Talk:Wat Misaka

Editorial in "External links"

This edit added a link to an editorial from a college newspaper. It is not reliable per WP:RSOPINION, as editorials are not always factual. Since the author is not a subject matter expert per WP:USERG, the opinion should never be used in the article even if was attributed. Moreover, the fact that Misaka is the first non-white in the NBA is already reliably sourced in the article. The link seems to violate WP:ELNO points 1 & 2. It should be removed.—Bagumba (talk) 05:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree. A number of recent edits seem a bit iffy to me. I don't think the NBA books were deliberately ignoring Misaka. It's quite likely that the writers simply weren't aware of him. Zagalejo^^^ 07:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this is probably the case regarding the NBA history books. In fact, I don't know of any mention of Misaka's short-lived career made in reference to the African American pioneers of the NBA prior to my handful of comments on it back in the old Usenet days (e.g., my entry at [1]). Due to the brevity of Misaka's stint with the Knicks, this was an understandably obscure fact and consequently one of negligible influence in the history of the league. But, whether due in part to my usenet postings or otherwise, Misaka's brief career with the Knicks is certainly more recognized today than it was prior to the mid 1990s. — Myasuda (talk) 16:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Hey, that post is cool to see. :) I remember seeing Misaka's name in an NBA encyclopedia myself, and wondering about his name. It may be the case that the drafting of Wang Zhizhi in 1999 also prompted research into earlier Asian players. Zagalejo^^^ 19:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Anyhow, there are some pre-2000 newspaper articles that recognize Misaka as a pioneer. They don't explicitly call him the "first non-white player", or anything along those lines, but some at least people understood his place in history. A 1987 Newsday article notes, "Misaka was a standout not only for his size but his race. He was a Japanese-American playing basketball for an American college in the midst of World War II." (Joe Gergen. "A Short Course on the NBA". Newsday. June 24, 1987. pg. 151.). A 1999 Salt Lake Tribune article describes him as "the first and only Asian to be picked in the first round of the NBA draft". ("Outstanding Athlete". Salt Lake Tribune. December 8, 1999. pg. A20.) Zagalejo^^^ 08:02, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I am specifically referring to American writers and media outlets. I am the author J. Chang. In July 2000, I surveyed 20 books on NBA history, NYTIMEs, ESPN, NBA.com, they all knew about Misaka but there was absolutely no mention of his name prior to 2000. They always mentioned Earl Lloyd, Clifton and Cooper. I wrote to NBA.com, ESPN, NYTIMEs, the NBA office, New York Knicks marketing department and 8 of the 20 books which at the time listed Clifton, Lloyd or Cooper as integrating the NBA. I also enlisted the help of Professor Pei Te Lien and former (now deceased) U of Utah Coach Rick Majerus, they agreed to help me. I asked for help from NBA player Rex Walters (half Japanese American) twice or three times and he declined. Rick Majerus in fact helped me obtain the email of Walters from Roy Williams.

I verify that I saw 20 NBA history books and all previous reporting, news on NBA integration and that these stated Cooper, Lloyd or Clifton as the NBA's Jackie Robinson. If this had not been the case, why would I have written the article First Minority Basketball Player to Integrate Goes Unrecognized.(deleted) From there I can also give you a scan of the published original of the article which I wrote. Once I notified NBA.com and ESPN, they came out with their own stories on Wat as the Jackie Robinson and whatever such thing within 1 and 2 years.

Check the back issues of all the most prominent newspapers and sports media outlets and you will see that they never mention Misaka, though they knew about him. Now part of that is due to 1. few Asians in the NBA, 2. historical omission of Asian American achievements, this runs very very deep in American society, 3. Sports readership then was seen as black and white and appealing to those two demographics. 4. Only until the Jeremy LIn phenomenon came out did ESPN and others realize that they were comnpletely ignoring a huge marketing segment who watched American sports, that is, Asians internationally and Asian Americans. In 2000, Asians were 2 percent of the Am. populaiton, now they are 4 percent. that is significant growth and a significant enough segment that requires media attention and marketing. ^^^ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.140.101.46 (talk) 08:24, 6 January 2013 (UTC) Changejo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.140.101.40 (talk) 08:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the Gergen article and the U of Utah articles on Misaka, they NEVER mention that "Misaka was the first minority in the NBA." This is a huge difference. Notice that Misaka was not invited by the NBA nor Knicks nor any US President until after 2000 (he was invited by Obama to the White HOuse in 2009 or 2010 and specifically recognized as the NBA's First Minority and as a Pioneer in Multiculturalism). This may not be a big deal for you, but it means alot to the Asian American community. Who gets picked last in all the playgrounds across America in basketball--Answer--Asian Americans kids. This change of Misaka as the NBA's First Minority Player makes him an American hero not just Japanese Am community or Asian American community. That my friends is of historical significance and why Misaka was invited to the White House, invited by the NBA and Knicks only after a lapse of 53 years or more during which he was completely ignored. Notice that all of the major articles, interviews (BBC, NPR, the documentary, everyone) came after 2000 or so when there was a campaign which requested that everyone rectify their omissons.

