Talk:Trisha Paytas/Archive 2

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2021 and 23 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Knowacki1234.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Changing pronouns to 'he/him'

Google results, coming out video. AFAIK, it's defamatory to misgender people on Wikipedia, I would like to post here first because I need confirmation this won't start an edit war, and is voted upon accordingly. --Jezebelle 02:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Why would we change her pronouns when she stated she did not want to change her name or pronouns? --Kbabej (talk) 02:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

What about adding her to the "Transgender and transsexual men" category? 70.49.223.111 (talk) 07:00, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

No one has responded to this, but I don't see why she shouldn't given wikpedia's policies on gender identity and self-identification. 70.49.223.111 (talk) 07:43, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Can't you just you the persons name, cause this they,their business is uninteligble?

Sorry, but she's not trans and she's not nonbinary. Anyone who has followed along with the drama over the years will tell you it's just for attention and her phase won't last long. If we could please stop accepting a person who has made Nazi jokes and done black face, as well as mock people with mental illnesses, that would be greatly appreciated. So could someone please change her pronouns back? 96.230.114.122 (talk)

Didn't she say she goes by she/her? She said this on the most recent h3 podcast, that she's nonbinary but still feels feminine and uses both pronouns depending on how she's feeling that day. Changing all pronouns to they/them seems like it's being done to push a certain agenda...

Just a comment here but I had to do a bunch of random research to determine what is what here because of the pronouns used- it called a lot into question for me because I don’t follow social media that closely but I use YouTube a lot. This is the first time I have ever had to disregard Wikipedia to get the accurate information. There has to be a more clear way to write this. NuttMerg (talk) 00:59, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Various "announcements" on youtube

Lots of people say lots of things about themselves. This does not mean all of these things warrant inclusion on Wikipedia and nor does it mean that information meets the criteria for verifiability. Primary Sources such as Youtube videos need to be taken as a primary source. I person smoking a cigarette can say they are not a smoker it does though not mean they aren't a smoker. In the same way, Paytas can call her self Gey, Bisexual or anything else it does not mean that this should therefore automatically be included. Paytas cal additional claim all the mental health conditions she wants it does not mean that this warrants inclusion She could call herself a tree but the leed section is not going to be changed to reflect this it is it not going to be changed to say "Trisha Paytas is an American tree, media personality, YouTuber, model, actress and singer,......." This information must meet the standard required for inclusion and the reality is liking something or saying something doesn't mean it is first of all factually accurate or second of all worthy of inclusion. As a result, the offending sections have been removed until the issues with them are sorted out. Sparkle1 (talk) 21:54, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

In this source it shows a previous claim by Paytas that she identified as a "Chicken Nugget". Paytas can make all the claims in the world but the reliability of Paytas as a source is highly questionable and should be taken with a pinch of salt. More than Paytas' word is need for claims to be included as she is not a reliable source. Sparkle1 (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

So what then? What source can be used to verify her own identity? Do you realise just how silly that it? You are asking for a source that can PROVE she identifies as transgender. the ONLY person who can say that is herself because it is her SELF identity, not anyone else's. Likewise, no one else knows about hewr mental health struggles and she does not need to show a diagnosis to prove anything. She has trolled in the past but we can verify that she is indeed, not a chicken nugget, like you said. We CAN'T verify how she feels inside in regards to her gender identity or mental health, so please, stop removing this information. Christhewalrus (talk) 23:45, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

You hit the nail on the head she is so unreliable the information cannot be saved to be included. She can claim whatever identity she likes or claims whatever mental health issue she likes, that does not mean it is reliable. If is a self-claim and that is not reliable for the purposes of Wikipedia Secondary reliable sources are needed. It seems from the secondary sources Paytas jumps from one thing to another. Either everything including the chicken nugget and non-human identification, and the questioning of the verification of the Wedding which is claimed. Only including selective issues violates WP:NPOV as it an opinion as to what and what is not included. Its all or nothing in the inclusion of all of Paytas' claims. That is the only way to get over the NPOV issues and the issues of reliability. Sparkle1 (talk) 01:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

