Talk:Transitional Presidential Council
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History[edit]
Copied from ITN : this is an article on a body that was legally constituted three days ago, whereas the TPC to which you're referring is a body of the same name that conjured itself into existence in March to advise the creation of the regularized body (and whose members are making a political claim to also being the April TPC, which may be the source of the confusion).
(Chetsford)
The source of the confusion, I think, is that it's a confusing situation. On Saturday, 16 March Reuters wrote: "Most of the nine people who will sit on Haiti's political transition council have been named by the groups they represent, although a couple are still pending, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Friday." This is part of the history of the TPC, especially given that the decree was published based on a working document sent by the same TPC that Blinken referred to on 15 March. Now I will grant that the TPC "conjured itself into existence" in much the same way as the sitting government "conjured itself into existence", since nobody has been elected either in the government, or on the TPC...
Let's be clear... is anyone opposed to listing the names of the representatives published in Le Nouvelliste and in the Miami Herald?
copied from Haitian crisis (2018–present)
| Proposed composition of the transitional presidential council[1] | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Member | Party | Member | Party |
| Edgard Leblanc Fils | 30 January Collective |
Smith Augustin | EDE-RED- Historic Compromise [α] |
| Fritz Alphonse Jean | Montana Accord | Leslie Voltaire | Fanmi Lavalas |
| Laurent St Cyr | Private Sector | Louis Gérald Gilles | 21 December Agreement |
| Emmanuel Vertilaire | Pitit Desalin | ||
Added to these seven members are two observers (Frinel Joseph and Régine Abraham).[3]
- ^ EDE / RED / Historic compromise counts Jovenel Moïse's prime minister Claude Joseph among its leadership, while the 21st December Agreement is close to deposed prime minister Ariel Henry. The private sector refers to allied business associations including, for example, the ADIH.[2]
References
- ^ Geffrard, Robenson (2024-03-24). "Smith Augustin remplace Dominique Dupuy au sein du Conseil présidentiel de transition". Le Nouvelliste (in French). Archived from the original on 25 March 2024. Retrieved 26 March 2024.
- ^ Ives, Kim (2024-03-20). "Is Former De Facto Prime Minister Ariel Henry Now a De Facto Prisoner?"". Haïti Liberté. Archived from the original on 26 March 2024. Retrieved 26 March 2024.
- ^ Charles, Jacqueline (2024-04-08). "Haitian leaders finalize political accord for proposed transition government". Miami Herald. Archived from the original on 9 April 2024. Retrieved 9 April 2024.
This would go in a history section which would describe the state of negotiations when the document was sent to the sitting government. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 19:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- NB: the rather incendiary article by Kim Ives is included only to source ADIH and because it does a good job of identifying the parties.-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 20:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- " is anyone opposed to listing the names of the representatives published in Le Nouvelliste and in the Miami Herald" I am opposed. The references cited, published before the April TPC was constituted, refer to members of the March TPC. This is an article about the identically named, but legally separate, TPC created in April.
To recap, in March 2024, a body was assembled under the name "Transitional Presidential Council". The following month, on April 12, a second body was assembled under state authority with an identical name ("Transitional Presidential Council"). The two bodies have no legal relation to each other, despite the fact the first body loudly claims to also be the second body (and advised in its creation). But this is a rhetorical political claim only unsupported by any source. Identifying the members of the first body as also being members of the second body would, therefore, violate WP:NPOV. While it may (likely) come to pass that the members of the March TPC are all appointed to the April TPC, until such time as that happens, to claim they have actually been appointed (when they have not) is the shiniest WP:CRYSTALBALL into which ever my eyes have gazed.
(The Labour Party will likely win the next UK parliamentary election. Until such time as that actually happens, though, it's not appropriate to replace Rishi Sunak with Sir Keir Starmer in the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom article. We can't do that today, or tomorrow, or next week. The likely future is not a substitute for the actual present.)
Chetsford (talk) 07:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- The patronizing example above has absolutely nothing to do with the situation here. As everyone is aware, it is not a coincidence that the 9 parties in the March 2024 CPT are identical to the 9 parties mentioned in the decree published in April and that most of the text submitted by the Conseil présidentiel de transition was taken verbatim from the document sent by the group on 3 April.
- It is not clear what purpose is served by refusing to include the history of the creation of this entity, but that's wikipedia for you. One person can block the logical development of a page documenting the history of an entity as reported in reliable sources with silly analogies *not* reported in reliable sources. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 10:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you feel patronized, that was not my intention.
"It is not clear what purpose is served by refusing to include the history of the creation of this entity" Certainly, I have no problem if the history of the March TPC and its influence on the formation of the TPC (as legally constituted in April) is described in the background, including naming the members, provided an indefinite article versus a definitive article is used to precede any mention of the March TPC so as not to legitimize the political claims of the March body as to also being the April body.
What I'm opposed to is conflating the March TPC with the April TPC and representing the members of the former as the members of the latter. This is the political rhetoric of the party representatives. Our role is to represent the technical reality of situations in our articles, not the hopes and aspirations of involved parties.
"as reported in reliable sources" I disagree this has occurred in any way. The two references you provide are dated March. All reliable sources date the creation of the TPC that is the subject of this article to April 12. The fact that I can find RS from 2010 that refers to Barack Obama as "president" does not mean I can go through and replace all mentions of "Joe Biden" with "Barack Obama" in the article White House COVID-19 Response Team. Chetsford (talk) 14:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you feel patronized, that was not my intention.
- I have given you the information you need to complete the page you started. If you don't mind though, I don't think I'll stick around for any more clever analogies... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 15:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. My attention was drawn back to the page because someone linked to it at the main page on the crisis. I've corrected some mangled misinformation that was supposedly sourced to the Economist article. (I finally made an account and read the full article to check to make sure the discordant claims were not actually made in the article.) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 13:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Smith Augustin note[edit]
The footnote for Smith Augustin in the Composition of TPC mentions Jovanel Moise without relating that to the topic. It also says "… the 21 December Agreement is close to deposed prime minister Ariel Henry … " which doesn't make sense to me. Then finally it makes a statement about the private sector which doesn't seem related to Smith Augustin. Jojalozzo (talk) 16:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Don't have access to my laptop to fix this at the moment. Due to five people editing the form of the table, the footnote no longer appears at the end of the top line of a double row... (I probably should have known a table would attract tinkering. 🤓)
- It's moved up to party/group now.-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 17:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Images[edit]
@Chetsford: I'm not sure if you saw that the text you added about the Canadian activist quoting Guy Philippe was removed as WP:FRINGE. You may wish to look for further sources if you want to include his opinion (there probably are some). As for the images, I'm a bit concerned that this page has no photos of anyone actually on the council and is dominated by pictures of a gang/militia leader and foreign actors. I'm not sure that's very balanced. Perhaps the problem is that you could only find images of those people on Commons and not any of folks who would be more directly relevant? I had a look myself... so here's three to get you started, perhaps you could find others with appropriate licences elsewhere? :) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 18:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
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