Talk:Triple Crown (baseball)

Older, undated and unsigned comments

How can Mantle be the last person to win the Triple Crown when shortly after this, it says Carl Yaz won it in 1967? Wikipedia is not fact!!!

Charts are a little confusing. There's no way to distinguish a league winner from a Major's winner.

I think I fixed that. Spartacus007 21:19, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[July 28, 2010] This article says that Grover Cleveland Alexander won the triple crown three times. The article on Alexander says that he won it four times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland_Alexander —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stingermn (talk • contribs) 13:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Fixed in Alexander's article; this article is correct. Fred Anderson won the ERA title in 1917 (see Baseball-Reference). — KV5 • Talk • 13:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Updated Stats

Some of these stats look old. Baseball-Reference.com, for example, has Lajoie hitting .426 in 1901. Older books may have wrong numbers for a variety of reasons, principly because statistics weren't comprehensively kept at the time. SABR guys reading through old boxscores occasionally have to update stats, which I suspect is the case here. If no one objects, I'll update the listed stats to be in line with either MLB.com or Baseball-Reference.com, which are the most reliable, up to date sources I have access to. WilyD 20:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Baseball-reference is not the official, sanctioned numbers approved of my MLB. The Elias Sports Bureau tabulates the official numbers, even if they are wrong. Officially, the numbers are as follows: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/awards/mlb_awards_content.jsp?content=tc_batting

Kingturtle 18:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

• So are we to prefer official to factual numbers? Heinie Zimmerman's article mentions how he didn't win the triple crown, and Hugh Duffy's mentions how he hit for the highest average in MLB history, .440. This is a confusing situation. I imagine the best way to resolve it is to either present the official numbers, with a note about the correct numbers, or to present the correct numbers, with a note about the official ones. I prefer to latter, but am certainly open to ideas. WilyD 20:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

What we can do is provide the Official list, and a Sabramatrician list and explain why there are differences. Kingturtle 21:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Why does table show Hugh Duffy not in the Hall of Fame? Duffy was inducted in 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcus0202 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Charles Radbourn Major League Triple Crown

Why is Charles Radbourn 1884 Triple Crown not listed as "Major League" triple Crown?

Charles Radbourn 1884 strikouts did not lead the majors. Daily had 483, Shaw 451 and Radbourn 441.

Major League Triple Crown

There were other major leagues around back then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.52.248 (talk) 02:03, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

What is this stuff about a "major league triple crown"? No one talks about this. I guarantee you, if you talk about a triple crown winner around people who know baseball, no one goes "which do you mean, the league triple crown, or the major league triple crown?"

You make a valid point. let me try to re-work the article. Kingturtle 05:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I re-worded the text, and touched up the charts. in charts, italics are genereally easier to pick out - and in charts, it is generally better looking (and acceptable) to have redundant names hyperlinked. Kingturtle 05:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Wrong on all counts. It's a distinction that is recognized by anyone knowledgeable about baseball [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] -66.254.235.11 03:04, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Those citations not withstanding, I disagree with your assertion that it's "a distinction recognized by anyone knowledgeable about baseball." I've been an editor or contributor to six baseball encylopedias and I've never used it. It's a minor distinction that has been given too much prominence in this article. Based on the other comments on this talk page, the way it has been added to this article is causing too much confusion. I've moved the comment about the MLTC to its own section, removing it from the lead paragraph, but I wouldn't object to removing it completely. Might be much better to simply say, in one or two sentences, that some of the Triple Crown winners posted totals that led all of the Major Leagues. Anson2995 04:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagree completely, which leads me to question your supposed "credentials." From my own experience, I know the distinction to be a material and widely recognized one. The anon produced more than enough citations (5 or 6, I believe) to demonstrate that. We can't disregard the facts simply because you want us to.-DSJ2 06:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that the distinction doesn't exist, but rather that using the whole first paragraph to discuss it is terribly misleading. When people speak of baseball's triple crown, they are almost always refering to leading one's own league in the three categories. The weight given to the MLB Triple Crown in this article ignores that fact, and as a result it's unnecessarily confusing. This is a straightforward topic that has been needlesly muddled.

