Talk:The Cry of Love Tour/Archive 1

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Infobox abbreviations & linking

CHICHI7YT changed "US" to "United States" and linked it and "Europe" to their WP articles.[1] This does not follow WP "generally accepted standards":

  • WP:Manual of Style/Abbreviations includes "For these commonly-referred-to entities, the full name does not need to be written out in full on first use, nor provided on first use in parentheses after the full name if written out ... US or U.S."
  • WP:Manual of Style/Linking includes "What generally should not be linked ... The names of subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar: This generally includes major examples of ... locations (e.g., Berlin; New York City, or just New York if the city context is already clear; London, if the context rules out London, Ontario; Japan, Brazil, Southeast Asia)" [emphasis added for examples of well-known countries].

Unless some overriding reason is given for not following the generally accepted standards, the earlier version will be restored.
—Ojorojo (talk) 13:41, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

31 August edits

CHICHI7YT: Why are your 31 August edits an improvement? You seem to be imposing your idea of what is the best table format. I see that you only made one minor edit to the article and only after it was nominated for GA, in which the infobox was changed from "U.S." (an allowable abbreviation by MOS:ACRO) to "United States" and was linked along with "Europe", contrary to WP:OVERLINK.

All the North American concerts were in the U.S., so why is the heading needed? Why does "United States" need to be spelled out? Most tables use "U.S." (allowed by MOS:ACRO). Linking common countries is considered WP:OVERLINK. Also, all the dates are in 1970, so why remove it from the column heading and add it for every date?

I also question why you decided to make these changes now. This was nominated for GA four months ago. The sensible way would have been to bring it up here on the talk page first. Your actions give the article the appearance of instability.

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:04, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry. I'll simply revert my edits then. CHICHI7YT (talk) 17:41, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
@CHICHI7YT: Thanks. Of course there's always room for improvement. I left out identifying "legs", because three reliable sources differ on what actually constituted the tour: just the U.S. dates or does it include the European dates. This is noted (and referenced) in the first footnote. Also, 37 was used as the total number, because the Leary benefit and the filming for Rainbow Bridge were more impromptu than scheduled (2nd & 3rd footnotes). Do these points need to be emphasized more?
The Forum is in Inglewood (which is actually more like surrounded by L.A., rather than near), but most people associate it with L.A. (Lakers, Kings, etc.). However, to be completely correct, I'll change it to Inglewood. I'm not sure about "West" Germany, though. I didn't see anything in a quick review of WP:Naming conventions (geographic names), but it does say "Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution." Do you have any more guidance on this? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:22, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
CHICHI7YT: Please note that this article has gone through a review process to become a WP "good article". If you feel there are errors or it could otherwise be improved, please bring them up here first. As you can see, the venue linking issue has already been addressed – it may save us all some time. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:25, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:The Cry of Love Tour/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zmbro (talk · contribs) 02:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Tomorrow :-) – zmbro (talk) 02:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Looks really good. Should be a GA in no time. – zmbro (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this on. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:52, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Lead and infobox

  • Was the tour in support of an album? Like Band of Gypsys?
  • This is not mentioned in any sources. Hendrix was never really committed to the BoG trio, which is why it was so easy for manager Michael Jeffery to fire Buddy Miles after their second (disastrous) gig. Hendrix publicly expressed dissatisfaction with the album and apparently was happy to move on and explore a new direction. Should this be added to "Background"? —Ojorojo (talk) 13:52, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Yeah I think it would be good to have. – zmbro (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Added in "Background" and "Repertoire". —Ojorojo (talk) 17:31, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Shouldn't it be "on April" and "on September"?
  • Changed. Other dates use "on", so they should be consistent. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:52, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Don't think "(in metropolitan Los Angeles)" is necessary
  • This was an attempt at a compromise. Most of the sources I use call it the "Los Angeles Forum", "L.A. Forum", or "The Forum, Los Angeles", which is what I originally used. However, two editors changed it to "Inglewood", which is technically correct and probably more encyclopedic. "in metropolitan" does introduce more detail to the lead than necessary, so I removed it, along with "an island off the Baltic coast of". —Ojorojo (talk) 13:52, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Makes sense. I'll add more comments tonight. – zmbro (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Added as efn; is there any easy way to re-order these without having to rename them all, so in the lead [d] doesn't come before [a], [b], and [c] (which appear first in the infobox)? —Ojorojo (talk) 17:31, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Actually not sure if there is. It's honestly not that big a deal (to me at least). – zmbro (talk) 22:36, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Left as is. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • In the infobox, since there were shows that were in both the US and Europe, shouldn't it say "32 in US" and "5 in Europe" with 37 total? I see other concert tour GAs do this so I'm jw.
  • I'd like to get your thoughts on the importance of all the geographical hierarchy/specificity in tour articles, especially in the tables. It's not the Olympics or World Cup. More under Concerts. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The rest of the lead looks good.

