Talk:The Borgias (2011 TV series)

Italian or Spanish?

the borgia family was not an Italian dinasty but Spanish. They lived in Italy because of their power in the Vatican, but they were not Italians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.11.70.123 (talk • contribs) 05:59, 15 December 2010

I've rewritten the intro to note that they were an Italian dynasty of Spanish origin, rather than only mentioning Italy and not Spain or only Spain and not Italy. —Lowellian (reply) 23:33, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

 Fixed

Cesare and Juan

A quick note: Juan (Giovanni) Borgia was born two years before Cesare making him quite obviously the first born, not the second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.185.188 (talk) 15:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

In real-life, yes, but in the fictional continuity of this television series, Cesare is the older brother. —Lowellian (reply) 23:34, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The birthdates of both Cesare and Juan are disputed and evidence for them is scant. All that is firmly known is that they were both born between 1474 and 1476. Many assume that Cesare was the younger brother because he was a cleric, but what evidence there is suggests that Cesare was older than Juan, and went into the Church only because they had an older half-brother, the first Duke of Gandia. At the time of Gandia's death, Cesare was already a bishop and more useful to his father within the Church; hence Juan inherited the duchy. The series has taken a side in the debate, nothing more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahevekelly (talk • contribs) 15:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

missing character

Well, I think that there should be mentioned Ezio Auditore, he's quite an substantial figure in Borgia's history. 178.36.117.46 (talk) 21:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Nationality

Not sure why the nationality of this show keeps getting deleted, the source clearly states it's a Canadian-Hunagrian-Irish co-production. And WP:TVLEAD states "For television articles, the first paragraph should consist of basic information about the show, such as when the show first premiered, country, setting, genre(s), who created/developed the show, primary broadcasting station (typically the studio that produces the show), and when the show stopped airing." _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 19:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I changed it to what I was trying to get at, which is to say that television series do not have nationalities---their production team may be predominantly from one country or another but the series itself is no more Irish/Canadian/Hungarian than a shoe. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Off course television shows have a nationality, and so does a shoe, maybe a clearer comparison is beer, you have Irish beers, Belgian beers, etc. You might want to look over some other television show articles, they almost all start like: "[Show name] is a(n) [country] [genre] television series." _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 17:17, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps in those cases, but I would certainly disagree that merely having the director be Irish makes it an "Irish production" to any meaningful degree. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Historical Errors and Liberties

The series changes some historical facts: The Muslim prince Djem did not die while living with the Borgias and before the French invasion; in fact, he died in the custody of the French king, having been demanded and haded over as a hostage (it was rumored, without any tangible evidence, that he died from a slow-acting poison introduced by the Borgias). The French king did not enter Florence in broad daylight, but at night and lit by torches. Sussmanbern (talk) 16:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

You'll need some decent sources to make that claim, the source needs to specifically make those statements about the show, otherwise it's just original research. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 17:17, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

RE: << The series changes some historical facts: The Muslim prince Djem did not die while living with the Borgias and before the French invasion >> PROVE IT, Mister Man! : ) Codenamemary (talk) 18:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

@Sussmanbern the series seems very much along the lines of say the way Richard III is remembered, i.e. by the lies told by their enemies/those who succeeded them. The incest story was debunked yet you don't mention that. Lucretia has a miscarriage as her first pregnancy, her second marriage was very brief... Cesare murdering his brother is thought to be untrue as well... Amedeofelix (talk) 08:14, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

The TV programme errs when it makes Vanozza dei Cattanei, Pope Alexander's mistress and mother of Lucrezia, Cesare etc, of Spanish descent like her husband, and a humble courtesan. She was from a noble Italian family from Lombardy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.13.157 (talk) 15:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Alfonso of Naples was much older and died in a monastery in Sicily.--85.180.7.33 (talk) 16:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

A Very significant change of history/chronology -- in actual history Juan Borgia was killed in June 1497 -- very roughly about the time Season 1 of the series ended, but Season 23 has him still alive more than a year later when Lucrezia gives birth to her son (who was named Giovanni in honor of his deceased uncle). Sussmanbern (talk) 11:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe it would be useful to have a list in this category of major chronological liberties (Giovanni Sforza was not killed by Cesare, and in fact outlived him; Gandia was murdered more than a year before Savanarola was executed, &c)Sarahevekelly (talk) 10:32, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Main Cast

Should the "Main Cast" section really contain historical details of events which have not yet occured on screen (Colm Feore/Giuliano della Rovere entry)? Thelemur78 (talk) 05:49, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this entirely. Character descriptions in this section should be minimalist (viz. Lucrezia Borgia - Daughter of Alexander VI and Vanozza del Cattanei). I find it endlessly frustrating looking up shows to find out there premises only to be completely spoiled at the top of the page. Sarahevekelly (talk) 15:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

If your issue is with spoilers, you're going to continue to be frustrated by Wikipedia. Read WP:SPOILER and you'll find out why. Trut-h-urts man (talk) 18:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, the reasoning is specious. Wikipedia is a unique body of information by design, and its conventions shouldn't be blindly based on those of others. Thanks all the same for directing me to the page. Nevertheless, anything other than base character details belongs in the plot section of the page regardless of spoilers. Moreover, descriptions of all characters are largely based on editorialisation (Gandia is a coward &c), are uneven as a result, and should be revised on those grounds. I also think that both cast sections should give indicators - as with other pages about television shows - of which seasons the characters were/are in. It's a very Season One-oriented page as matters stand. Sarahevekelly (talk) 10:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Poisonings

In the current version of the article, there is a contradiction in the 'historical notes' section: it is written "There is no evidence that the Borgias resorted to poisoning...", and a few paragraphs below "The Borgias did murder a cardinal Orsini: it was Giambattista Orsini, poisoned in 1503 and not in 1492" Sergivs-en (talk) 07:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

The Borgias and The Tudors

The Borgias and The Tudors are two separate, independent shows that have absolutely nothing to do with each other. They were not made by the same creator, produced by the same production companies, nor do their stories intersect. The only thing they have in common is that they are historical fiction shows that air on Showtime. That does not make them in the same chronology. The Sopranos and Boardwalk Empire are both mob shows made by HBO, and even have a number of people that worked on both shows, yet they aren't listed as having the same chronology because they don't have the same chronology. Saying The Borgias is in the same chronology as The Tudor is not only original research, it is completely false and needs to be removed. 72.197.224.51 (talk) 20:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)