Template:Did you know nominations/Donald H. Elliott
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
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Donald H. Elliott
- ... that Donald H. Elliott, in his role as chairman of the New York City Planning Commission, helped lead the city out of the Robert Moses era? Source: "Donald H. Elliott, who as chairman of the City Planning Commission in the late 1960s and early ’70s proposed a visionary master plan for New York, imposed innovative urban design standards for public and private projects, and enlisted local communities in government decision-making...Mr. Elliott recruited a team of young progressive architects who were frustrated by decades of Robert Moses’ urban renewal by bulldozer diplomacy and by the city’s bureaucratic embrace of drab, Stalinesque architecture for public works. In so doing, he indelibly altered the cityscape.He oversaw the establishment of special zoning districts that preserved midtown theaters, retailers on Fifth Avenue and the historic South Street Seaport from major development and helped deliver the final death knell for the proposed Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would have skewered Greenwich Village, a last gasp for Mr. Moses as a city and state public-works power broker."
The New York Times
Created by Thriley (talk) and 9H48F (talk). Nominated by Thriley (talk) at 19:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC).
This is more of a comment than a review (I may do a full review later), but I was wondering if a different hook could be proposed here since the current one doesn't really appeal much to people who don't know Moses. Perhaps a hook more specifically about his own accomplishments? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
- Commenting here because this also caught my attention (NLH5 mentioned this to me off-wiki but the opinions are my own). What exactly does it mean to lead NYC out of the Robert Moses era? Moses was so influential as parks commissioner, TBTA head, and highway planner that any successor in any one of these positions could conceivably "help lead the city out of the Moses era". The NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission could have helped done that as well, just because it made the SoHo historic district. My point is that, even with knowledge of who Moses is, the hook is still unfortunately not that clear. Epicgenius (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Thriley: Please respond to the concerns raised above, as it has been a week since the comments. The nomination may be failed if any article or hook concerns are not addressed soon. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:18, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
I agree with the critique. He of course was part of a movement away from the ideas of Moses and the mega projects. It wouldn’t be right to imply that he was in a position of power in the way Moses was. I’ll have to think of an alternative. Thriley (talk) 20:41, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
- ALT1: ... that Donald H. Elliott's town planning schemes for New York helped to combat poverty? - or something one those lines? Storye book (talk) 22:15, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Review needed, please, by the above commentators or anyone else? Storye book (talk) 22:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- Article was moved to mainspace within the required timeframe. It's long enough and new enough at the time of nomination, and a QPQ has been done. There are however some minor article issues that need to be addressed: his date of birth and date of death are both unreferenced in the article. There's also no information about his later life (or indeed anything after 1975). There's also an "External links" section that is empty. Finally, I'm not really a fan of ALT1 either: it's quite vague. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:18, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, Narutolovehinata5. In response to the above review, I have cited the bmd dates (previously already cited but lumped in with other text and all cited as one). I have added a link into the Ext. links section, which was there waiting for the authority control template to kick in (I don't know if he has a Wikidata number; I'll check). I could not find a source for life after 1975 - maybe he was rich enough to retire. I could only read a part of the NYT article because it's behind a paywall. As for ALT1, it has to match the sources, and vague is what we got. Now, I'll go and check his Wikidata (if any). ETA gottim. His Wikidata number is Q110316787. It's an almost bare page, so I'll add in what I can. Storye book (talk) 12:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. Is there really noting else that could be added to the later life section, including at the very least his death? As for ALT1, I'm still not a fan of it and I would suggest either a rewording or some clarification as to exactly what he did. If it doesn't work out then unfortunately closure may have to be considered. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, Narutolovehinata5 I would like to address some of your concerns,
but real life is about to interrupt me. I hope to be able to get back to this tomorrow or Wednesday. Somebody please ping me if I have not edited the article by Wednesday? I shall need to do some research, first, of course.Storye book (talk) 11:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. Courtesy ping to nominator Thriley to see if they can help address any concerns too. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5. For your elucidation and delectation, I give you the very slightly expanded Mister Elliott, who now has a death, two publications, a wife, an affinity with a certain political party, and life after 1973. Oh, and a photo. Enjoy. Storye book (talk) 22:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the expansion. However, the hook's issues still need to be addressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:00, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. Courtesy ping to nominator Thriley to see if they can help address any concerns too. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, Narutolovehinata5 I would like to address some of your concerns,
- Thank you. Is there really noting else that could be added to the later life section, including at the very least his death? As for ALT1, I'm still not a fan of it and I would suggest either a rewording or some clarification as to exactly what he did. If it doesn't work out then unfortunately closure may have to be considered. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- ALT2: ... that Donald H. Elliott's efforts as director of New York's planning department helped change the city's skyline? Source: [1] "Regional Plan of New York and Its Environs, published in 1929, or the Plan for New York completed by the City Planning Commission 40 years later ... The most enduring legacies of the 1969 plan were the special zoning configurations that helped resculpt Manhattan's skyline and the imaginative efforts to reshape the social agenda ... Donald Elliott, who was chairman of the City Planning Commission ..."
