Talk:Until the End (Kittie album)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Until the End (Kittie album)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Voorts (talk · contribs). Review to come. 16:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I've done a complete copy edit of the article, including condensing and shortening quotes, style edits for concision, and fixing grammar/style. If you disagree I have a few comments for now. Spot check etc. to come later.

• The article uses regular references and {{sfn}}. Although not required for GA, I recommend picking a consistent citation style.
• Generally, use {{nbsp}} instead of  .
• The lyrics section is mostly the band's explanation of the lyrics; do any of the reviews you've cited analyze the lyrics. If so, they need to be summarized here per GACR 4 (NPOV, particularly WP:BALASP).
• Please clarify the following by adding more context: In The Metal Exiles, Morgan said that "Career Suicide" "is something that [has] already happened ... but it's funny".
• I did some condensing to make sentences more concise, but there are still some long sentences. I would recommend going through again and trying to prune a bit, since this is a long-ish article for a critically mediocre album. In particular, I think the quotes from the band members should either be removed or briefly summarized per MOS:QUOTE. For example, I recommend deleting the following: "We're in this until the end", Morgan told Hit Parader in 2004: "There's no turning back. We're lifers. We've been doing this for as long as I can remember, and hopefully we'll be doing it for a long, long time to come." Likewise, this can be summarized: "Pussy Sugar" is about "seeing someone you care about go through a dark, unfortunate time, and standing back and seeing that there's absolutely nothing you can do".

Great work. More to come soon. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

this is why you're a godly copyeditor f4wgehgerg2rth24r

Okay, but seriously, you are correct on the quote stuff. I may as well remove "metal exiles" are i can't rlly specify it more than the quote? plus the reviews dont really help with understanding the lyrics (and NME's is off the mark). Anyway I'll get to copyediting Chchcheckit (talk) 18:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Excellent. I'll hold off on doing a spot check until you're done trimming. One note is that I'm not sure that Prophecy21.com and BallBuster Music are reliable sources. They're both apparently interviews with the band, but there's no editorial standards for either site. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

copyediting done, removed prophecy21 since that was 1 person. ballbuster music does have a team of people so i'd assume theres editorial stuff?? anyway go on. Chchcheckit (talk) 18:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Some more comments:

• Morgan said that the band chose to record at Long View Farm because of its isolated nature and because it offered "the full package; you sleep here, you eat here, [so] you [can] focus on your task". Is this needed. Seems like a bit of a trivial detail.
• Morgan said that Thompson's approach to recording was "more to focus on the song itself ... He wanted to focus on each song individually and get it right before we move onto the next one. So each song kind of has its own sound and its own personality." Summarize this quote.
• Summarize these quotes in the Lyrics section:
  • "Pussy Sugar" is about "seeing someone you care about go through a dark, unfortunate time, and standing back and seeing that there's absolutely nothing you can do".
  • Morgan stated that "In Dreams" is about "me being crazy, and thinking that I'm going crazy ... I'm not sure if it's because of the stress of everything that's happened over the years, so it's me wondering if I really am crazy".
  • "Daughters Down" is about "being held down, like you're being held underwater", and "[p]eople being vindictive, and always having someone who doesn't get you", according to Mercedes Lander. Morgan said that the song's title "refers to holding the people down that should be treated like daughters", with its chorus "describing the people that should be caring".
• Reiterating this comment from above: The lyrics section is mostly the band's explanation of the lyrics; do any of the reviews you've cited analyze the lyrics. If so, they need to be summarized here per GACR 4 (NPOV, particularly WP:BALASP).

Chchcheckit: Please ping me when you're done. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey, ty:

1. The "focus on your task" thing was because Kittie did not leave Long View Farm whatsoever during recording ("you sleep here, you eat here"); it's not intended to be trivial.

