Talk:Wolf's Rain/Archive 1

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Wolf's Rain or Wolf's Reign

Is the title of the show Wolf's Rain or Wolf's Reign. I've alwas thought it was reign. Reign would make more sence because the show deals a lot about when wolves ruled or reigned over the earth. Wolf's Rain makes no sence. I'm pretty sure there were never any wolves falling from the sky. However, everyone one on Wikipedia seems to think it's Wolf's Rain. So did somebpdy mistype it, is it a bad Japanese translation, or is the show actually called Wolf's Rain?

The show is most definitely called Wolf's Rain. See the official website. --alsotop 12:40, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Without spoiling the show, rain plays a certain part in the story. --Anon

I really don't remember rain playing any role in the story, except maybe at the very end, and even that I'm not even sure about. The theme of Paradise being ruled over by the wolves would suggest that the original translators messed up and somehow it was just never caught. I wholly agree with the original poster that Wolf's Reign would make more sense. Then again maybe its a double entendre, but I still don't see how the rain element makes sense. -CwH

Rain plays a very symbolic role in the story. Notice that in this world it never rains except at the end. The world is encased in snow or desert. Wolf's Rain is a reference to the rebirth of the world. When the world is reborn life will be allowed to return as the earth warms and the snow turns into rain. The rain is a result of the wolves. Thus the Wolf's Rain is the rebirth of the world.

Ahem... Perhaps the reason everyone calls it Wolf's RAIN is because the official DVDs come with this title ? See dvd cover Renmiri 11:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

If they mean "rain", why is the show called ウルフズ・レイン, Urufuzu Rein and not ウルフズ・雨, Urufuzu Ama. Ama = Rain. --87.168.83.44 —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 09:04, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

Official sites?

Whats the official site? Can someone post it here? (anon)

Done, some time ago. --Zetawoof 22:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Why Does it Need to be Expanded

This page looks pretty complete to me. I don't understand why this article needs to be expanded or needs an expert to look at it. Can someone please get rid of those messages. (anon)

Done, some time ago. --Zetawoof 22:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it could use some expansion. I came here looking for some explanation of the ending, a plot summary, or anything like that, and didn't find it. :\ --Ryajinor 00:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it needs expansion, more character info, (ex. Jagara), locations, trivia maybe...Yllianos 06:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers!

There is still a spoiler in Hige's character description (his collar). In addition, there are many details of the setting (or links to new articles) which could be expanded. For example- a description of the Nobles.

A possible solution: expand into "plot summary" or some sort of "development" section. There is no inherent reason for the plot details to be so entangled with the characters. I'm not quite sure what shape thise would take at the moment, or I'd write it right now. --24.4.246.13

Spoiler removed. Going for a full article on some of the setting details would be overkill, but a better description of the setting within the page would be very nice. --Zetawoof 08:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Why do you want to remove spoilers, just put up a warning so people who havnt seen the show and dont want to now what happens wont read it.

Errr... this is an encyclopedia, not a message board. Why worry about the spoilers? If people want to read spoilerless commentary about the show they are planning to watch, they should look it up elsewhere! • Ekevu • ♥ • ★ 11:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about you, but I actually first read the article in an attempt to get some of the names straight, and had some plot points spoiled badly. In any case, a lot of the spoilery information wasn't even marked as such. Zetawoof 03:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you know I updated the section only to have someone delete everything I wrote. Im VERY UPSET because this person only deleted the additions I wrote. I mean why would someone do that? (FacadeInfinity)--203.112.202.252 17:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be expanded, for an encyclopedia article about it to not even try explain what the nobles are is a bit silly.

Minor Incorrect Info

Kiba's character description mentions he was hesitant to take wolf form. It was quite the opposite...he was hesistant to take human form. 216.81.36.195

Not so much incorrect as unclear:

Darcia is close to killing Kiba, but instead he tries to open Pardise. It rejects him and he is killed. Kiba wanders around until he cannot walk any further.

