Talk:Vasyl Ivanchuk

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Title[edit]

I see that NighOnEarth moved the article a year ago from the most commonly known name Vassily Ivanchuk to the current name. Such move was a poor idea even if only because it was not proposed first.

There is a convinsing evidence, that Vassily Ivanchuk is the most commonly used name in English. As per WP:NC(UE): "If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article"

I did some research to determine the most commonly used English name and here are the results.

media

I made a search of the usage restricted to the Major English language papers in the last 24 months using the Lexis Nexis. These are the results for several variants:

Google

Google results restricted to the English sites:

The article needs moved to the latter title. --Irpen 02:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retirement?[edit]

I think 'announced his retirement' is a little strong. Go read the interview, it isn't so clear that he's retiring and he explicitly says he'll work out existing commitments. JordanHenderson (talk) 12:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I get the impression that he was interviewed immediately after he lost and when he was in bad mood. I suggest removing the retirement from the article until we see firmer evidence. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Given recent progress, the retirement talk is better suited under "eccentric character" than in the header. 173.34.84.16 (talk) 00:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Title, introductory paragraph[edit]

• Changed name to match his official FIDE records. (I agree with discussion below; change back if you must) • Deleted statement in opening paragraph about not winning world championship (a “non-fact”), especially since it is addressed later as well. • Added info about #1 rank on live ratings list. • Added info about return to top-10 list. • Added Gibraltar 2011 and Cap d'Agde 2010 to the tournament victory list. • Formatted tournament victory list for consistency. • Other minor syntax edits. Bbentrup (talk) 21:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC) • I rewrote several sentences for stylistic reasons, no substantive changes. More work needed in this area. Bbentrup (talk) 14:31, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some ambitious soul should incorporate this lengthy, wonderful interview (http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/a-big-interview-with-vassily-ivanchuk/) into the various sections of the page, perhaps writing new ones as well. Bbentrup (talk) 20:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

POV?[edit]

This article seems unduly negative. The article concentrates on his eccentric behavior more than on his very numerous victories. This is one of the great players of our time and the article doesn't do him justice. Does the "doping controversy really warrant that much space? To me, the article is borderline POV. BashBrannigan (talk) 06:05, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Childhood[edit]

