Talk:The Mothers of Invention

1964

I do not have the sources off-hand, but despite Frank’s recollections in his interviews, it’s likely that he joined the Soul Giants and reformed them into the Mothers in early 1965 (shortly after his March arrest) and not the oft-cited 1964. It should be noted that Frank often got years incorrect in interviews, such as his repeated assertion that the ‘’Freak Out!’’ album was recorded/released in 1965 (in actuality it was in the spring and summer of 1966). To further muddy the waters, he performed with an unrelated “power trio” known as ‘The Muthers’ throughout 1964.

The Mothers beyond Frank Zappa

I think I read somewhere that the band reformed with past members from each incarnation of the Mothers of Invention, but had to change their name due to legal pressure from Gail Zappa. Grandmothers? Someone verify. --Psycho78m 22:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The Grandmothers formed in 1980 around the nucleus of Jimmy Carl Black, Bunk Gardner & Don Preston. I can't find any evidence that they tried to market themselves under the name, "the Mothers of Invention" at all, although it was no secret that they were former members of the MOI. However, Gail Zappa did sue them over the fact that they were advertised in some clubs as "The Grandmothers of Invention." Rather than go to court the band dropped "of Invention."

• I'll remove the statement, until evidence is put forth (also the person inserting it, implicitly states that Zappa died in the period 1985-86, which is untrue)HJ 09:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the Grandmothers ever worked "for 5 years as a children's act," a patently ridiculous statement on the face of it.

Re: Gail Zappa: GZ has sued people in the past for "unauthorized" use of Frank Zappa's music and has engaged in battles with tribute bands. In 2004 she undertook a campaign against a Zappa tribute band called Project/Object, in which she phoned club owners who had booked Project/Object and threatened lawsuits if they let Project/Object play there. As a result Project/Object was deprived of a lot of work.

In my opinion Gail Zappa has done more harm to the Zappa legacy than good. She seems to have spent a considerable amount of money on lawsuits that are borderline frivolous (like her lawsuit against a Canadian furniture company that used a 10 sec. snippet of a Zappa guitar solo in one briefly run ad, a lawsuit that dragged on for years and netted her less than $100,000 by several reports). She also contributed heavily to Al Gore's losing presidential campaign, ironic considering that Frank Zappa's "The Mothers of Prevention" album targets Tipper Gore and the Parents Music Resource Center. (Happydog)

Ray Hunt, the billionaire?

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that the original guitarist of this band is the same billionaire Ray Hunt who is linked. I am changing the link, if anyone has documentation that I am wrong, please reinstate the link. TheGoblin 19:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Who is drummer John Swank?

Someone has put him in as drummer, and written a brief somewhat strange article about him; John Swank. Is he for real? Or is this just a joke? --HJ 21:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I did a Google search (here), and the only hits I found for a John Swank with any Zappa connection were a few mentions on a MySpace page for some biker/punkabilly type band. Whoever he is, he's been re-inserted into the article. And the explanation on the talk page for the John Swank article is intriguing. Could be for real, could be a joke. (I guess that's always a danger with anything Zappa-related.) MrBook 20:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The page John Swank is suggested for deletion. Even though the story indeed is intriguing, I think such "news out of the blue" require firm proof. I.e., someone gotta get the microfilm out of the library and onto the web for all to see. Otherwise, I am not convinced (also he is no longer called "drummer" here, but "percussive savant"). Let see what happens to the page.--HJ 21:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

No more page on "John Swank", so I have fired him from the Mothers in the main article.--HJ 23:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Omission of Alice Stuart as a past member of the Mothers of Invention

Alice was a member prior to the Mother's first album. See Alice's Wikipedia entry below: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Stuart — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:603:4B80:1BC4:61D9:8FCE:6DCC:4E89 (talk) 02:10, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

What to include in discography?

Anonymous user 148.244.235.250 removed several albums without comment from the discography. I have reverted the changes. I think the point of the removals has been to remove those albums which do not explicitly state "The Mothers" on the cover. For example, The Lost Episodes which nevertheless contains many tracks with line-ups that were known as "The Mothers". So a general discussion is in order: Should the discography only include albums where the name "The Mothers" (or "The Mothers of Invention") are explicit, or should it also include Frank Zappa works where line-ups are unmistakenly "The Mothers"?--HJ 06:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's my idea: it's a bit convoluted, but I think it's most likely to be accurate: any record by a line-up explicitly referred to as "The Mothers" or "The Mothers of Invention" should be considered a Mothers release, in addition to any release which does not explicitly refer to The Mothers by name but nonetheless features a line-up previously or subsequently described as a Mothers of Invention line-up. If that makes sense, heh. --Jacj 21:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact, if we wanted to get nitpicky, you could also differentiate between the two types of Mothers release with a symbol or something. --Jacj 22:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I had always thought that the discography was constructed as you suggest (e.g., 200 Motels is formally an FZ album, but a band sufficiently close to a Mothers version - except for bassist Martin Lickert- plays on it, so it should be listed here). Adding some symbol signalling "FZ release containing tracks with line-ups usually referred to as The Mothers " should be easy. It it gets an OK, I'll be willing to do it.--HJ 10:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Needs some editing and fact-checking here

