Talk:Swahili grammar

The reciprocal suffix

According to various scholarly sources (e.g. Fidèle Mpiranya: Swahili Grammar and Workbook), the reciprocal suffix in Swahili and other Bantu languages is -an- and not -ana. This is, for instance, clear from the present negative tense Hatupendani. I have changed the section on the reciprocal accordingly. Ernstvgr (talk) 12:30, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

While you are absolutely correct that this final -a disappears in some grammatical contexts (as indicated elsewhere in this article!) and many authors indicate derivational suffixes accordingly without this final ‑a, your edit only increased inconsistency within the article as it treated ‑an(a) differently from the other derivational suffixes such as ‑ish(a), all of which likewise contain this same final ‑a which disappears in certain grammatical contexts. These could very well be indicated as ‑an‑, ‑ish‑ etc., but consistency is key. If we describe the reciprocal suffix as ‑an‑, then for the sake of absolute consistency within this article, we should present all suffixes containing this disappearing ‑a without it and by extention also all verbs containing this final ‑a, such as ‑ogop‑ "be afraid (of)". Likewise, if we indicate the reciprocal suffix as ‑an(a), to highlight that the ‑a is sometimes present and sometimes absent, then for consistency's sake, other suffixes should also be indicated this way, such as ‑ish(a), as well as other verb stems that end in this disappearing ‑a: ‑ogop(a) "to be afraid (of)". Very few reference materials for Swahili give verb stems in any format other than ‑ogopa, showing the final ‑a; explanations elsewhere as to how this ‑a is handled in Swahili grammar are sufficient for the reader to be aware that it is replaced with ‑i in the present negative and with -e in the subjunctive, etc., with no exceptions. Throughout this article, the final -a is given in brackets within the morphemic breakdown in the gloss in order to make it clear, for example: wa-li-pig(a)-an(a).

Just in case there is any doubt that the disappearing ‑a is as integral to the reciprocal suffix as to the other suffixes, note that the reciprocal suffix is not simply a suffix that is inserted before a pre-existing disappearing ‑a but actively adds the disappearing ‑a when applied to verb stems that lack it. For example, the verb stem ‑tii "obey" does not contain the disappearing -a, but adding the reciprocal suffix, we do not get *-tiian or *‑tiani* but ‑tiiana. This is exactly as seen with other suffixes, such as -ish(a). For the sake of consistency within the article, I have reverted your edit and added a single explanatory sentence in the section on derived verbs to reinforce what has been explained elsewhere without the need for an entire overhaul of the article to consistently remove these disappearing ‑a suffixes from all citation forms: "All of these derivational suffixes, in turn, also contain the final -a, which is dropped when additional suffixes (both derivational and inflectional) are appended." --Janadume (talk) 15:40, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Class 11

It said class 11 (as class 14) was about abstract nouns. No. Both use prefix u-, ok, but thats it. Class 11 nouns have a plural in class 10. Class 14 have no plural. And class 11 are not abstract nouns. In fact, the example given was the word ufunguo, key!!!!

Let me copy from the article swahili, what it explains about class 11:

• Class 11 (which takes class 10 for the plural) are mostly nouns with an "extended outline shape", in either one dimension or two:
  • mass nouns that are generally localized rather than covering vast expanses: uji 'porridge', wali 'cooked rice'
  • broad: ukuta 'wall', ukucha 'fingernail', upande 'side' (≈ ubavu 'rib'), wavu 'net', wayo 'sole, footprint', ua 'fence, yard', uteo 'winnowing basket'
  • long: utambi 'wick', utepe 'stripe', uta 'bow', ubavu 'rib', ufa 'crack', unywele 'a hair'
    • from 'a hair', singulatives of nouns, which are often class 6 ('collectives') in the plural: unyoya 'a feather', uvumbi 'a grain of dust', ushanga 'a bead'.

So, not abstract nouns at all, but objects with an extended outline shape.

--77.75.179.1 (talk) 08:02, 5 June 2021 (UTC)