Talk:To My Surprise (album)/GA1

GA Review

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Hi, I'll be reviewing this article. The rules for GA reviews are stated at Good Article criteria. I usually do reviews in the order: coverage; structure; detailed walk-through of sections (refs, prose, other details); images (after the text content is stable); lead (ditto). Feel free to respond to my comments under each one, and please sign each response, so that it's clear who said what.

When an issue is resolved, I'll mark it with  Done. If I think an issue remains unresolved after responses / changes by the editor(s), I'll mark it  Not done. Occasionally I decide one of my comments is off-target, and strike it out --Philcha (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Coverage

• Y It's a rather short article , but I guess that's reasonable as this was the band's only album, so there's no opportunity for comparison with their other works. --Philcha (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
• The way the article presents the backstory, it looks like Shawn Crahan, Brandon Darner and Stevan Robinson formed the band to make the album. What did they think this combo could do that they weren't doing with their other bands? --Philcha (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Well seeing as this article is only about the album then that's all that is talked about here... if I was to talk about why the band formed and other things like that then it would be more like the artist's article. So i don't think this kind of information should be in this article. REZTER ^TALK ø 17:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
    • If I understand this article correctly, the new band made only this album, so why the band was formed and why the album was made are pretty much the same question. To look at it another way, why could they not have made similar albums with their existing bands.? --Philcha (talk) 21:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
• Nothing at all on sales figures or chart placings. --Philcha (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • When I was writing and expanding this article I searched for literally days, through hundreds of websites and I never found any mentioning of sales and chart placings. I just guess it didn't do very well because it didn't receive much media attention. REZTER ^TALK ø 17:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
    • See next item. --Philcha (talk) 21:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
• Nothing at all on sales promotion, video, etc. --Philcha (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • There is info about the music video for "In The Mood" and information about another track appearing in a video game. Like I previously said there was not a lot media attention on the band and I'm afraid I can't find any other reports of promotional like things. REZTER ^TALK ø 17:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
    • In your responses to this point and the previous one, you say "it didn't receive much media attention." That almost suggests the article is on the borderline of WP:Notability, and a deletionist might be tempted to send it to Articles for Deletion. I'm no deletionist, so I wouldn't suggest or support deletion. But if it didn't get much media attention, the article's unlikely to have neough content for a GA. --Philcha (talk) 21:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • Slipknot's Crahan Not Clowning Around With Side Project seems to have additional material you could use. So does Hard-Rock Clown Finds His Inner Softie. If there aren't many sources, you have to get as much as possible (and relevant) out of the ones that exist. I strongly suggest you read (or listen to, for podcasts) all the sources thoroughly to see what additional material they can provide. One hint: games.
    • But please make sure you use them accurately - see below. --Philcha (talk) 22:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
      • Could you specify what "additional material" you are referring to? REZTER ^TALK ø 13:40, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
        • If I did that, I'd be involved in researching and editing, and would have to disqualify myself as a reviewer. You should find more quirte easily by reading the sources - I saw things while skimming to check that statements in the article were supported by the sources. Even a title that I cited above gives a clue. --Philcha (talk) 14:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
    • BTW when books are cited, page numbers are required. For podcasts, I suggest time ranges for each point the article makes that relies on the podcast - no reviewer is going to listen for 30 mins to check if a point is supported. --Philcha (talk) 22:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
      • I knew that.... but I never cited any books. REZTER ^TALK ø 13:40, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
        • I understand that you knew about pages in books. I think similar rules should apply to podcasts. --Philcha (talk) 14:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Structure

(I'll wait until the coverage issues are resolved)

Reception

• Hard-Rock Clown Finds His Inner Softie does not say that the album was influenced by Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Queen and early Billy Joel. --Philcha (talk) 22:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Well it says; "Unlike Mr. Crahan, Mr. Darner, 26, is hardly a music veteran. He continues to run a janitorial business in Des Moines with his wife. But music has always been his dream. Influenced by musicians like the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Queen and early Billy Joel, he said, he has had the ambition since he was 15 to write one of the greatest albums of all time." Which has got to have had some kind of influence on how he would write and album. REZTER ^TALK ø 13:33, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
    • That makes the unsupported assumption that Darner had a dominant influence in the composition, whihc is supported by no cited source. In fact the passage you quoted makes it unlikely in the absence of clear evidence - "Mr. Darner, 26, is hardly a music veteran" -Philcha (talk) 14:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Lead

• " The album was primarily self produced by Shawn Crahan and Brandon Darner but acclaimed producer Rick Rubin was credited as executive producer" is not suported by the main text, where the cited source (MTV news Sep 9 2003) simply says "The self-titled debut album by To My Surprise, the side project of Slipknot's Shawn "Clown" Crahan, carries the release date of October 7. The LP was produced by Rick Rubin. ... Call it the Best of Both Worlds for the mature audience" (and that's all it says). --Philcha (talk) 22:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I didnt source that in the lead, never mind sourcing it to that website. That actually comes from the credits on the CD itself. REZTER ^TALK ø 13:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Then you need to site the CD. I know there's a citation template for multimedia, use that. --Philcha (talk) 14:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

On hold

I am formally placing this review on hold. That means you have 7 days to deal with the issues raised. --Philcha (talk) 14:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

- - - - - please add review comments /responses above this line - - - - -
If you want to start a new section of the Talk page while this review is still here, edit the whole page, i.e.use the "edit" link at the top of the page.

Conclusion: fails to reach GA

The last edit was 27 Feb and the last response was 8 Mar. The issues raised have not been resolved. I therefore conclude that this article fails to reach GA. --Philcha (talk) 15:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)