Talk:Theodora (wife of Theophilos)

Theodora (wife of Theophilos) has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: November 15, 2021. (Reviewed version).

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GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Theodora (wife of Theophilos)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 19:49, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Will take this up. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:49, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria[edit]

GA Criteria

GA Criteria:

1
1.a Y

1.b Y
2
2.a Y

2.b Y

2.c Y

2.d Y
3
3.a Y

3.b Y
4
4.a Y
5
5.a Y
6
6.a Y

6.b Y

No DAB links Y
No dead links Y
No missing citations Y

Discussion[edit]

I've removed a link to academia.edu per copyright concerns.

Yeah, I'll be more careful with stuff like this in the future. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:42, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, I've certainly done it before someone (Buidhe if memory serves) commented on it. It's very disappointing to have access to a source and not be able to give it to others directly, but copyright law is what it is.

The lede seems somewhat long compared to the rest of the article, you may wish to trim it.

Trimmed it down a bit. Do you think it needs to be even shorter (not sure what else to remove in that case)? Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:42, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not in particular, you may wish to merge them into three paragraphs per MOS:Lede though. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've merged the two last paragraphs into one since the last one got quite short. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prose Suggestions[edit]

Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.

Lede[edit]

Sorry if some of these are weird, currently working off a second concussion sustained on Thursday.

Everything is perfectly clear, so no worries about that! Very sorry to hear about the concussions, there is no rush in getting through this review if you feel you need time to recover. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It shouldn't be a problem, but experience from my first tells me that my writing might be a little off for a bit. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:03, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some copy-edits, feel free to revert these.

Copy-edits look good. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

and after Theophilos's death regent for the couple's young son Michael III from 842 to 856 suggest and regent for the couple's young son Michael III, after the death of Theophilos, from 842 to 856.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

as an empress regnant 842–856,[2][8][9][10] and not just a regent first I'd suggest moving the many cites here to somewhere in the body, you can't really get around citing the alternative names in the lede only, but here it should be doable; perhaps broken between the ODB mention of it and the legacy; secondly, suggest something like as an empress regnant, who actually ruled in her own right, rather than just a regent.~

I've moved the citations down to the article body and added a bit more to the part discussing the terminology. I also changed to your wording. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given that those counting her as Regnant include Kazhdan and other sources (including Bury), I think we can take the affirmative stance (i.e. treat her as a regnant throughout the article, and replace usages of regent with regnant)). I don't think I've yet seen both Kazhdan and Bury be wrong about something; even the very pervasive propaganda surrounding Phocas. You may also want to include a citation of Bury's "A History of the Eastern Roman Empire from the Fall of Irene to the Accession of Basil I" with the sentence mentioning that she was regnant. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:37, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, as should be clear from the article she also acted as empress regnant in every meaningful way so I'm all for consistently going with regnant. I've gone ahead and done the change (mostly replacing instances of "regency" with "reign" - Bury explicitly refers to the period as Theodora's reign at least), though I extended the invisible comment in the infobox (and added one to the lede) for clarity. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As a side note I think the article title is a bit meh since she ruled the empire for longer than she was married to Theophilos but none of the alternate names (Theodora II, Theodora the Armenian, Theodora the Blessed) are particularly common and she is mostly called just Theodora and distinguished from the others through mentioning her husband or the time period. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: You could change it to just Theodora (empress); currently, that serves as a redirect to the wife of Justinian, but this Theodora is more deserving of it IMO. I'd be happy to round-robin it after this if you'd like. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:03, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the issue is that Justinian's wife is by far the most famous of the 11 empresses named Theodora. I agree that this Theodora is more deserving though, so if you think it's fine you're more than welcome to go ahead with that after the review. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: Done; on a side note, she and Thekla are right next to each other on the GA page now :). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: Great! Very nice :) Thank you very much for reviewing! Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

failure in trying to retake Crete suggest removing in trying

Removed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After being selected by Theophilos she was crowned empress on 5 June 830. suggest replacing selected with chosen to avoid repeated usage.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Theophilos was an iconoclast; it is unclear to what extent he was aware that his wife was an iconophile suggest Theophilos was an iconoclast, who opposed the veneration of icons, it is unclear how aware he was that Theodora was an iconophile. (I think the obvious opposition of the terms and the following sentence's elaboration is good enough for the lede to not define iconophile here.)

Changed. I agree that defining iconophile is not needed here. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

aged probably less than 30 suggest probably younger than 30.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

she was good at inspiring loyalty and leading, was surrounded by experienced and loyal officials and lacked obvious rivals suggest she led well and inspired loyalty, was surrounded by experienced officials, and had no obvious rivals

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The 855 Byzantine sack of the city Anazarbus in Cilicia largely put an end to Arab threats for the foreseeable future suggest The Byzantine sack of the city of Anazarbus in Cilicia largely ended the Arab threat for the near future.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

footsteps of Irene of Athens suggest footsteps of Empress Irene (I don't think "of Athens" is really needed, but it's up to you.