Who is it who tries to open Paradise here? If 'he' means Darcia, then the sentence needs to be re-worded to make that clear. If 'he' means Kiba, some explanation of how he wanders around after being killed, and then dies a second time by drowning, would be helpful.

The page for Kiba is nice, but really it is incorrect about quite a few detials such as his character and role in the anime. Also people should make individual pages for the other wolves who are just as, if not even more significant, in the anime.

Negative space

Wow this page has a lot of negative space. Maybe someone should add some more info under the wolves' biographies. Also the humans only have about a sentence or two each, yet they played significant roles in the anime. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.50.179.67 (talk • contribs) .

The space is, unfortunately, necessary - the sections are short enough that, if that space is left out, the images start butting into each other, making things look even worse. Zetawoof^(ζ) 06:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not Class A ?

Err... The article looks great to me, possibly even a GA candidate. Any reason not to promote it to class A ? Renmiri 18:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's actually not even B-Class. (One measly single in-line citation.) I've demoted it to start. --Kunzite 20:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, is that's what's mising ? I'll dig up some more then! On the project I'm in most of our main pages are FA or GA... Renmiri 20:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This page tells nothing of the depth of the anime itself, and for anyone who watches it: it's a thousand-mile deeep anime just bleeding with symbolism. Only a plotline and some quite lackluster character descriptions, especially once you hit Hige and Toboe. To be honest, if done right and carefully, this show could have a page (and branching pages for perhaps the characters themselves, episodes and the origins of some of the parts of the anime, since it is based off of a true Native American legend) that are just as colorful and descriptive as Samurai Champloo and Naruto. I'd like to do some work on it and help out a bit, but time is not on my side though hopefully it will be sometime in the future. --CMCricket-unregistered 21:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a lot about the complex symbolism but it was earased by someone...

Because that would be WP:OR--SeizureDog 05:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Description of the show

The lead should have an explanation of what the show is actually about. As it stands, somebody who comes here with no prior knowledge won't be able to learn that without delving into the spoiler section. I'd do it, but I've never seen the series. Stilgar135 20:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I felt it necessary to add a trivia section, due to the interesting things that occur in the intro and ending.

Vandalism

I noted some vandalism ("It's raining Wolves! aleluiah! it's rainig wolves!!"), and removed it. This was all I spotted, so if anyone see any more, please remove it. I don't have the time right now. DJLarZ 13:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

30 OVA episodes?

In infobox I found that exist 26 TV and 30 OVA episodes. It's, how I know, is wrong, becouse are only 4 OVA episodes. Extate 18:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That's definitely wrong - whoever wrote that probably meant 26 TV episodes, and 30 in total. Fixed. Zetawoof^(ζ) 21:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there going to be more episodes?? Does some body know?

No, there aren't.--SeizureDog 20:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

PROPAGANDA?!

Why is there a link to the "Propaganda" article at the bottom of the page?

Further explain

Under the Edits section it says "In the beginning of episodes 25 and 26, there was some footage cut out that was very vital to the plot." You might want to expand that. --88wolfmaster 20:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Change to Overview Section

Everyone's thoughts?:

Above is what it would look like. My reasoning is as follows: this section is meant to be an introduction into the story, not a plot summary or theories section. Everyone's thoughts?--88wolfmaster 06:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Since no one seemed to object and the article itself called for a revision, i've made a start.--88wolfmaster 01:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

revert war

Ganryuu: All I did in the edit you reverted thrice ( was change the wording; the meaning remains the same. I didn't "remove" any information; I changed "must first seek out" to "are said to need". It's the same thing essentially. 128.113.146.138 18:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