Now all of these writers especially of the major media outlets have collective amnesia to the past and you (Wiki discussion) are trying to make it go away as well. This fact gives Asian Americans their place in history, their piece of American history as Americans. And by the way, I interviewed Misaka for 3 hours in 2000. I also wrote the sports column for AsianWeek back when there was a budget. You can type my name in and type in ASianWeek, Brian Kim, Linda Sayavongchanh, and Sedrick Chin and you will see sports articles. I would like to consider myself in regards specifically to Wat Misaka and the NBA, a 'subject matter specialist' as Bagumba claimed I was not. I have also played competitive basketball in h.s. even at the small college level for a brief time. ^^^ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.140.108.111 (talk) 08:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Finally please remember all of this happened because we were also an apartheid state until some years after the passing of the Civil Rights Acts. And if you were Chinese/Asian during the Civil Rights Mov't, you would be told that you could not use Black nor white fountains as one of my relatives related to me from her experience in Dallas in the 1960's. 'You not Black' and 'You not white' she was told. Playgrounds, fountains, toilets, barbershops, all segregated. That is the definition of apartheid.^^^ ^^^

http://www.asianweek.com/2003_01_17/sports_self.html http://www.asianweek.com/2003/03/14/a-reggaeboy-in-the-making-sedrick-chin-hopes-to-heal-and-play/ http://www.asianweek.com/2002_12_13/sports_coaches.html

I believe that I can qualify as a 'subject matter specialist' having been a sports journalist for AsianWeek. All the above appeared in print as well as internet. I interviewed Wat Misaka for 3 hours in year 2000 as well.^^^ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.140.108.102 (talk) 11:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

There's a lot to reply to here, but first, I would recommend that you set up an account, so that we have a central place to leave messages for you. You don't have to provide any information to set up an account; you just have to come up with a screename and a password.

Next, I want to clarify that I do admire what Misaka went through, and I appreciate your efforts to drum up attention for him. My concern is mainly with your choice of wording, which I feel is a bit too strident for the circumstances. You make reference to the "collective marginalization of Asian Americans in sports history", but you have to remember that Misaka only played three NBA games, so he was a much more obscure figure than Lloyd, Cooper, or Clifton, who each played at least 400 games. You say that the books "never mention Misaka, though they knew about him". I still contend that many writers simply didn't know about him, not because of racism, but because he really didn't play long enough for enough people to take notice. I'm 99% sure that none of the people writing the NBA history books had personal knowledge of watching Misaka play. Yes, it's a shame that he was forgotten, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that there was something deliberate about that.

You dismiss the Gergen article by saying that it doesn't specifically describe Misaka as the "first minority". That's true... but the term "first minority" opens up a whole bag of worms. Would Jews count? There were a good number of Jews in the early NBA. Heck, even Catholics could be considered minorities. Even if we use the phrase "first non-white", we really have to admit that Misaka was the first non-white player that we know of to this point. Maybe an early NBA player was part Native American, or part Hispanic, and that fact has been lost to history. (Misaka has the benefit of a name that would catch attention, but many Native Americans have boring WASPy-sounding names, so they could easily slip through the cracks.) Making a claim like "first non-white" is risky. Zagalejo^^^ 19:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way, the Asian Week article that is being linked was an AP article, which was published in lots of periodicals around the same time. (See, for example, this, from the LA Times.) Was there a different Asian Week article you had in mind? Above, you mention a deleted article titled "First Minority Basketball Player to Integrate Goes Unrecognized". When and where was that published? I'm a bit confused. Zagalejo^^^ 19:59, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

The NYT article calls Misaka the first nonwhite. As with any "fact", it is subject to any future revelations.—Bagumba (talk) 20:39, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

This NYT article, not the one in the article.—Bagumba (talk) 20:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Jon: I would also encourage you to create an account. Thanks for disclosing your relationship to the subject. Your status of an expert aside, it seems the Daily Bruin editorial might have been before you wrote professionally? While the content of the editorial may be factual, it needs to be verifiable. Perhaps the sources used by the editorial can be cited instead. I commend your effort to provide more information on Misaka, but Wikipedia requires reliable sources before righting great wrongs in history. Original research should be avoided, as well as undue weight. Also see Race and ethnicity in the NBA, where Misaka is mentioned as a pioneer, as evidence that WP does not have an agenda to "make it go away".—Bagumba (talk) 20:39, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

The Daily Bruin article, just go to the article itself, though after 10 years it was removed from the Daily Bruin archives. It was published on July 24, 2000, it is in the article, right under the title. I can send you an original of the print article, would you like that my email is [removed] I will remove the email after 24 hours or so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.140.108.95 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe you were replying to Zagalejo's 19:59, 6 January post? In the future, you can use colons to indent the text to make your responses to threads more readable. Please also consider my above 20:39, 6 January request to cite other reliable sources in lieu of relying on your editorial. Finally, your editorial was not removed by the Daily Bruin, it was moved to http://dailybruin.com/2000/07/23/first-minority-basketball-play/ Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 21:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Since Bagumba seems to have found the article, I removed your email for you. Thanks, anyways. Zagalejo^^^ 03:35, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I am going to remove the text supported by the editorial for now. Feel free to rewrite if reliable sources are identified, but be careful of coatracks, such as the discussion at #Anti-miscegenation laws.—Bagumba (talk) 16:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Anti-miscegenation laws

Unless a reliable source mentions Misaka and these laws together, or he was involved in a mixed-race relationship, it seems like his life is being used as a coatrack for racial issues. I am removing the mention for now.—Bagumba (talk) 16:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)