Talk:Thopha saccata

Sources

Found 1904 monograph here -

Goding, F.W., & W.W. Froggatt, 1904. Monograph of the Australian Cicadidae. Proceedings of the Linnean Society of New South Wales 29(3): 561–670, pls. XVIII, XIX.

To write up later....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

This looks like a useful bibliography to go through. --99of9 (talk) 06:58, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Nice find! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is Distant 1912 [1]. --99of9 (talk) 04:01, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Distant doesn't say much in this - just a basic diagnosis. Just looking up some others now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Song

The song has been described as "Tar-ran-tar-rar-tar-ran-tar-rar".[15]

I suggest "Zint-zint-zint-zint" is more like it! 203.9.151.254 (talk) 06:39, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Thopha saccata/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Yzx (talk · contribs) 04:04, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Comments to follow. -- Yzx (talk) 04:04, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• images ok
• "Described by Johan Christian Fabricius in 1803, it was the first Australian cicada described" -- the two occurrences of "described" in this sentence is awkward

reworded --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "thorax", "tymbal", "abdomen", and "eucalypt" should be linked in intro

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Some years they appear in great numbers, yet are absent in others" -- sentence structure is odd, suggest "they appear in great numbers in some years, yet are absent in others"

reworded, with but instead of yet --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

done - i like 'yet' Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "tambour" should be linked

aah I remember now, the link is weird. I will ask to see what the Hebrew translation works out as. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Hebrew" is put twice here. -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

missed that/gone now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• "John Obadiah Westwood designated it the type species of the genus" -- when?

1843/added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "The male averages 4.75 cm (1.88 in) long and the female is 5.12 cm (2.02 in) long" -- sentence construction is odd; the male here uses "averages" and the female uses "is"

reworded --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "The head is much broader than other cicadas" -- "than in other cicadas"

reworded, "than that of other cicadas" --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "and broader than the pronotum behind it" -- "and is broader"

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• what are the "vertex" and the "ocelli"?

linked now, is that enough or should we try and explain a bit? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "black pseudopupils from the posterior edge forwards" -- not sure what this means

A spot (pseudopupil) that looks like a pupil - in this case it is at the posterior edge of the eye (rather than the centre) - added "of the eye" if that helps Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• Why "posterior edge forwards" then? -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Removed "forwards" as upon thinking about it, "forwards" (i.e. anteriorly) is really the only direction it can go, hence removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:57, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• "on either side of a median line" -- seems like a really complicated way of saying "paired cone-shaped spots"

Just to give you an idea, this is what we're trying to describe - changed a bit Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:56, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think "on either side of a median line" is necessary, since this is implied by something being paired. -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

There is an actual dark stripe running down the midline - changed to "stripe" to clarify this Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• "on either side more laterally" -- "lateral to these spots are a pair of markings" would be clearer

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Two sides of the thorax are distended when compared to other Australian cicadas" -- this sentence talks about shape, and seems misplaced amidst the parts about color

moved so shape items are in one place and colour items in another Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:30, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "conical protuberances with a..." -- the dash here should be after "cuticular nanostructures", as that's what this defines

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "occasional females are darker in colour and markings" -- than males? Other females?

given the sexes are similar, darker than the average individual of either sex. I could add "than the average specimen", or just make it "dark" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• I think "darker overall than average" would be clear -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• "black markings of the fore wing costa extending past the basal cell, and lacking the white pregenital band on the abdomen" -- "forewing" should be one word, "costa", "basal cell", and "pregenital band" should be linked or explained

done all done apart pregenital band...need to figure out best place to link for that one. All it means is that species has a prominent white band around the abdomen. Given it is immediately obvious to see, adding a descriptor like "pregenital" probably confuses more than it helps, so I have dropped it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "The "song" of the Double Drummer" -- why is "song" in quotes? Also inconsistent capitalization of name

quote marks removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:35, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "The "song" of the Double Drummer is extremely loud—reportedly the loudest sound of any insect on earth[14]—and can reach an "almost unbearable"[10] volume in excess of 120 dB[15]" -- the refs here really interrupt the reading experience and I don't think it's necessary to break it up like this

moved, apart from ref/source for being loudest insect on earth as it is a separate clause Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "it is said to resemble high-pitched bagpipes" -- recommend "the song" instead of "it", since the previous sentence is so long that the pronoun loses track

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• what are the "continuous" and "staccato" phases? How do these phases fit in with the abrupt starting and stopping/variable duration of the calls?