"must first seek out" is more descriptive--88wolfmaster 04:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, there is a very slight difference. I left that phrase alone this time. --128.113.149.103 19:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ganryuu. Dude. You said "Secondly, the term "flower maiden" is an important part of the series and is not a fictional concept within the actual series" in your edit comment. I didn't even touch that part of the article this time. I changed "200" to "two hundred" (Again, WP:DATE#Numbers in words). And for why IMDb link should be there: See reason #3 in WP:LINKS#What should be linked; it has credits information that isn't encyclopedic. TV.com would serve the same purpose; maybe you don't need both but at least one is useful. --128.113.149.103 20:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the Anime News Network profile page for this series contains far more details and is much more suited to this article rather than IMDB, as this is an article regarding an anime television series, not a movie. Please see WP:EL and refrain from adding unnecessary external links. Secondly, numbers can also been used while describing the series's outline, and this has been prevalent in the article for a long period. You did indeed add apostrophes to the word flower maiden, which also should not be used. Please also see Wikipedia:Civility and refrain from incivil comments. Thank you. ···巌流^{? · Talk to Ganryuu} 20:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright, good point on the external link. I wasn't familiar with the ANN; I should have looked at it. As for the quotes on flower maiden, it's the first time the term is introduced in the article. I thought it made more sense to introduce it more cautiously; it didn't imply fictionalization to me. As for 200, though, why can raw numbers "also [be] used while describing the series's outline"? I thought the MoS was straightforward. Numbers are ugly. 'two hundred' is nicer. --128.113.149.103 20:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The term "200" is also used in the Japanese interwiki article for Wolf's Rain, by the way. ···巌流? · Talk to Ganryuu 20:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but the Japanese Wikipedia has a separate Manual of Style from the English one's. They're not coordinated and they don't have to be; they're not the same content. 128.113.149.103 20:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kiba0.jpg

Image:Kiba0.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Plotline of Wolf's Rain

This article really needs a plotline and not just a overview. Different interpretations of the ending are also missing.

Ryuuk 22:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hige.jpg

Image:Hige.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article could use some heavy duty cleanup. The story overview needs to be completely rewritten. It contains unsourced rumors (There have been rumors that the kitten...), personal interpretations of events in the show, and very informal and unencyclopedic language (By looking at it like this, you can pretty much guess what will happen next...) It also sounds argumentative, as if the author is rebutting arguments to some invisible party (Once the wolves and humans defeated the monsters, they created humanity (human society, not human beings) from a part of themselves...)

Many parts of the article also use weasel words to make personal observations and opinions sound factual. Here are some examples, all taken from this article:

It is assumed that it is this way... This could also be a reason why... It is debatable that this might suggest...

This is also carried out through the character overviews, in which an author has DECIDED, and tries to make sound factual with weasel words, which species of wolf each of the characters belong to without citing any sources.

Kiba seems to be an arctic wolf... Tsume seems to be... Hige seems to be... Toboe seems to be... Blue looks to be...

The actual physical description of the wolf form of the character is left out, and substituted by an unsourced guess at its species.

The theories and assumptions are given at certain points for character design and species because those details are not given outright. Thus it is only logical that one would hold a theory to describe the direct species each character was fashioned after.Though the word "seems" is rather overused it is the only way for the informer to clarify his/her most logical guess towards that matter without solidifying the statement entirely.Personally I believe that the links to the possible species are helpful and show that the art designers gave thought to more than one breed of wolf to express their characters. For example, in most animes only grey wolves or arctic wolves are used, but the use of Mexican, Arabian, and Eurasian Tundra wolf breeds display thought and research added to this anime.

Guesses do not belong in encyclopedias. They belong on fan pages. One can say the Kiba has white fur. One cannot say that he is an arctic wolf or seems to be an arctic wolf unless one has a credible source to back this up.

One would assume because he is given a rather stereotypical "wolf build" and has the said white fur that his desired look is that of an arctic wolf. The same with Toboe's Red/Arabian wolf fur length and body shape and Hige's signature Mexican wolf mane and bulk. It is often common sense that guesses are logical. Also, one might note that the anime itself is a rather cryptic story which is fashioned to leave the viewer with their own theories and opinions. Truly, there are hardly many answers given and the audience must fill in the holes. Ergo, so-called "weasel words" are almost appropriate and necessary.