As per this discussion above I am now going to remove the information from this article. If the information is believed to be warranting inclusion please discuss here before re-adding. This information fails on Notability and fails on verifiability. Wikipiedia is also not a repository or commentary for personal remarks made on YT about an individuals personal life, health, Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, etc. Sparkle1 (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I have really, really big problems with self-sourcing in BLPs, but we typically allow, and should allow, primary sources for basic information, such as DOB and, why not, gender. Sparkle1, this is hardly "medical" information, and while Wikipedia should not be a repository for all kinds of self-sourced trivialities (your dog's name, your favorite soccer team), but this is not trivial. Drmies (talk) 15:35, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

The main issue here is and this is a case where an exception to the general rule is required is the information which Paytas produces particularly on youtube is not verifiable. Paytas has claimed to be "non-human" a "Chicken Nugget" a "Transexual male" a "gay man", she has also made claim "Sean Van Der Wilt Is Gay," and to have got "Married". None of these claims has any sources except Paytas her self. Paytas has also claimed she "does it for the clicks", this particular goes to diminishing the reliability of using Paytas as a source for even the most basic information. While I would generally agree on basic information being allowed as described above, Paytas reduces the scope dramatically by her actions. All I can see that should be included in this context is her name and her religion. Not much else can pass as Patyas has made so many different claims and has openly stated that she "trolls"

Sources: 1, 2

The reason her name and religion should be taken as read are these are things which are consistent. She is consistent with her religion, this is seen in her music and her actions. To claim otherwise would require the burden to be on claiming otherwise. The same is with her name. For everything else mentioned above due to Paytas' actions, the burden has shifted to requiring the burden to be on proving these claims and verifying these claims, where normally it would be the other way round.

Take Kevin Spacey on coming out as gay. The context surrounding him coming out was very controversial, but there were no prior actions by Spacey to give enough weight to the claims by Spacey as being anything other than accurate. Now compare to Paytas' where there is a wealth of evidence (not proof might I add) to lead to the conclusion that Paytas is not the most reliable or weighty source in similar matters when it comes to Paytas. Sparkle1 (talk) 16:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Sparkle1, your job, our job, is not to judge whether something someone said is consistent with their life. And statements like "this is seen in her music and actions", that's original research--in other words, just as unproven as some of the claims she takes issue with. If she says about someone else "they're gay", that means nothing at all if it's self-sourced. If she says "I'm gay", that's an entirely different matter. Christhewalrus, you restored an enormous amount of really non-essential material sourced to tweets and YouTube: that is never OK. For the transgender thing, you can make a reasonable argument, and it's the kind of thing that seems to matter professionally etc. That she's RC, not so much. If you want to restore the dissociative or substance abuse material in as much as it is based on secondary sources, I suppose that's fine, but these articles rely way too much on primary sourcing. At some point that's too much. Drmies (talk) 17:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

DrmiesI take your point but I was trying to explain why Paytas as a primary source for basic information is not reliable when others are reliable for similar information. No OR was intended to be inserted into this article. Thank you for making that clear. The issue is really how reliable as a primary source is Paytas and her actions do go to her reliability. Secondary sources are though as you pointed out far better for this and I think that without Secondary Sources very little of the personal information other than the relationship with Jason Nash. This means it should all go as you had previously done but I would go further and also remove the Gender and Sexuality sections for the same reasons. I also accept that from your reasoning the religion portions need to be looked at with a deeper eye. Sparkle1 (talk) 18:49, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

There is a mixture of primary and secondary sources throughout the article. I don't see why that's an issue. Obviously, any secondary source talking about her sexuality is going to be based off of her videos, which are the primary source, because that's what all secondary sources do. It is something that is important for the section and having a mixture of primary and secondary is ok especially because it covers things (such as sexuality) that are really only veriably through a primary source. Unless you ARE Trisha Paytas, you can't know her sexuality, gender identity, mental health struggles, etc. so for things like that, primary sources make the most sense, and when possible, secondary sources can be used, but those secondary sources quote her videos (the primary sources) for that exact reason. Christhewalrus (talk) 18:00, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Christhewalrus you are making the point that the information from Paytas is unverifiable by reliable secondary sources and therefore cannot be inserted on this article as it falls fouls of the standards required for BLPs on Wikipedia. Sparkle1 (talk) 18:49, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