Sometimes the cicadas just stop for a while, and start again - the constant and staccato are different calls within their call repertoire, as it were. Rewritten to clarify. Can't really extrapolate beyond the sources though. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:24, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• I suppose I'm confused about when these song types are produced; if the songs are of variable duration, does that still mean that each song (no matter how long) contains a constant and a staccato component? Do these components alternate? Or is it that when the male calls, it's either a constant or a staccato song? -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I can only go what the sources say, which is that the male cicadas flip between constant and staccato segments, but with no set cycle time or anything. Given they stop and start quite often ( e.g. when anything goes near them they are smart enough to shut up to avoid getting eaten.) - I'd assume that either component might be present or absent in any given stretch of singing, however I can't say that as none of the sources discuss that. I presume it's generally both. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:52, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• I think what confused me was the reference to the staccato song as the "second phase", which gives the impression that it has to follow the constant song, which doesn't quite jive with the idea that the song can suddenly stop and start. -- Yzx (talk) 06:05, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The source doesn't explicitly say that it does, I just used "second" for "other" here. Will double check the source actually. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Right, the original wording is as follows (see [onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-6055.1972.tb01623.x/pdf here]) "The song is quite complex, consisting of two phases which alternate irregularly. There is a phase with continuous sound pulses and slight amplitude modulation at 4-6/sec., which may last for several minutes. Then there is a phase with increasingly frequent breaks giving a staccato effect, which lasts several seconds" To me this suggests the author is indicating the constant phase is always first, though I could easily believe he may not have meant it as such if there were contradictory statements elsewhere. Hence wording it as the "second" (me) gives it as much weight as original "then...." Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• "alternate irregularly" says to me that there isn't a "first phase" and a "second phase", since which one follows the other is a relative thing. In the article, I would phrase it that the song is made up of two alternating phases, continuous and staccato, and leave out the implication of sequence. -- Yzx (talk) 16:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough - done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:34, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• "The pulse repetition frequency combines with the frequency" -- not sure what "combines with the frequency" means; which frequency?

yikes - I must have written that section when tired - I re-read the source and have rewritten. It is to do with harmonics. My sound physics is very rusty.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:12, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• "Double drummers also emit a distress call" -- is it still only males that do this?

yep/fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• the latter half of the article would be livened up by some more images, maybe of the forest or the wasp?

got one tree it alights on, and got more images after asking nice people at flickr to change their licences. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

• The caption on the "Life Cycle" image needs formatting and abbreviation removal -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:52, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• "in the branches or twigs usually of eucalypts" -- needs a comma after "twigs"

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "On average about twelve eggs, among a total batch of a few hundred, are laid in each slit" -- recommend "On average about twelve eggs are laid in each slit, for a total of several hundred"

99of9 tweaked this Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

• "The batch all hatch around" -- should be either "the batch hatches" or "the eggs all hatch"

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:05, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• "nymph" should be linked

linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Nymphs of cicadas in general then spend from four to six years underground,[21] though the timing of the double drummer's life cycle is unknown." -- think the second half of this sentence should come first

inverted sentence Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "During construction of the final straight tunnel to the surface, sap is used to moisten hard soil" -- there's no subject that this sentence refers to, also how can sap be used in this manner? Does the insect carry it?

I have removed that as it wasn't specific to the double drummer and was a little specialised. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "exuviae" needs to be linked or explained

linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Within a forest, successive broods may emerge in different spots each year" -- not sure what this means; does a brood of a given year all come out in a particular spot?

yes - seemed obvious to me from the wording so not sure how to reword to make it clearer Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:08, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• If there's actually specific species- or population-wide brooding sites, that should be mentioned then, since I was under the impression that the nymphs emerged from all over the place within a forest. -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