The anon's citations support an argument that the distinction exists as a concept, but does not contradict my argument that it is a minor distinction given too much weight in this entry. To that end, I offer five more citations which list the triple crown winners, making no mention of a "major league triple crown." [6][7][8][9][10]

And since you questioned my credentials, I was co-editor for the sixth (1999) and seventh (2001) editions of Total Baseball: The Official Encyclopedia of Baseball and a conributing editor to the eighth edition of Total Baseball (2004), The Baseball Encyclopedia (2004), The 2005 ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia, and The 2006 Baseball Encyclopedia. All of those books listed the triple crown winners, and none of them mentioned the "Major League Triple Crown." I've got copies of the Macmillan Baseball Encylopedia dating back to the first edition in 1969, the Turkin/Thompson Encyclopedia of Baseball dating to the first edition in 1951, and even Ernie Lanigan's 1922 Baseball Cyclopedia. None of them use the term. It hasn't appeared in any of the 23 editions of the Neft & Cohen Sports Encyclopedia Baseball, either. So I guess I continue to disagree with the notion that it's a "widely recognized" distinction, and I certainly dispute the prominence it has been given in your edits. Anson2995 01:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that more than enough citations have been offered in support (including citations from Major League Baseball, itself). This is really a non-issue, and I fail to see anything even remotely "confusing" about this article. The difference is as fundamental and simple as the difference between a guy who wins the AL Home Run title and a guy who wins the MLB Home Run title. Even the HoF makes it a point to distinguish between the Major League Triple Crown and the AL/NL TCs.-24.186.220.44 19:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Where does the HOF make that distinction? See [11]. Anson2995 22:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The confusion is apparent at the top of this talk page... the first two entries are from people expressing confusion over the issue. One of the sources cited in support of MLTC ([12])is a letter to the editor by a reader expressing confusion over the use of the term. Again, the fact that the concept exists is not in dispute. I am disputing that it should be included in the chart, and that discussion of MLTC should be the lead paragraph. I challenge you (anyone) to produce other prominent sources who present the triple crown information in the same way as you would have us do here. I don't believe it has ever appeared that way in a baseball encyclopedia or almanac, and I already cited that five of the most popular baseball history websites don't do it that way. This article stands in stark contrast to every other refernce source on the subject - Anson2995 13:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Look no further than MLB's official stats page. If the charts and wording of the article are confusing, they can be clarified. What is normative for existing baseball encyclopedias is not particularly relevant when plenty of noteworthy references exist to the MLTC outside of baseball encyclopedias. N6 16:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the chart headings are messed up: the heading "Major League Winners - pitching" is directly underneath "Major League Winners - batting." The batting table should be in between. I couldn't figure out how to fix it. Rdodger (talk) 16:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

*Visual Layout of Tabular Data Would it not make more sense, visually, to place the asterisk denoting MLTC next to the dagger in the box with the player's name - instead of placing it next to each of the three category statistics? I spent better than 10 minutes perusing the article before I figured out where the indicator was. Since the nature of holding this distinction requires that the player lead both leagues in all three categories, it seems redundant to have each of the categories asterisked and causes the point to be lost. Irish Melkite (talk) 04:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC) 04:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense to have an both an asterisk/dagger AND a color change to indicate Hall of Fame status, Major League Triple Crown status, etc. There should be one mark to denote these things; having two confuses the reader into thinking that there are two clarifications being made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gbmontgo (talk • contribs) 16:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Johan Santana

I just reverted a sequence of edits adding Johan Santana to the AL and ML pitching triple crown lists. While his position here is almost assured at this point--he is not scheduled to pitch again this season, and the only pitcher with a conceivable chance to pass him in any category (Brandon Webb, ERA) would have to pitch a 10-inning shutout in his last start--but let's wait until it's truly official. I'm a Twins fan and have already personally celebrated Santana's accomplishment, but it is too early to put it in an encyclopedia. =) N6 16:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree and just reverted the same thing. -Phoenixrod 04:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Santana will tie in Wins. We should note that by placing his win totals in Italics. Also, any other ties in previous triple crowns should be noted with italics. Kingturtle 18:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel that it is necessary to indicate ties in TC categories. A Triple Crown is a Triple Crown is a Triple Crown. If no distinction is made in general parlance between a Triple Crown that includes a tie and one that doesn't, why should one be made here? N6 16:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

In response specifically to 2 anonymous edits in recent days adding a parenthetical note to Johan Santana's mention in the body text, there is really no need for such a note. Even if we were to demarcate ties in the statistical tables, Santana hasn't won the Triple Crown except or although he tied in wins: he has won the Triple Crown, full stop. The tie in wins is no more relevant to this article than the fact that his team was bounced from the ALDS or the fact that he also led the AL in innings pitched. N6 16:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No Triple Crown Winner for Decades