+1 to everything Sparkle1 has said, In short Ms Paytas is known for saying she has THIS and THAT when in fact she doesn't ..... None of the bs she's claiming to have should be included in the lede or in fact in the article just like sources reporting on it shouldn't be included (because that just proves they're gullible and will report on anything even if not true),

Next week she really will be claiming she's a tree and sadly I'm not joking. –Davey2010^Talk 19:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for adding your personal bias and prejudice to this conversation :D Christhewalrus (talk) 19:08, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

You're very welcome :D. –Davey2010^Talk 19:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Christ, if you people insist on keeping stuff entirely out of the article, I'm also going to remove the categories of her being LGBT. You can't claim the person is in the LGBT community on her page while also removing any and all sources and information that state she's in it. To anyone: don't re-add these categories until you're willing to provide some information on it. Prinsgezinde (talk) 00:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Given the recent information that has come out about Ms. Paytas being nonbinary, I think it would only be right to add that to the article. Although I do understand that Ms. Paytas is not necessarily a reliable source, and stated in her original video about her transgender identity that she was not comfortable with nonbinary pronouns at that time, confusion is often intrinsic to the process of coming out as LGBT+. Ms. Paytas has stated in numerous TikToks, as well as on the Frenemies podcast, that she is nonbinary. In her interview with Vulture in March 2021 it was also reported that she identifies as nonbinary. I would say that the Vulture article acts as a secondary source which corroborates Ms. Paytas' claims about her identity. :) Emysavage (talk) 24 March 2021

Since no one responded and I can now edit, I added the information about her gender identity, including multiple primary and secondary sources. Emysavage (talk) 15:59, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Controversies

Trisha Paytas has been known for her controversies in the past including mocking those with dissociative identity disorder, issuing unlawful copyright strikes, racism, etc. I suggest an entire controversies section be added to this page. Jeremyport (talk) 17:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Jeremy Port

See the discussion above on why this article is not for the manufactured publicity stunts Paytas creates to intentionally shine the spotlight on herself. Sparkle1 (talk) 22:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Controversies Page Needed

Please add a controversies page for Trisha Paytes. Paytes has repeatedly been accused of offending racial and gender minorities using blackface, blackfishing, and controversial labels. Specifically, Paytes used a character persona named "Trishii" to portray Japanese people in which commonly displayed stereotypes were used. Paytes has also received backlash for using makeup and hairstyling techniques, including darkening her skin, to appear of another ethnicity such as Middle Eastern or Hispanic. Although Paytes has been accused of using Blackface on multiple occasions, she denies these charges and claims to have had a tanning addiction. In addition, the online personality angered some individuals within the Transgender community by coming out as a Trans man while still identifying with her birth gender. Given Paytes's reputation of creating outlandish content for fame, some have likened her coming out as mocking Transgenders for clickbait, Paytes denies all accusations and insists she is being genuine.

Dasexycupcake (talk) 00:10, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2021

Correcting pronoun usage, typos, factual inaccuracies, and updating the page to show current events with her. ALHPOLITICS (talk) 04:02, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Regarding "typos, factual inaccuracies, and updating the page to show current events with her" it's not clear what changed you want to be made – please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

Regarding pronoun usage, you possibly have a point, from her original coming out video it seems she still wanted to use feminine pronouns (1) and it seems sources describe her nowadays either as using "female pronouns" (2) or "both she/her and they/them" (3). This is not something that can be changed through a simple edit request though, there would have to be consensus on the talk page here first, so I'll leave this for other editors to discuss. Volteer1 (talk) 06:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 March 2021

Trisha has stated multiple times in the Frenemies podcast that she has Borderline Personality Disorder. This has also been reported on in an interview by Vulture, who said that she was diagnosed at age 31 after her hospitalizations in 2019. It is not an "unknown psychiatric disorder with exhibited traits of BPD". This has been confirmed in multiple videos.

https://www.vulture.com/article/trisha-paytas-youtube-drama-queen.html 2600:8801:7F02:500:9861:ADAE:F8F7:711D (talk) 04:39, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