It should be noted... SPOILER

somewhere than in the end every single main character died. That is "extremely" rare in any show, even rarer in an anime. It is a spoiler though, so someone should put a spoiler warning before it.

...Including your entry in this talk page! You just spoiled it for me! Adding *SPOILER* to your headline -Dracker 18:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but (bigger spoiler) the twist is that they don't stay dead. They all get reincarnated! And in the meantime they all get beautiful death scenes. Lee M 04:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a spoiler free zone, so no, it shouldn't be noted. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I notice that some of the character descriptions have now been expanded to include details of the characters' deaths, That may be encyclopedic, but it's also taking the "not a spoiler free zone" thing to extremes, apart from being fucking depressing. Lee M (talk) 05:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is sad. I still cry through all of the OVA episodes, even though I've watched it multiple times. But it is a part of their stories and their reincarnations are also noted in the plot section. The character descriptions need some rewriting, though, which I plan to do over the next two weeks along with a lot of article clean up. If it helps any, the whole character section will probably be moved off to List of Wolf's Rain characters during the clean up/overhaul. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the characters' deaths were unnecessary or badly handled in the series. I thought they were very well done and unbelievably powerful. (Keep telling yourself "It's not real. They're only drawings." Nope. That doesn't work. Poor little Toboe.) Even so, if casual visitors look at the character descriptions and see all the deaths they might decide there's no point watching the series and that'd be a shame. I guess what I'm saying here is that even if Wikipedia isn't a spoiler-free zone, it shouldn't be Spoiler City either. It needs to strike a balance. Lee M (talk) 05:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I agree (Toboe really gets me every time). Still, it is one unfortunately problem sometimes with a show like this with so many deaths. I've had a devil of a time working on Blood+ because I haven't seen the whole series but I've been spoiled to most of the ending because of editing the articles. Still, while it may seem bad for new viewers to the series, it is in keeping with the precedence on other anime series that have deaths at the end. I think moving it to a list of will help, as what will be left here will be a more general discussion, so someone who hasn't seen it would get a general idea without getting the full details. AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Praise

This is a beautiful, fluid, hopeful story set in a tragic world. Supposedly the end is near and there is a legend that paradise will open up but wolves would be the only ones able to find. The flower maiden (Cheza) is the beacon to lead them to this heaven, however for reasons not explained she is very valuable to humans and wolves alike. The tale follows four young wolves trying to seek out the "flower".

This a great anime. I've seen it inumerable times and I still come back wanting more. The music is haunting and simply gorgeous, and the animation is top notch. Characters develope well and are easy to fall in love with, however at times it can very melonchalic and dreary, but there is real poetry to it your not going to find in any other anima. If you like slapstick comedy this is not the show for you... however if you enjoy deep characters, complex storylines, beautifully rendered animation and music,plenty of bloody fights, joy and saddness, your in for a treat! I give it my highest recomendation! 10/10.

Actually, it's set in Earth's remote past. And it is one of the finest ANIME to appear on TV in a very long time. The integrity of the story was kept in tact! Jason Palpatine 18:39, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

The city that springs up at the end of episode 30 does look a lot like 20th-century Earth. On the other hand, in the "Staff Interviews" section of Disc 2, Masahiko Minami [?says?said] (as translated in the subtitles):

"For one thing, we don't even say if it's the Earth. [...] If we declared it was the future, it would really limit your imagination, because everyone has a somewhat fixed idea of what the future will be like. We wanted to avoid that in this series, so we got rid of all traces of that."