In 1970, Zappa created a new incarnation of The Mothers which inlcuded only one other original Mothers member, Don Preston. This 'new' lineup also featured British-born drummer Aynsley Dunbar (ex-John Mayall's Bluesbreakers), multi-instrumentalist Ian Underwood (keyboards, guitar, woodwind, vocals) and Ruth Underwood (marimba, vibes), who had joined the original Mothers for the recording of Uncle Meat in 1969.

There are some problems with this. One - the first 1970 Mothers lineup did not include Don Preston. He didn't tour and perform with this version of the Mothers until 1971. Ian Underwood, on the other hand, WAS an "original" Mother of Invetion (he's on Uncle Meat and toured with the Mothers in 1968-69). Ian also doesn't play guitar on any Zappa / Mothers recordings, and didn't play guitar in concert (is he, in fact, a guitar player at all?) Ruth Underwood played some percussion parts on Uncle Meat and plays drum set with the orchestra in 200 Motels, but she otherwise did not tour / perform with the Mothers until 1972 (Grand Wazoo tour) and didn't record with Zappa / Mothers until 1973 (Overnite Sensation).

George Duke (keyboards, trombone, vocals) first performed with Zappa in 1970 on 200 Motels and subsequently became a key member of the Zappa's mid-70s touring bands. New Mothers members included Jim Pons (bass), Bob Harris (keyboards, vocals), vocalists Howard Kaylan and Mark Volman (aka "The Phlorescent Leech & Eddie", former members of '60s pop group The Turtles),

This much is correct, though I would note that Bob Harris didn't get drafted into the Mothers until spring 1971.

and Jeff Simmons (bass, ex-Captain Beefheart), who performed only on 200 Motels.

Simmons was NOT in Beefheart's band - he did have a solo album to his credit, produced by Zappa and released on FZ's Straight Records label and was, prior to being in the Mothers, in a band called Easy Chair in his native Seattle, but he did NOT play with Beefheart. Also, Simmons doesn't even appear or perform on or in 200 Motels. However, he plays bass on a good chunk of the Chunga's Revenge LP (his only album credit with Zappa, IIRC) and does backing vocals on that album as well. Manufactured to Comply 17:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Redaction of Trivia section

I included a trivia section related to the Mothers of Invention with a link to Deep Purple's song Smoke on the Water in which Frank Zappa and The Mothers were referenced. It was redacted the next day. I'm asking why?

Sorry, forgot to sign. Finrod61 02:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The editor who originally removed this stated his reason in the edit summary, "The info is already in the Frank Zappa article (also Trivia sections are discouraged)". I agreed with his reasoning so I removed it two more times. On a side note, when you readded the info the second time, you included the phrase "Beware of edit wars" in your edit summary which might be construed as disruptive. --Bongwarrior 09:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The meaning of the band name

According to the article, the name "The Mothers" is short for "motherfuckers". The reference cited is Frank Zappa's autobiography. From what I recall, Zappa says in the book that the record company simply THOUGHT that the name was slang for "motherfuckers". I don't think Zappa ever acknowledged that they were correct, but I could be wrong. I suggest redacting this until it can be verified.

--MRP 21:50, 13 April 2008

I can verify, in an interview on youtube he mentions the name standing for motherfuckers which is also a slang term for a person who is good at playing their instrument however as you mentioned the radio had a problem with this and thus necessity gave the mothers of invention , as he put it.

Rock and roll?

Mothers of Invention wasn't a rock and roll band, at least mainly. It should be put as experimental rock. 83.148.246.254 (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

File:The Mothers of Invention.png nominated for speedy Deletion

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Infobox photo

The photo in the infobox is of The Grandmothers, a Frank Zappa-Mothers of Invention spin-off, I feel is inappropriate. The article is about the Mothers of Invention, and contains no text sufficient even to move the photo down chronologically. The photos on the Wikipedia are there to reflect and enhance what is being said in the text of the article: WP:IMAGES. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 17:39, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking of this very subject recently, but I've found myself faced with even more time constraints than usual (you know, paying business and adventure calling and whatnot). Something tells me that there was someone out there determined to promote The Grandmothers, with no one yet objecting until now. Anyway, it looks like the original infobox photo was the photo of Zappa in Oslo in 1977, which was pulled because it depicted Zappa as a solo artist and not as a member of The Mothers. Looking at the Commons category, the best choices appear to be File:Frank Zappa Mothers of Invention 1971.JPG or File:Mothers of Invention Hoepla 1967.png. In choosing, what kind of swirling shitstorm would you start amongst the contingent who contend that anything following the 1969 breakup is really Zappa and not The Mothers?RadioKAOS (talk) 18:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

