Template:Did you know nominations/List of operas by Claudio Monteverdi

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Coffeeandcrumbs (talk) 08:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

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List of operas by Claudio Monteverdi

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  • Reviewed: SS Dongola, 2nd article
  • Comment: best on the composer's birthday 15 May, and sorry for being late

Moved to mainspace by Aza24 (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 22:08, 9 May 2020 (UTC).

  • The hook wording is rather confusing: would it be better to say instead that L'Orfeo is (from what I can tell from the article) the oldest opera that is still regularly performed today? I'm sure that hook fact, if worded properly, would interest even non-opera fans. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:24, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
ALT1 ... that L'Orfeo, which premiered in 1607 and is one of the three surviving operas by Claudio Monteverdi, is the oldest opera still regularly being performed today?
Would you be fine with this wording? I'm not sure how to avoid the repeated use of the word "opera" so this could probably be revised further. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer, however, I feel that it would be a good hook about L'Orfeo, but not the operas. What do others think? It could also be shortened by dropping the date, because I feel a clause with two points retards the key fact for too long? And I think the key fact should be at the end. And I think "surviving" might raise curiosity, and perhaps more than "oldest" whatever. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Suggesting a variant of both of the prior hooks—ALT0 is oddly structured, and ALT1 puts L'Orfeo before the operas:
Another approach might be to note that L'Orfeo was written when Monteverdi was 39, while the other two are from his 70s, but that information would need to be added to the article. —BlueMoonset (talk) 05:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for helping my awkward English. I think that he wrote operas when younger and older is not as specific as him writing at the very beginning of opera, and the first of them to last. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Full review needed now that hook is set. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Article was moved to mainspace on the day it was nominated, it is long enough and new enough at the time of the nomination. A QPQ has been done and no close paraphrasing was found. Assuming good faith for the source as it is offline. As I suggested the "oldest opera still regularly being performed" hook fact, a new editor is needed to sign off ALT2, although I have some concerns that the "is the oldest opera" wording could be reasonably misinterpreted to only be referring to the three operas rather than opera as a whole. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
... and if so, would it matter? ... it's of course also true. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
The hook fact is supposed to be about L'Orfeo being the oldest opera in general still being performed regularly, not just that it's Monteverdi's oldest surviving opera. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
And - pardon - which other composer would that be writing which opera still performed today before 1607? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
That sounds good and more accurate. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Narutolovehinata5, was there something else needed that prevented you from completing your review with an approval? BlueMoonset (talk) 13:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset: I introduced the "oldest opera still being performed" hook fact so I can't approve a hook that mentions it. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed to check ALT2a hook. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:03, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
  • The ALT2 hook fact is not correct according to the source, which groups L'Orfeo together with two operas by Henry Purcell as the most often performed 17th-century operas. The source says nothing about it being the "oldest" opera performed either. It seems to me that ALT2 is more accurate, as the second clause appears to be talking about Monteverdi operas, not operas in general. Yoninah (talk) 19:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
  • I can't follow. The source talks about Purcell's Dido and Aeneas (one opera), and however many, Purcell was born more than 50 years after L'Orfeo was performed, which makes L'Oreo really singular, - wordsmithing welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Then we need a source that says L'Orfeo is the oldest extant opera still performed today. I can't read a source that groups it with Purcell and know that L'Orfeo is older. Yoninah (talk) 20:03, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
We have several sources (not in this article) saying when Purcell was born (1659) but what would they have to do with the Monteverdi list? Readers might rub their eyes about such a thing required by DYK formalism, instead of common sense. Can't things such as when Purcell and Shakespeare were born taken as common knowledge? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Well, I found a source] without Purcell for what simply IS rather common knowledge. Will add to the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
"then we need a source": "With Orfeo, Monteverdi created the first opera that both survived the centuries and stuck in the repertory" NPR; "an opera, the first masterpiece in the genre" J.E. Gardiner, in The Guardian"; "This is considered by many musicologists and music lovers to be the birth of Western Opera." France Musique RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:20, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks, RandomCanadian. The article can only benefit if you'd like to add these sources to it. Yoninah (talk) 20:28, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
    I added the one I found, "the first opera to maintain a place in the modern repertory". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
    The "birth" thing is a less precise description, because it wasn't the first, just the - by far - first to still be regularly performed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:39, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Thank you both. ALT2a good to go. Yoninah (talk) 20:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
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