Yeah, "of Athens" is not necessary, just used it since that was the article title. Changed to your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After being angered at not being allowed to choose his own wife, Michael recalled Bardas (Theodora's brother) from exile and together they assassinated Theoktistos in November 855. Theodora raged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months and unable to placate his mother, Michael deposed her on 15 March 856 and became sole emperor. suggest Angered by Theodora's refusal to allow him to chose his own wife, Michael recalled her brother Bardas from exile, and with him assassinated Theoktistos in November 855. Theodora was enraged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months, before, unable to placate his mother, Michael deposed her on 15 March 856 and became sole emperor.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

She died shortly after Michael III was murdered and succeeded by his friend and co-emperor, Basil I. suggest removing and succeeded.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Background and early life[edit]

You may wish to drop the top-level section of "Biography" and bump everything under it up one; so that the four level-three headings are level two headings instead. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:44, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did this before but forgot to write that I had. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Selection and marriage[edit]

emperor Theophilos's step-mother Euphrosyne held a bride-show for the young emperor, suggest Euphrosyne, the step-mother of Emperor Theophilos, held a bride-show for the young emperor,

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"unfortunate way to engage a future wife's affections". Pretty hilarious; genuinely wonder how he thought that was going to go: "Your gender pretty much created evil." "You're so right, please marry me!"?

Re-reading the entire empress consort part, Theophilos does at times come off as bit of a bufoon. As pick up lines go this one is kind of a catastrophe, yes. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Activities as empress consort[edit]

Theodora was possessed by the wealth that came with her new status. went looking in the source (Garland) to see if this was paraphrased, which it is; I would recommend inserting this in quotes or otherwise attributing it to Garland, as it comes across as insulting. Best to clarify that the historians themselves are commenting such.

Outright deleted this, it's not necessary. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, Garland, Greenwalt, and Herrin all link to Archive.org books, which, although very helpful, can't be linked in article space because they're still in copyright (although I've stolen them for my increasing compilation of links of them; as a side note feel free to drop any links you have in there, I think a lot of the Roman/Byzantine editors use sources that can sometimes be hard to find). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:24, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Damn, four copyright violations in a single GA nom. Removed the links from all of them. I'll be sure to drop useful links at your compilation if any turn up :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The future emperor Michael III was the couple's youngest child this can probably be just Michael was the couple's youngest child as it is already mentioned he will be emperor.

Yeah, shortened. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

for the couple's daughters suggest for their daughters.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Euphrosyne, Theophilos's mother, suggest either removing Theophilos's mother, (my preference) or standardizing her mention to step-mother.

Removed "Theophilos's mother". Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

he might also have forced Euphrosyne to leave the monastery suggest removing he.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

aged probably less than 30 suggest probably younger than 30

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reign[edit]

capable both of inspiring loyalty in others and of leading suggest and was a capable leader who inspired loyalty.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Restoration of icon veneration[edit]

(Leo IV's wife and later empress regnant), suggest removing this.

Removed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign policy[edit]

which Theoktistos blamed on Bardas, succeeding in convincing Theodora to expel her brother from the court. somewhat confusing, suggest which Theoktistos blamed upon Bardas, and convinced Theodora to expel her brother from the court.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Boris I of Bulgaria began making threats towards the empire given that the Bulgarian treaty was once more about to expire. Boris was convinced to renew it without the need for military action. suggest Boris I of Bulgaria began making threats towards the empire as the Bulgarian treaty was once more about to expire, however, he was convinced to renew it without the need for military action.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

End of the regency[edit]

drinking and spending time with his mistress Eudokia Ingerina over matters of state should also throw in the possible propaganda disclaimer here. Perhaps something along the lines of: Michael III turned fifteen in 855, signalling that he was nearing the age when he would be able to rule in his own right. According to the tradition of Simeon Logothete, he took Eudokia Ingerina as a mistress, and later married him to his co-emperor Basil I, though this narrative is challenged. Symeon's neutrality is disputed, and other contemporary sources do not speak of this conspiracy, leading several prominent Byzantists, such as Ostrogorsky and Adontz to dismiss this narrative. Whatever the case, although Theodora's reign had been a highly successful one, both her and Theoktistos were dissatisfied with Michael III given that he preferred chariot racing, drinking and spending time with his alleged mistress Eudokia Ingerina over matters of state. (I believe everyone agrees that Eudoka Ingerina and Michael had been friends since childhood, it's just the dispute of a romantic relationship.

Done - also added a reference from your work on Constantine (son of Basil I). Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Theodora's exiled brother) suggest removing this as there is only one Bardas mentioned.

Removed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Theodora raged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months suggest Theodora was enraged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Later life and legacy[edit]

as well as his mistress (and Basil's wife) Eudokia Ingerina suggest as well as Eudokia Ingerina, allegedly Michael's mistress, now the wife of Basil,

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Notes[edit]

In reference to Eve. and In reference to the Virgin Mary. you may wish to include these in the body, such as "through a woman, evils came to man" (referring to Eve).

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: That is all my suggestions; once issues related to Eudokia Ingerina are dealt with I'll pass the article as GA. Great work as always. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:22, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: Thank you very much! I've addressed all the comments. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 31 October 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Theodora (empress) → Theodora (wife of Theophilos) – This article was moved without discussion in November 2021 and should be moved back. It is certainly not the primary topic for the subject, which would be Theodora (wife of Justinian I), if anything. St Anselm (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. "Theodora (empress)" should redirect to Theodora. —Srnec (talk) 19:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Theodora of Justinian is much better known. Walrasiad (talk) 19:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support not the only empress of that name, nor the best known. Constantine ✍ 15:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.