All set. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:16, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2021

Hello editors of the page,

I would like to submit this edit request to be able to change the Wikipedia identity photo or the main profile picture provided of Trisha Paytas with a more updated one. Sampriti.shome009 (talk) 01:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello editors, kindly respond to my edit request at the earliest so that i can make the change

Sampriti.shome009 (talk) 01:47, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please provide a picture free of copyright concerns. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:57, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2021

Within the first paragraph of the Career section, this sentence appears: "After moving to Los Angeles to pursue acting, Paytas began doing professional lingerie modeling and worked as a stripper and an escort to support herself." Please change "herself" to "themselves." Thank you! 97.124.229.1 (talk) 22:51, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

done. FMSky (talk) 23:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2021

"They attempted to break the world's fastest-talker record on Guinness World Records Unleashed, but was unable to break the record."

Change 'was' to 'were' Starchman46 (talk) 22:29, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

done --FMSky (talk) 22:31, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2021

Add associated act - Nikocado Avocado 90.250.162.71 (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:52, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• TrishaPaytas.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

2018

The Career section has no information about 2018. What were they doing in 2018? The omission of the year seems like an oversight: Surely every year is relevant/notable for a social media figure as active as Paytas, even if a summary of 2018 is something like "in 2018 Paytas continued releasing similar content to what they had before." Of the universe (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Early career in the lead

The lead section currently contains info about Paytas' early career, which in my opinion does not belong in the lead section. Per WP:Lead, the opening section should "identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Emphasis in the lead on their pre-fame career seems like WP:Undue_Weight, unless their early work as a model and stripper, and their side appearances in music videos is an important part of their ultimate public image? Of the universe (talk) 22:20, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Of the universe: I agree, WP:ROLEBIO also supports this. I've gone ahead and removed it from the lead. I feel like the lead still needs to be improved but honestly, the entire article does. Throast (talk | contribs) 21:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Rendering the text unreadable - Added to 14th February 2022

Text partially unreadable to native English speakers other than those from the U.S.A. due to "gender"izing the text. This is not the Murcan Wikipedia, this is read in Britain, Ireland, Canada, Oz, New Zealand, South Africa, to name a few. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:DF02:1B00:4C86:FECC:DD88:1C16 (talk) 22:50, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Can you be more specific and/or provide examples of sentences you think are problematic? Of the universe (talk) 19:19, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

PLEASE TAKE NOTE. This page is an abomination for the above given reason. The term "They", "Themselves" are not used in correct terms in the main article. If the article covers two or more people then fine but it covers one person so the terms are used too loosely. The person should be referenced under either the subjects name(s) or a term that that is correct such as "she", "her" or in reference to the third person, "they have", "they are". The terms "They moved back" and "They returned to Illinois" are only correct if referencing multiple people. The term "Paytas stated they used to have substance abuse problems" should be correctly written as "Paytas stated that she used to have substance abuse problems" as she is referencing herself and not others. Wikipedia needs to work with facts, the correct usage of the English language and not hyperbole. Currently acceptable terms for people who are gender fluid need to be formulated and used but as has been alluded to above, the incorrect use of the language renders the page grammatically poor to other English speakers around the world. Please leave this note here as a record at least until someone has the sense to deal with the main articles issues. Thank you. 15th February 2022 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.157.52.81 (talk) 00:03, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The use of "they" as a singular third person pronoun is in accordance with the Wikipedia manual of style. See MOS:GID and MOS:IDINFO. Note the guide explicitly states "They/them pronouns are always acceptable in article space for subjects who have stated that they prefer them." Of the universe (talk) 19:50, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2021

Remove the mention that Trisha Paytas has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. She has not been officially diagnosed. 174.34.203.240 (talk) 03:19, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: This is directly from the cited source: "All that aside, Paytas’s mental health is not a joke. She was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder at age 31, and previously received two paranoid schizophrenia diagnoses at age 12 and again at 18." RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:36, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Marriage to Moses Hacmon

Just as an explanatory supplement in case there is any further edit warring on this issue: Per WP:ABOUTSELF, their YouTube video can not be used as a source for their marriage because the claim that the subject is married involves a third party, Moses Hacmon. Something that might also be important here: Just because things are true in the world does not justify inclusion in Wikipedia (Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth might be a helpful read).