Has there been any writing or theorizing that anyone knows of about why this has come about? For hitting that is. Thanks. W.C. 16:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The way some people including me look at it is the growing distinction between power hitters and contact hitters. In early baseball, your power hitters tended to also be your best contact hitters, and therefore could lead in average and home runs. In modern baseball, power hitters hit for decent averages, but it is the speedy leadoff guys who will lead in the average. The exception being players like Barry Bonds, but he didn't play in enough games late in his career to rack up enough RBIs Trek222 (talk) 06:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Decades?? No NL player has won the TC for over 70 years??Dcrasno (talk) 21:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes? — KV5 • Talk • 00:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It is not an award

I think there is a somewhat misleading aspect to this article. There is no award actually handed out for "winning" the triple crowd. Many articles, Cy Young for example, make it appear as if the Triple Crown is an actual award. This needs to be fixed. Are there any suggestions on how to do this? I would consider this a "interesting" fact or "notable achievement". //Tecmobowl 02:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• As a follow up, I have begun to rework the Young article. To see an example of the problem, you can view this version. //Tecmobowl 03:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

While there is not, to my knowledge, any tangible plaque or trophy awarded for players who attain triple crowns, and I personally do not think of it as an award, Baseballreference.com does list Triple Crown Winners under the site's "Awards Index" tab.Thegooddogman (talk) 05:06, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Pitching Triple Crown?

I don't dispute that it probably exists, but I've never heard of it before, and I'm a life long baseball fan. I just asked my dad and he hasn't heard of it either. Is it a new thing? Perhaps since the advent of sabremetrics? You might want to make it clearer that the term generally refers to the hitting title. Or refer to the fact that the pitching crown is a relatively new innovation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.127.51.82 (talk • contribs) 28 October 2007

No, it is not a new thing. It is a term that is at least 20 years old. Kingturtle 21:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Kingturtle, although 20 years in baseball isn't actually that long, given the long tradition of the game. Maybe that's what our anonymous contributor was getting at. Terms like "relatively new" depend on one's perspective. -Phoenixrod 01:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I said 20 years because that's how far my memory goes. I don't have access to the sorts of newspaper and journal searches that could answer the question properly. It would be interesting to see when the term came into parlance. Kingturtle 21:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of it either. Not ONCE. The triple crown is two things: horse racing and baseball batting. Everything else is part of the general trend of wikipedia overdocumenting nonsense. 74.72.194.60 (talk) 00:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I added the citation. It is valid outside of Wikipedia. This is not something Wikipedia invented. Kingturtle (talk) 01:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I've heard the term quite often. I rememeber discussions among the Yankees broadcasters in 1978 about whether Ron Guidry would win it (he came close, finishing 2nd in strikeouts to Nolan Ryan, 260-248), so it's been around for at least 30 years. It doesn't have a place in the greater American consciousness like the batting version does, but it is certainly known in baseball circles. -Dewelar (talk) 02:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the misconceptions about both triple crowns and especially the MLTC may be, in part, geographical. No ML hitter has ever achieved the Crown west of St. Louis. No ML pitcher had ever achieved the Crown west of St. Louis until Sandy Koufax did it in 1963 in LA (Koufax achieved three [consecutive] pitching triple crowns in '63, '65 and '66 [no award in '64] and all three were for the MLTC). I don't know about the rest of the country but this discussion has been going and in our family in NYC since before I was born in '52. In the modern era, the TC for hitting (and I generously include Ty Cobb from Detroit in '09), except for the the three St. Louis Cardinal TC awards (two for Rogers Hornsby, one for Joe Medwick), it's generally an East Coast thing.Dcrasno (talk) 23:34, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Who is saying that s/he never heard a "Pitching Triple Crown"? It is a well-used term. For example, the index of winners listed on Baseball Reference uses the terms "Batting Triple Crown" and "Pitching Triple Crown". Thegooddogman (talk) 05:06, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Hugh Duffy

Baseball Reference does not list Hugh Duffy as a Triple Crown winner. Can we get a ruling on this?Thegooddogman (talk) 05:06, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Formating

I went through and cleaned up the tables by making the entries standardized. Things were being linked in one place, but half way down the page, the link would be gone, only to reapeer later. Also changed the way the major league triple crown table is set up by adding a league column, and taking out the -AL or -NL that some teams had affixed to their name. All in all I think it made the article look more consistent. Trek222 (talk) 06:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