Is nothing known of his childhood and home life? Under the heading "Early Years," we learn nothing. Twenty is not such an early year. --Abenr (talk) 02:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 April 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. We go by what the sources say, and FIDE has now been updated. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vassily Ivanchuk → Vasyl Ivanchuk – I am chess GM Vasyl Ivanchuk want You to call my name as VASYL because it is my official NAME in PASSPORT Ivanchukvasyl (talk) 12:57, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You will need to provide independant published sources that spell his name that way IdreamofJeanie (talk) 13:00, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. Subject is clearly identified in the lead sentence as Ukrainian, not Russian and, although Ukrainian names were transliterated in their Russian forms during the Soviet era, Ukraine has been an independent country for three decades and its Ukrainian-speaking citizens, including Grandmaster Vasyl Ivanchuk, use Ukrainian transliteration of their names into English. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:34, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I searched google-news. For "Vasyl Ivanchuk" there are a total of 8 hits. for "Vassily Ivanchuk" there are 248 hits. The "Vassily" hits are as recent as the few "Vasyl" hits, and are coming from higher quality publications such as The Telegraph[1], The Guardian[2], BBC[3], and New York Times[4]. The 8 "Vasyl" hits are from 2 Ukrainian sources, 2 non-English sources, and 4 from Chessbase news (which has many more recent "Vassily" hits, such as: [5][6][7][8]). "Vassily" far outnumbers "Vasyl" also when filtered to hits in the past year: 142 to 3, so this is the current 2020 usage.--Bob not snob (talk) 10:39, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Tepid support. Given that Ivanchuk is making the request and that this was updated in FIDE as well. The page should contain Vassily Ivanchuk in the lead as this is very common, even most common, but the page can move.--Bob not snob (talk) 06:56, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That will certainly happen; it’s standard practice.P-K3 (talk) 12:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME – majority of sources use Vassily. P-K3 (talk) 10:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC) Changing to support.-- P-K3 (talk) 15:04, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question for Ivanchukvasyl: is your passport printed in Latin characters as well as Cyrillic? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. All English language sources for the article use "Vassily", and this is the spelling that has been common in writing in the Enlgish language for over 30 years. The Ukrainian Chess Federation website has a small English-language section which also spells his name "Vassily": http://ukrchess.org.ua/eng/news_e.html. FIDE records use "Vassily" (FIDE Chess Profile) Ivanchuk changed FIDE federations from USR to UKR in July 1990 and was free to have the spelling of his first name changed in FIDE records anytime in the last 29 years if he chose, but he hasn't. If the real Ivanchuk isn't bothered enough to have FIDE change its records, I doubt he would waste time with that on Wikipedia. Since the person claiming to be Vasyl Ivanchuk is probably a liar, I place no extra weight on that claim. All the same, anyone can request a move discussion and it should be decided on its merits. That returns us to common name: "Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." Even if the passport claim is true, it is probably not relevant to the title of his article. If Ivanchuk has FIDE change its records first, there would be a more compelling argument for the rename. Quale (talk) 02:49, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just to say I think it was inappropriate to call the poster a liar. He could very well be the real Ivanchuk, who is known not to be fluent in English. I remember an old website Ivanchuk used to run where he spelled his name "Vasyl", so it most probably is his preferred spelling in the Latin alphabet. That said "Vassily" is so firmly established in English language chess writing that it's unlikely to be changed. Maybe if FIDE used the "Vasyl" spelling the reliable sources will follow. Wikipedia is a follower, not a leader, we just copy the reliable sources. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 07:04, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve asked at WP:AN what the correct procedure is here - it may be that the account needs to be blocked until Ivsnchuk can send proof that he is the operator of the account. P-K3 (talk) 12:22, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Pawnkingthree, the operator of the account should send an email to [email protected] if they are blocked so they can prove their identity according to WP:REALNAME. I reported the account to WP:UAA a few days ago and ToBeFree said they will keep an eye out on the account. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:47, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, thanks for the ping. I would probably have blocked them, but I was merely responding to an already-declined request. The request had been declined because there was no reason to believe that the user is an impersonator. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Correction: The request had not been strictly declined; details can be found at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Requested_move_by_article_subject? and Special:PermanentLink/951789227 (username noticeboard). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:30, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME – majority of sources use Vassily. Brittle heaven (talk) 13:53, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As Roman Spinner said, my name is Vasyl in Ukrainian, Vassily is in Russian. Justlettersandnumbers - my Ukrainian passpost is cyrillic and my name is spelled Василь in Ukrainian as I am a citizen of Ukraine. My international passport is in Latin and my name there is spelled Vasyl. I have sent an email to [email protected] to verify my identity and have also written to FIDE with a request to change the spelling of my name. Quale - on the same website of the Ukraininan Chess Federation, there is rating on the right side of the page. https://imgur.com/a/C5evqgS The spelling on the Ukrainian version of the website is Іванчук Василь (Ivanchuk Vasyl, not Vassily). The ukrainian wikipedia page says the same - https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%86%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%87%D1%83%D0%BA_%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C_%D0%9C%D0%B8%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivanchukvasyl (talk • contribs) 15:34, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ivanchukvasyl, I think you should write FIDE and to media covering chess. Wikipedia follows what other sources say, it does not lead.--Bob not snob (talk) 05:52, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - While I understand that WP:COMMONNAME exists, the subject of the article is Ukrainian, not Russian, and thus the article should be located at the transliteration of the Ukrainian name. Also, if his international passport does indeed use "Vasyl", that's his name. Reaper Eternal (talk) 15:57, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FIDE has already changed my name to Vasyl https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14100010. Ivanchukvasyl (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The user's identity has been verified. --MrClog (talk) 14:17, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then support per the wishes of the subject and the FIDE listing. WP:COMMONNAME is valuable in many cases where there's some uncertainty or disagreement over which name should be used for a article, but it's absurd to invoke it to override our fundamental obligation to get things right. That obligation is particularly strong in the case of a WP:BLP article. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:50, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Justlettersandnumbers, now that Ivanchuk's identitiy has been confirmed. COMMONNAME does not override BLP, it is clear that the subject, who is Ukrainian, wishes to have a UKrainian transliteration rather than a Russian one, and per WP:NAMECHANGES, now that FIDE has officially made the change, other reliable sources will follow suit.-- P-K3 (talk) 15:04, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support according to WP:UKRAINIANNAMES. The subject is Ukrainian so we should be following Ukrainian naming conventions. Since there are multiple reliable sources that his name is Vassily, we could format the lead sentence as:
Vasyl Mykhaylovych Ivanchuk (Ukrainian: Василь Михайлович Іванчук; also spelled Vassily; born March 18, 1969) is a Ukrainian chess player.
I am basing this sentence off Vasyl Lomachenko (assuming this RM goes through). -- LuK3 (Talk) 15:33, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the meantime. I like Vasyl but until FIDE lists him under that name, wikipedia should follow the mainstream sources. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 01:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
MaxBrowne2, It looks like FIDE did change his name, see his FIDE profile. -- LuK3 (Talk) 02:18, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK. From my own experience getting your name changed on FIDE's website is a simple matter of emailing them (I requested that they include my middle name for disambiguation purposes a while ago). So tentatively support. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - his FIDE listing has changed. In addition, he's Ukrainian and therefore we should be using the proper transliteration. --MrClog (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Justlettersandnumbers. Vassily has been the common name in English, but FIDE has now modified its listing. Hrodvarsson (talk) 23:44, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2008 Olympic incident[edit]

I know it seemed like a big deal at a time but it seems a bit WP:UNDUE now. At least downgrade the emphasis a little. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 12:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I renamed the "Controversy" section as "2008 Olympiad incident", but I still think giving it a whole section of its own is undue. It would be better to incorporate this material under "Assessment and personality" for example, or simply "career". MaxBrowne2 (talk) 04:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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