No no, it means that in a given year all the nymphs emerge in one spot, and the next year they might all emerge at another spot, so no set spot as such, just that a whole season's brood will emerge in a similar place Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• I think we may be miscommunicating here; so the nymphs of a given year do all emerge at a particular spot in the forest? Is this typical of cicadas? -- Yzx (talk) 06:05, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

yes they emerge from one spot one year, and another spot the next time etc. Not sure if typical of all cicadas and hadn't read about itwith other species though wouldn't be surprised if holds true. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Would this be worth mentioning then? I found it interesting. -- Yzx (talk) 15:11, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Will do some checking tonight Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Nothing in the cicada book on where nymphs emerge generally, but does note that a batch of eggs generally hatch together (so I guess you'd think they all drop down and burrow into the ground close to each other!) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• I can imagine that all the nymphs of a single brood would emerge in one spot, since presumably the female laid all her eggs close together. But would this apply to all the nymphs of a given year (i.e. multiple broods from multiple females, all located in the same area?) -- Yzx (talk) 16:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes I wondered that. Unless most of the whole batches of eggs that are laid are found and eaten, hence only occasional batches survive leading cohorts of nymphs that survive come from one or two batches (and hence emerge all close together in one or two spots(?)). No idea. Frustratingly, this is speculative as I can't find material on it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:34, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• "As cicadas extract their body and wings from the exuviae, they dry and harden" -- suggest "The cicada's body and wings dry and harden once free of the exuvia."

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• any chance of a distribution map?

will whip one up when I get an uninterrupted period on computer in next couple of days map added now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "It is found in more elevated areas" -- "elevated" here is ambiguous; do you mean relatively elevated (like a hill) or absolute elevation?

absolute elevation - reworded. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "and hence the climate there is similar to that in southeast Queensland" -- the causality here's reversed; it should be "because the climate there is similar..."

reworded. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "alight on large eucalypts,[10]," -- double comma

stray comma removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "their bodies found washed up on beaches" -- this phrase needs to be linked better with the first part of the sentence

tried rewording it a bit - tricky as the wording in the orginal is pretty slim, so can't assume what is not in source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• Maybe something about flying out to sea being a one-way trip? -- Yzx (talk)

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:03, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• "in the stomach of foxes" -- "in the stomachs"

done --99of9 (talk) 06:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Flies, beetles and ants have been observed feeding on sap from holes drilled by cicadas, with ants sometimes even seeking to pull the cicada's rostrum out." -- this doesn't seem to fit in the predation section

I have removed that as it wasn't specific to the double drummer and was a little specialised. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• "In popular culture" should be renamed, as keeping them as (short-term) pets isn't pop culture

True - bit stumped on what to call this section actually. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• I tend to use "human interactions"; "relationship with humans" also seems to be a popular one. -- Yzx (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Aah of course - done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• some refs have first name spelled out, others only have initials

Wherever possible I try to get the full name, sometimes this can be elusive....still trying Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:58, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• refs 19 and 29 -- unclear which source they refer to

I was lazy with the refs - fixed now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:58, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

-- Yzx (talk) 05:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• One more note, the author for Tettigonia saccata under Synonyms shouldn't be in parentheses, if it's the original published name. The same goes for Cicada saccata, if Germar is the original author. -- Yzx (talk) 06:16, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

de parenthesized Fabricius (oriignal author), which predates Germar Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• Is Cicada saccata a reassignment of Tettigonia saccata to another genus? If so, then the author should be (Fabricius, 1803). If it was an original description by Germar, then Germar's name should not be in parentheses. -- Yzx (talk) 15:11, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Aaah, my bad - I transcribed this without thinking (also botany rules are different with subsequent author listed outside parentheses) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:27, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Issues have been addressed to my satisfaction. I'm happy to promote the article. -- Yzx (talk) 22:44, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Great - thanks for being thorough. Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Image

The photo of the cicada on the blue carpet appears to have been digitally enhanced using an automatic function which has turned the subtle shades of yellowish-brown and reddish-brown into glaring red and yellow. It is a very poor and misleading photo which ought not to have been used as the main-page image.

Also, it detracts from the excellent image below it showing the male and female, together in their natural colours, and habitat. The brightly coloured image ought to be removed from the article, when it goes off the main page. Amandajm (talk) 07:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Amandajm here. I didn't notice Cas switching the blue image in, and would much rather have run with the much higher-quality taxobox image. Going for bright blue doesn't make sense if the blue is an artificial environment.--99of9 (talk) 01:47, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Say what??

"They emerge from the ground where they have spent several years as nymphs from November until March, and live for another four to five weeks."

Does this mean, "After spending several years underground as nymphs, they emerge at some point from November until March (thru March?) and then live another four to five weeks"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.20.170 (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes - all cicadas do that ....years underground, then a few weeks in the sun, then....pfft. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

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