- There are other possible good hooks in connection with Elliott and his team doing a whole lot of clever political/legal/financial juggling to get the Museum of Modern Art both money and space here - but I can't work out which (since renamed?) museum that is. Storye book (talk) 12:59, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
- That would be a good idea: perhaps local NYC expert Epicgenius can help out here and check the source too? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:21, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding ALT2, the source only tangentially mentions Elliott once:
"In the '60's, government was expected to make society better and everybody believed it could do so," said Donald Elliott, who was chairman of the City Planning Commission when the 1969 plan was published. "In the '80's, people are skeptical."
I don't believe it directly supports the hook. - As for MoMA, I don't think the museum mentioned in Storye book's link was renamed. Rather, the interview seems to be about the Museum Tower, an apartment tower that was proposed next to MoMA in the 1970s, along with a new wing and a new public gallery there. This involved a lot of controversy because the project involved taking advantage of MoMA's status as a nonprofit museum. Not only could the tower be exempt from real estate taxes, but it would also use the unused air rights above the museum to expand its floor area (that's a whole different thing in itself. Anyway, my point in saying this is that Donald H. Elliott was involved in pushing for developer "incentives", which allowed developers to expand their buildings in exchange for some public benefit - like the Theater District special zoning area, where office buildings like Paramount Plaza got bonus floor area in exchange for including a theater at the base. I think he was involved in one of the early plans for redeveloping 42nd Street as well during the late 70s/early 80s. Epicgenius (talk) 00:12, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Epicgenius: Re the source for ALT2 - I was previously able to read the contents of that source, before the paywall came down. Now that paywall is coming down quickly and I cannot read it at all, so I must take your word for the fact that it does not support the hook. I am puzzled, though, as what I read did support the hook. I am wondering now, whether I had been looking at another source which mentions the skyline thing in relation to Elliott? I have checked all the non-New York Times sources for the skyline thing, and cannot find it, so I must have seen it behind the paywall somehow. The article's creator must have found it too, because it is in the article. Sorry I cannot help further. Re the Museum of Modern Art - thank you for the information. It doesn't look promising for a hook, though. Storye book (talk) 09:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Storye book: Regarding the NY Times source, it should be accessible through ProQuest on The Wikipedia Library, if you want to verify that. (You could also check to see if the Times article was archived on the Wayback Machine or something else.) Epicgenius (talk) 13:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, Epicgenius. I have accessed the NYT source via the WP Library, and added the relevant quote to ALT2 above. That bit doesn't mention Elliott's name, but since he was running that Planning Commission, we can say that as director he helped do what the Planning Commission did. Sometimes it's necessary to read the whole source, because a page search isn't enough. I shall add the quote to the citation in the article. Storye book (talk) 08:03, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- Wouldn't there need to be a direct statement saying that Elliott was involved with what happened? Because without a direct source ALT2 will probably need to either be reworked or dropped entirely. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:29, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comment, Narutolovehinata5. No there would not, unless the article were intended for five-year-olds. In the same article it says that Elliott was chairman of the Planning Commission in 1969. We also know that he was director in 1969 from other sources anyway. Whatever the Planning Commission did in 1969, Elliot was therefore responsible for it. He carried the buck, as does POTUS for the decisions of the US government. The principle is the same. If you run the show, then you get the credit as well as the liability for what the show does. Understanding that is a matter of commonsense. I don't see how any intelligent person could read that article thoroughly, and say that Elliott had nothing to do with the 1969 plan which the article claims changed the skyline. Storye book (talk) 14:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Are there any other possible hook options here? Because if there aren't any then we can go with ALT2. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:58, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, Narutolovehinata5. Much appreciated. Storye book (talk) 11:34, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Are there any other possible hook options here? Because if there aren't any then we can go with ALT2. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:58, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Wouldn't there need to be a direct statement saying that Elliott was involved with what happened? Because without a direct source ALT2 will probably need to either be reworked or dropped entirely. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:29, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Storye book: Regarding the NY Times source, it should be accessible through ProQuest on The Wikipedia Library, if you want to verify that. (You could also check to see if the Times article was archived on the Wayback Machine or something else.) Epicgenius (talk) 13:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Epicgenius: Re the source for ALT2 - I was previously able to read the contents of that source, before the paywall came down. Now that paywall is coming down quickly and I cannot read it at all, so I must take your word for the fact that it does not support the hook. I am puzzled, though, as what I read did support the hook. I am wondering now, whether I had been looking at another source which mentions the skyline thing in relation to Elliott? I have checked all the non-New York Times sources for the skyline thing, and cannot find it, so I must have seen it behind the paywall somehow. The article's creator must have found it too, because it is in the article. Sorry I cannot help further. Re the Museum of Modern Art - thank you for the information. It doesn't look promising for a hook, though. Storye book (talk) 09:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding ALT2, the source only tangentially mentions Elliott once:
- That would be a good idea: perhaps local NYC expert Epicgenius can help out here and check the source too? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:21, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. It seems that no other proposal is going to work out so ALT2 is now approved. I personally feel that it's still too vague for my tastes, although an argument could be made that the vagueness in this case helps the hook since readers could be tempted to learn how he changed the city skyline. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:52, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