1976

In fact, Mothers of Invention disbanded in 1976, but not in 1975. Last of the group was as follows: Zappa-Murphy Brock-Estrada-Lewis and Bozzio. Source - FZ Chronology and Book of Neil Slaven.--Mmlov (talk) 20:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Eh, the lineup which dropped "Black Napkins"? If so, do we treat that as "The Mothers" or "Frank Zappa"? Or maybe at least acknowledge a transition there? I think this is along the same lines as the discography discussion above. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 07:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I propose to continue the discussion on this topic.--Mmlov (talk) 19:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Zappa's group continued to be explicitly billed as "The Mothers" until March 1976. At some point in 1976, he decided to rename his act to just "Zappa." The last records billed to the Mothers came out in 1975. Yspaddadenpenkawr (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

PAGE CLEAN UP

Today is April 6, 2016. I am going to clean up this page. There are many thing in the header that belong in the lower section -- below the TOC. If you have any input, please speak up. I will start in this weekend April 9, 2016. meatclerk (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Just curious. By cleaning up, do you mean mostly moving content out of the lead into the article? Or mostly removing content? - DVdm (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Timeline too small

Excellent to have a Mothers timeline, but at present it's too small and would need a wall-sized screen to be legible. Rothorpe (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

We have a timeline "template": <timeline>. It's used at The Beatles#Members. We could either use that, or perhaps enlarge the current jpg, like I just did as a test: [1]. Looks good to me, at least down there in the article. Higher up in the article it would be too large.

@Rothorpe and Pablo.rodas17: what do you think? - DVdm (talk) 08:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that's really good. Thanks! Rothorpe (talk) 14:27, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

alleged fight between Collins and Coronado

Ray Collins has clearly stated in interviews that there was no fight which led to Zappa joining the band. The source for this information comes only from Zappa, who was not a party to the fight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.126.89.172 (talk) 02:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

The Zappa vs The Mothers of invention lawsuit

(I did not intend to implicate with the title that Zappa vs The Mothers of invention is the official name of the case, I do not know what it goes by. That is a "To Do".

In January 1985 Don Preston, Jimmy Carl Black and John "Bunk" Gardner filed a class action suit against Zappa for not paying any of the Mothers royalties from 1969. In 1987 at least Ian Underwood joined the suit as a plaintiff, according to the next news excerpt here: http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/notes/1985.html

The current revision of The Old Masters https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Old_Masters&oldid=753357630 includes some other info about the lawsuit, with a reference. It claims the plaintiffs were later joined by Ray Collins, Art Tripp and Motorhead Sherwood.

This biography (by Eugene Chadbourne) of Jimmy Carl Black claims that the plaintiffs won, or maybe implies that there was a settlement favorable for the plaintiffs? - https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jimmy-carl-black-mn0000851533/biography

More info is needed, hopefully scans of official legal documents; but I do not know how to go about acquiring that ...

After there is a consistent story it should definitely go in the article, and also point to it from other pages, like Frank Zappa, Jimmy Carl Black, Don Preston, etc ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.61.139 (talk) 02:48, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

In a 1992 interview [0], Bunk Gardner answers "What is your current view of Frank Zappa?" with "It is the same one I had when he decided to end our association in October of 1969 which is disappointment, sadness, and finally anger at a man who preferred to pay lawyers (what should have been our record royalties) rather than the band members. We had to wait twenty-five years to get our money. I'm not at liberty to discuss any aspects of the lawsuit!".

This implies the lawsuit came to a close around 1992 and that the Mothers did get the money they were suing for. Considering the plaintiffs could not discuss the lawsuit, I guess they settled the lawsuit with FZ ... ?

[0] http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Interview_With_Bunk_Gardner,_92-11 213.149.61.139 (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually, it seems the settlement happened already by 1991, see "1991—The Mothers Of Invention settlement with FZ" in [1].

Thus; currently the conclusion is that Zappa failed to pay royalties to rest of the Mothers after 1969 for their records; in January 1985 Don Preston, Jimmy Carl Black and John "Bunk" Gardner filed a class action suit against Zappa; more of the Mothers joined the suit against Zappa in the following years; and the suit was finally settled in 1991 (or possibly 1990) with the Mothers getting money from Zappa, but not being allowed to discuss the terms of the settlement with the public. I think this is OK for putting in the article, but the references are going to be suboptimal.

[1] http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/notes/1991.html -- 213.149.61.113 (talk) 23:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I think in this case we need really optimal references, per wp:BLP. And besides, as JCB says in the last source, "And it's really nobody's business. Wasn't that much, let's put it that way." - DVdm (talk) 09:58, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

"Zappa's band" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Zappa's band. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 August 24#Zappa's band until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 23:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)