I conclude that Wolf's Rain's universe has no direct connection to our own. -Andrew Nagy 68.39.193.120 21:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

There's another scene at the beginning of one of the OVA eps that shows a bridge that looks a lot like it's on modern Earth. I don't remember which ep, but I remember the voice-over being "Paradise is a place that is opened by someone". Maybe the interview took place before whoever the director of that episode was decided differently? --DocumentN 02:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

About its location, in many scenes it is clear they drink vodka. In the first scenes of cities there are some signs and bilboards written in russian as well as labels in the vodka bottles. The cold climate, frozen seas, and the constant snow for most of the show leads to believe it developped in Siberia. It could also be the future regarding the kind of technology that is used, very well as it has been stated into some "post apocalyptical time" kept purposedly frozen in their past by the nobles seeking to use the world around them to fulfil their own purposes. -Luis F Lopez —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.118.225.162 (talk) 15:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

I can't quite make out what the above comment is saying. --DocumentN 02:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

He's arguing that the setting of the film is likely Russia.--SeizureDog 05:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If it's Russia where do the Native American tribe come from? Lee M 04:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

Possible worth mentioning in the article?

The AnimeCentral run uses the Japanese title sequences. This seems odd considering that English versions are available, as witness the Bandai DVDs.
The closing image of the opening title shows a flower in the rain - compare the closing image of the Cowboy Bebop closing title. Also, the shapes in the final image of the opening title very subtly form the shape of a wolf's head.

Lee M 04:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it's trivial and OR.--SeizureDog 08:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Trivia is highly discouraged and the latter is pure OR. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The observation that Bebop and WR use similar imagery is one that anybody could make. I happened to notice it because AnimeCentral showed the two series back to back.

Anyway, who defines what is trivia and what isn't? I suspect that a lot of so-called trivia in WP articles would be overlooked if it was labelled "additional information" or similar. Lee M (talk) 11:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Not really. I've seen some of those trivia sections under another label, and also axed them. Most experienced editors are not dumb and can recognize trivia sections trying to hide under other labels. They get tagged and deleted too. Who defines? Generally easy to tell, and when not, MOS, WP:N, WP:V, and sometimes third party views are employed.

Being an observation that "anybody could make" is still original research unless it comes from a WP:Reliable Source (which does not include fan sites). It is not a common fact. AnmaFinotera (talk) 17:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Trivia or not, now that the screen cap of the opening title has been posted the wolf's head shape is pretty obvious. Lee M (talk) 04:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Um, maybe to you but I don't see any shape of a wolf's head anywhere in that image. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I did say it was subtle (well, OK, as opposed to obvious!)... if you look at the reflections of the skyline in the puddle, most of them appear (to me, at least) to delineate the top of a wolf's neck and head in negative space, looking to the left. There are additional objects at the end of the opening titles like feathers and reflected clouds, that reinforce the image. Now you could say I'm just seeing things, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't intentional, especially since the series is about wolves that can disguise themselves. Lee M (talk) 04:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe. I don't see it myself, though, and neither of us is considered a reliable source :P So unless a reliable source makes the same observation, it doesn't need to be included. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Obviously AnmaFinotera is not looking hard enough. I had a look at a DVD still (a few frames before the "Wolf's rain" text appears) and the clouds reflected in the puddle do have a dog-like resemblence. If it was intentional, it is nicely done. However, it is still some pretty pointless trivia and I can't find a reliable source anyway, therefore it's not really encyclopedic. Astronaut (talk) 06:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There's never a reliable source around when you need one. If someone involved with the show had confirmed this in an interview or article, it might be possible to compare it to the Rorschach inkblot test, M. C. Escher, optical illusions and the like.... Lee M (talk) 04:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Clean up

Wow...this article is in some serious need of attention. I'll be doing some major clean up over the next few days to get it inline with the main and the anime/manga manuals of style, clean up OR, etc. If I make a change you disagree with, please bring it here rather than reverting to discuss. I've started by cleaning up the odd formatting and removing the staff list (important folks covered by infobox and music section). I'll also be giving some much needed attention to the List of episodes article as well. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I've merged in the two soundtrack articles, as they were little more than stubs and are barely edited with little likely hood of being expanded. If they can be fleshed out enough to be more than a stub and stand alone, I'd have no prejuidice about splitting them back out. AnmaFinotera (talk) 08:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)