2. the reviews do not have analysis on lyrics, if you check through all the listed ones they seem to focus on its music, structure and vocals without addressing lyrics. which is irritating. ive tried cutting the lyrics down and merged music and lyrics as now there is too little content to separate the two. i cut one of the lines from "daughters down", i don't know how to deal with "in dreams" because its really unclear to me. help with that last one?? Chchcheckit (talk) 19:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

additional copyediting was performend nonetheless Chchcheckit (talk) 19:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Morgan said that the title of "Daughters Down" "refers to holding the people down that should be treated like daughters", with its chorus "describing the people that should be caring". I don't understand what this means. What does it mean to be "treated like daughters" and who are "the people that should be caring", and what should they be caring about? voorts (talk/contributions) 19:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

you've said most of it better than me, thanks.

yk what fuck it, "daughters down" is gone because i cannot translate the shade offered in these comments into anything but verbatim. I just don't understand what it means, like it mentions vindicative people sure but like its still unspecified, the comments are shade. Chchcheckit (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Are there any tour photographs that can be included in the article? Spot check coming soon. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

nothing on commons. go. Chchcheckit (talk) 20:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Spot check

Source-integrity spot check of refs in this version.

• 1a: Does not support the first sentence of that paragraph because it mistakenly says October. Adding a cite for the first sentence would fix the problem.
• 1b and 2: ok
• 5: ok
• 7a/8a: 8a appears to support the content; can you provide a quote from 7a? I don't have access to that source.
• 10/11/12: 10 supports that they had written "Career Suicide", "Loveless", and "Until the End". 11 states there are two untitled tracks. Please share a quotation here from 12 that supports that they had written "Look So Pretty" and "Burning Bridges".
• 16c/18: 18 supports the settlement and that they're recording the album, but not that this was the first time that they recorded an album outside of their hometown. Please share a quotation here from 16c that supports that claim.
• 21b/26a/27: I'm not seeing any of those sources supporting the claim that they used their regular tour instruments because they wanted to capture that sound, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
• 13c/33: ok
• 15d/3ab: Neither source calls the album "more musically complex", and this should not be stated in wikivoice, particularly since it contradicts the critical response section, which notes that many critics thought this album was quite meh. The latter half of that sentence also should not be stated in wikivoice.
• 15e: ok
• 8c/12b: 8c establishes that the lyrics reflected uncertainty, but does not contain the quoted language. Please provide a quote from 12b containing that language.
• 46: ok
• 8c/17b: 8c does not support the content in that sentence and can be removed. Please confirm that 17b supports the claim made in the body.
• 23: ok for the facts, but the "By contrast" appears to be OR, since the source isn't actually drawing a contrast between the album cover and its title.
• 13d/47a: ok
• 51b: Is there a source from after the premiere? Technically, this is a press release issued in advance of the premiere, so it doesn't establish that it actually was debuted on the date specified.
• 59a and 59b: ok
• 43c: ok
• 62: ok
• 57a and 57b: Please provide quotations from the source supporting the body text.
• 63: ok
• 71/72/73: 72 does not support the claim made in the body, and 71/73 are enough.
• 75a/76a: ok

While not required for GA, I recommend:

• Change Gleason from {{sfn}} to a regular ref and link directly to the Tulsa World page with an archived version: https://tulsaworld.com/archive/sounds-like-ours-kittie-scratches-way-back-from-label-woes/article_a137ddc4-3eb8-5bc1-bfad-c8253e8c6fda.html
• Gloss and Anon: These can be changed from {{sfn}} to regular refs since they're each only citing one page of the sources. There's also no need to have anon as the author parameter.

Unrelated to the spot check, but I think the touring and aftermath section can be significantly cut down:

• "[S]he wanted to know where her money was and all of this stuff and it was like, 'Well, sorry, there is none'", Morgan said. This is an unnecessary quote and should be deleted. It doesn't add anything more to what's already in the text.
• I'm not sure that most of the third paragraph adds very much; it's already established that Marx and Arroyo left the band in the previous paragraph, as is the lack of tour support. The only thing I'd retain is about the split with their label, since the split with Arroyo and Marx is previously discussed and it's not important to know that the split was announced in March in the context of an article on the ablum.

