilgamesh 06:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Lake Bonneville

It is a former lake. The lake that is there now isn't anything of the scope of what was Lake Bonneville; it's not the same lake. What was Lake Bonneville doesn't exist anymore. I think the category should be replaced. --DanielCD 16:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Then rightly Lake Chad and the Aral Sea should be the same concept—the Aral Sea in particular is splitting into two lakes because it keeps shrinking. But if one were to categorize these as former lakes, someone might want to revert it. I think the difference is human timescale—Lake Bonneville largely shrunk to its remnants in prehistory, but these other lakes have been shrinking in recorded history. Maybe there should be an intermediate category, something like "Shrunken lakes" or something similar. - Gilgamesh 17:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe. I guess the fact of prehistory was my big sell point; it was a biiiiig lake at one time. Plus all the intermediate levels of the lake are all referred to under LB, even though the levels have unique names. Fascinating to be there and see all the lines of each former level running along the base of the Wasatch range. I put the category back and left a comment, but I'll leave it to your discretion as to whether or not to remove it again. --DanielCD 17:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
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