Background

  • Why was Mitchell replaced with Cox exactly?
  • I didn't mean to give this impression. Reworded – Miles replaced Mitchell. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • "with the Band of Gypsys album" → "with the subsequent Band of Gypsys album"
  • So in the second paragraph, which concert(s) are being discussed exactly? And so there was a backlash against big festivals like Woodstock? Just a little confused on that
  • Roby writes about the general turmoil spilling over to concerts at the time and specifically mentions Hendrix's concerts at Berkeley (May 30) and Randall's Island (July 17) and there were others. There didn't seem to be problems at Woodstock or Atlanta Pop. Although Hendrix didn't participate, the Festival Express (June–July 1970) was plagued by riots. I'll work on this. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I focused this more on Hendrix with specifics. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I know we had discussed this when writing his song page, but shouldn't there be a link to his potential fourth album page? Either here or where it's mentioned in the lead?
  • Linked, although it has a lot of problems, IMO. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Should you mention that Chandler produced AYE and Axis?
    Added. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Repertoire

  • Start this section with "Throughout the tour,..."
  • Nice, added. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Don't think you need the 'and' after the semicolon
  • Do the book sources give any specifics on how many times some songs were performed? Just to be a little more clear than "occasionally"? If not it's absolutely no big deal.
  • I hesitate to get too specific, because the set lists aren't complete for all the dates. But based on what's available, they total: "Straight Ahead/Pass It On" (5), "In from the Storm" (5), "Midnight Lightning" (3), and "Dolly Dagger" (2). Do you have a suggestion for the wording? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Since the setlists aren't for every date you can just leave it, it's no big deal. – zmbro (talk) 21:47, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • "performed on July 26, 1970, concert at" → "performed on the July 26 concert at" I don't think you need to say 1970 since at the top it states the only year the tour took place was 1970
  • Yes, fixed. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • "show on May 30, 1970, at" same as previous comment
  • Doing one last read through and quick question. In this section, "Foxy Lady" is used but the next "Foxey Lady" is used? I know this goes back to the more-complicated-than-it-should-be title thing but shouldn't it be consistent? – zmbro (talk) 14:55, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Changed to "Foxey", which is used by the McDermott & Moskowitz refs. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:25, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Films and albums

  • So everything in this section is covered by refs 49 & 50?
  • I'll add the right ones to each entry. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Also, so to be clear, everything in the first section is strictly related to performances from the tour while everything in the bottom section contains additional stuff along with the live stuff?
  • Yes, the entries in the first section contain recordings from one specific TCOL concert (Stages has one disc devoted to Atlanta) and those in the second have at least one from TCOL plus additional stuff from earlier tours or a mix of studio and live. I'll add refs for each entry. Should I identify the songs & concerts? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • It wouldn't hurt – zmbro (talk) 21:46, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Clarified wording & added inline citations. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Concerts

  • So most other tour GAs I see have the table heading that lists the continent but based on what you said on your talk page, most of those are now outdated and wrong?
  • I can't think of any good reasons to ignore the MOS on scope=row and no headers in the middle. So, if the MOS is followed, why is it important to identify the continent, either by separate tables or an additional column? Continents are not normally identified in music articles. Tables for record charts, release histories, etc., are arrangement alphabetically by country and not grouped according to continent. It looks strange to see a header for "North America" with "United States" as the only entry. If a tour shuttles between Australia, the US, and a few European countries, do we need to be reminded each time that they are in North America, Oceania, etc. (imagine what that article would look like by using separate tables instead of headers). It seems that editors are just mimicking what they have seen before without thinking if it is really useful or even sensible.
  • That said, I'm open to other opinions and approaches to the one "Location" column. The most obvious would be to separate "U.S." and "Europe" tables. Are separate columns for "Country" needed? —Ojorojo (talk) 20:11, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Honestly I don't think so, if you were to do that then it'd make more sense to just do the heading thing. so it's fine as is. – zmbro (talk) 14:48, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Before I saw your comment, I tried a test with two tables and a note in the infobox.[2] I don't think another column for countries is any benefit. I left as is (it's would be easy to change later if necessary). —Ojorojo (talk) 15:25, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Shouldn't the table heading say "support act(s)/event"?
  • Yes, added. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
  • "Vibratory Color Sound Experiement" Spelled wrong? Also should Rainbow Bridge be italicized?
  • Fiexed. According to MOS:TITLE#Neither, "There are cases in which the title should be in neither italics nor quotation marks (though many are capitalized): ... Exhibitions, concerts, and other events: the world's fairs, Expo 2010, Cannes Film Festival, Burning Man, Lollapalooza". This came up when album titles appear in tour titles (A Bigger Bang (concert tour), Bad (tour), etc.). I suppose it would also apply to film titles. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Put an en dash in the empty boxes
  • Done with a note at the bottom. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Notes

  • To me it'd make more sense to have "notes" be just efns and have a separate "references" section, with all the books under a bibliography sub-heading but that's just me.
  • Like this?[3] If subheadings are used, shouldn't there be more than one in a section? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
  • No location for Hendrix on Hendrix?
  • According to Template:Cite book#Parameters, "publication-place: Geographical place of publication; generally not wikilinked; omit when the name of the work includes the publication place; examples: The Boston Globe, The Times of India." It seems that Hendrix on Hendrix, Chicago Review Press (in Chicago) might be treated the same. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Final thoughts

  • General question but are there any pictures that could be added?
  • This came up recently. Since I don't know of any TCOL-period photos in the public domain, it seems they could only be added under a claim of being "irreplaceable historically significant". Since this article deals with the overall tour rather than a particular concert, justifying the right photo(s) would be difficult. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Zmbro: Added a photo unpublished elsewhere without any copyright markings (added to Commons as public domain). Not the best, but it's one of the few Cry of Love Tour photos that is arguably PD. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Rest looks great. Should be a GA in no time :-) – zmbro (talk) 02:38, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Everything looks good. Happy to ✓ Pass – zmbro (talk) 00:22, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
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