Additionally, if content in a BLP is disputed, it is not to be restored per WP:BLPUNDEL. If you are in favor inclusion, please discuss the issue here instead. Throast (talk | contribs) 12:13, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2021

Trisha as stated is now married & I am requesting a last name change from Paytas to Hacmon. That is all. 2603:8000:F700:3300:F578:E01C:1D9B:C67C (talk) 16:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2022

Trisha Paytas has been confirmed to be faking being nonbinary I don't have a name 111 (talk) 16:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 16:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2022

Add photo of Trisha Paytas https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trisha_Paytas_on_Instagram.png. Sydbann (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The image is non-free since it is taken from Paytas's Instagram page and will likely be deleted on Commons soon. Throast (talk | contribs) 16:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 September 2022

Trisha has a daughter by the name of Elizabeth Paytas-Hacmon, born Thursday September 8th. She was born three minutes after Queen Elizabeth the II died. 152.30.192.179 (talk) 21:52, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 22:12, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2022

Trisha and Moses welcomed their first child, a daughter on September 14th, 2022 named Malibu-Barbie. 77.101.97.175 (talk) 09:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Paytas's daughter's full legal name and precise date of birth have been added and removed from the article multiple times now, meaning this is contentious information that requires consensus before being reinstated. Personally, I don't see her daughter's birth as that historically relevant as to include anything more detailed than "Paytas gave birth to a daughter in 2022". If it were up to me, I'd even strike the month. Seems like WP:CRUFT that is ultimately useless to the average reader. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 10:06, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Throast Don't most biographies on Wikipedia mention children's names? See for example the h3h3Productions article, which mentions Theodore and Bruce in the personal life section. Of the universe (talk) 15:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

What we include in this BLP is not informed by what's included in other BLPs. It is true that the child's name is verifiable, but then again not all verifiable information must be included. At this point in time, the child's name is not encyclopedically relevant. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 15:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I mean, editorial consistency is valuable on Wikipedia. So, imo, either you're correct in general and children's names should be removed from other pages, or there's something different about Paytas, or the child's name should be included here.

Is there something different about Paytas? I'm not a Paytas expert by any means, but I know they're a figure whose personal life is extremely public, and children are a big part of a person's personal life---so to me it seems like if children's names are WP:DUE anywhere, they're due here.

Thoughts? (I literally will go around removing children's names if you convince me you're right in general, lol) Of the universe (talk) 11:55, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

The policy guide you should be citing is probably WP:BLPNAME. See note e: This is generally interpreted by the community to include the removal of names of non-notable minors from articles about their notable family members, such as when a notable individual births or sires a non-notable minor. Notability is not presumed or inherited with extremely limited exception (such as heir to a throne or similar) Of the universe (talk) 11:58, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

DUE regards points of view, not trivial bits like names of family members. Such information is subject to VNOT. And sure, BLPNAME is just a more specific instance of VNOT. Glad you figured that out yourself. Many articles have established a local consensus on these type of issues, so neither you nor I should go around and blanket-delete such information. To quote BLPNAME, in this specific case, I don't believe her daughter's name is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. I've basically already said as much above. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 12:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

@Throast Youre right re:WP:DUE, people were calling it undue in their edit summaries, so that's what I was responding to.

To be clear, I'm not going to go around blanket deleting information without looking at edit histories and talk pages (im not a vandal :) ), but imo you have a point about vnot that should extend to a lot of other pages too. Of the universe (talk) 00:27, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2023

Please add a “controversies” section if possible. I’m writing a paper on this creator and there’s a lot of info missing about the negative aspects of her career. Thank you 70.76.56.157 (talk) 22:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Not done: When creating edit requests you are required to present what you want a reviewing editor to do specifically. That is to say, you should phrase your request to sound something like "Please change X to Y" or "Please remove/add Y" with X and Y being quoted prose. If adding content, you must also specify where specifically in the article you wish to insert it. —Sirdog (talk) 23:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)