"Major League" Triple Crown

Re "Major League Triple Crown", I was chastised (by Ed Fitzgerald) of vandalising this article with "added nonsense" because I corrected the entry stating that Carl Yastzremski was the most recent winner of the Major League Triple Crown in 1967 by correcting Yaz with Mickey Mantle in 1956. Wiki's own published list in this article states Mantle as the last MLTC winner but states in the notes that it was Yaz. Yaz was the most recent TC winner in 1967 but it was only the AL TC winner- he did not lead in all three catagories in BOTH leagues.--Dcrasno (talk) 01:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Your both wrong it was Pedro Cerano, from the 1989 Cleveland Indians, Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn won the Cy Young in the same year. LOOK IT UP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.123.115.226 (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I made some changes to make it a bit clearer when a "major league" winner is being referred to and when a plain-vanilla winner is. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 04:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Triple Crown losers?

I question the existence of this section within this article. First of all, I've been following baseball for over thirty years and have never heard this term. I found no reliable sources that use this term. What's the point of having it at all? If nothing else, it's confusing to the casual reader. -Dewelar (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll add a citation. Kingturtle (talk) 01:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. I still don't think it belongs in this article. SABR does a lot of analysis of random baseball stuff - that doesn't make all of it notable. -Dewelar (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Table merge

I disagree with the recent mass table merge. The abbreviations aren't clarified anywhere, and I am really tired of seeing abbreviations of league names in tables where simple workarounds like section headers or writing the name out in full are easy and available. Although it's not a valid argument, I also just plain don't like it. I think the old way was much cleaner. I'm not just going to jump in and mass-revert all of Muboshgu's contributions, but I think this should have been discussed before this particular bold action due to the fact that this is a featured list. — KV5 • Talk • 00:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I figured odds were that somebody would disapprove, but per WP:BOLD went for it anyway. I didn't see a good reason to separate the leagues, especially as the AA only had one batter and pitcher each to win Triple Crowns, making little use of table sorting for comparisons. I'll add abbreviations, but if it's decided that it should go back, I won't argue. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Cardinals do not have 4

The St. Louis Cardinals have only 3, tied with the Red Sox. The article incorrectly says the St. Louis Cardinals used to be the St. Louis Browns. This is not true, the Browns were a separate teams playing side-by-side with the Cards in St. Louis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.228.112.61 (talk) 02:38, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

You are incorrect. There have been several incarnations of the St. Louis Brown Stockings/St. Louis Browns, the second of which is now the Cardinals National League franchise. The first incarnation was the original St. Louis Brown Stockings of the National Association, who played alongside the NA's St. Louis Red Stockings, from which the Cardinals derive their colors. Later, another Browns franchise played alongside the Cardinals before moving to Baltimore to become the Orioles. See St. Louis Browns (disambiguation) for the full list of related articles. — KV5 • Talk • 16:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Miguel Cabrera not in Hall of Fame

I think too much attention in this article is paid to the fact that Miguel Cabrera is not in the Hall of Fame (alternately, "one of only two offensive TC winners not in the HOF"). Of course he isn't, as an active player. This is patently obvious to any baseball fan (some other sports do enshrine still-active participants in their HOF) and the article makes it seem like Cabrera is the victim of some sort of injustice, which is not so. Doug Ewell 21:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DougEwell (talk • contribs)

Batting Quadruple Crown Section Deleted

The section on "Quadruple Batting Crown" defined it as leading the league in hits in addition to the three traditional Triple Crown categories. It noted that it is not officially recognized by MLB, but in fact it is not generally considered a thing a thing at all. Newspaper articles using the term "Quadruple Crown" in baseball are infrequent. The earliest I could find were from Mickey Mantle's 1956 Triple Crown season, adding runs scored to home runs, runs batted in, and batting average. Runs were also added to the traditional three in articles in 1994 and 2001, talking about the possibility of a Quadruple Crown by Jeff Bagwell and Frank Thomas (1994), and Sammy Sosa (2001). (None ending up as even Triple Crown winners.) Other articles in different years adding stolen base or slugging average as a fourth category. Articles about Negro League Hall of Famer Turkey Stearns used doubles, triples, home runs, and stolen bases. There were even articles adding a non-statistical fourth category: defense or a pennant.