@Chchcheckit: Spot check and some more comments. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

ok, getting to it. stand by

the third paragraph worked when the line about "morgan agreeing with arroyo to announce on april 1" was there, but chronology is different now. hence. also the marx quote was intended to clarify why she was upset?

thanks Chchcheckit (talk) 22:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

also this is going to suck but i don't have access to gargano 2004 anymore. i left the magazine behind. Chchcheckit (talk) 22:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Voorts, this is going to take way too long for me to fix. this article is fucked from the way your spotchecks put it, and I don't even have the rock hard subscription or gargano 2004 for you. I'd suggest you flag this as "on hold" or just nullifying this ga because the more I look at it the worse it gets.

also the sfn-ing was for the bibliography not just for fun, to differentiate between text and whatnot. idk. Chchcheckit (talk) 22:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I've placed this on hold. If you decide at the end of the week that you want to withdraw the nomination, let me know. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

thanks. Also don't take my exasperated tone the wrong way; as much as i feel destroyed by this, i am glad you've given this such a thorough evaluation. Chchcheckit (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you feel destroyed by this! You have time and I recommend trying to approach this in chunks, rather than all at once. You should see if somebody at WP:RX can get you the relevant portions of Gargano and other articles you no longer have access to. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

No need to apologize, I set myself up for it as I tried too hard for too long and I got lost along the way in my desperation for "completedness". I thought I learnt my lesson from a previous series of unfortunate events, but I guess not.

Also: I didn't even know WPRX existed, jesus christ. Thank you. Chchcheckit (talk) 23:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I think this article is in pretty good shape and needs a bit more work. I hope we can get it to GA. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:11, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Chchcheckit: I just wanted to check in and see if you plan on continuing with this nomination. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

yeah, i am. Chchcheckit (talk) 23:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

How long do you think you will need to address the comments above? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Chchcheckit: if you do not start improving the article within the next two days, I will have to fail this review. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

acknowledged. Chchcheckit (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

self-note for what i can and can't fix

YOU CAN FIX:

• 1a: has been fixed
• 21b/26a/27: Rewriting will have to be done regaridng instruments, i may have misread.
• 15d/3ab: eliminate wikivoice and just state what things are, what it has.
• 51b: Is there a source from after the premiere? Technically, this is a press release issued in advance of the premiere, so it doesn't establish that it actually was debuted on the date specified.
• 57a and 57b: Please provide quotations from the source supporting the body text.
• 71/72/73: 72 does not support the claim made in the body, and 71/73 are enough.
• 23: ok for the facts, but the "By contrast" appears to be OR, since the source isn't actually drawing a contrast between the album cover and its title. (may have fixed this one already but)

YOU CAN'T FIX

• 7a/8a: 7A is metal edge.
• 10/11/12: Source 12 is Metal Edge, i remember look so pretty coming from that one
• 16c/18: Metal Edge for 16c; again ghhhh. :(((
• 12b was the "suffocation" quote, again from metal edge. From an earlier revision, i did include this quote: ""For a while there, we felt like we were at the end of our rope, and we really had no idea what was going to be happening to us", Morgan said. "We did go through a lot of that, and a lot of it is reflected in the mood and the music, and my lyrics."(Garagno 2004, p. 45) Again, this quote was adjusted from orig source, usefulness is questionable ghhh
• 17b: this missing metal edge source has become the bane of my existence.

Even if this doesn't get passed thanks to the missing source, i need to do this anyway. Chchcheckit (talk) 23:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Chchcheckit, at this point, I'm going to have to fail this since the spot check and other comments haven't been addressed and this has been open for two weeks. I think you've got a great start and you can get this up to GA quality soon. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 01:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That's fine, i knew it was going to happen anyway due to the missing sources. if-and when-I get a hold of the sources, i'll work on this again. thanks for all the help. Chchcheckit (talk) 02:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)