Talk:Stonewall Jackson's arm

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Pre-publishing discussion[edit]

@BusterD, Donner60, TwoScars, and Vami IV: - I'd recently told Mrs. HF the story of Stonewall Jackson's arm, and she asked me to write an article on the topic. I spent a couple hours this evening hammering out a brief article on this, as a bit of a counterpoint to Daniel Sickles's leg. It does give me some pause that in academic biographies of Jackson, this seems to be relegated to a footnote, and the coverage is mainly in magazines/periodicals. In addition to the sources cited in the article (Mackowski, Smith-Christmas [which is a reprint of an old Leatherneck article], and NPR), there's also a smattering of short news articles from 1998 when the NPS started making the site more accessible, the Atlantic EL, and an American Heritage article from '05 that's not very helpful as a source as it's more travelogue than detailed examination.

I personally think there's enough to warrant a separate article, but wanted to hear additional thoughts on this before moving it into mainspace. I won't be offended if it is decided that this is better handled as a paragraph at Ellwood Manor or Stonewall Jackson. And yes, I do have intentions of actually taking on something with more substance than this, Mansfield State Historic Site, or J. H. Hobart Ward, as I haven't really done much work on anything significant in months, just the micro topics. Just need to get back in the swing of things after a busy spell. Hog Farm Talk 05:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You've thus far found more sources for this than I have for the Great Hanging at Gainesville, so to me at least it seems notable. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:47, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Here are three sources; perhaps one of the four Chancellorsville books that I have might have something; I'll look later. 1. "The battle could not be followed from the field hospital, but its voice came in strongly - musketry and cannon fire, too. It was a clear, sunny Sunday morning, cool at first, until the dew disappeared. A fragrance of bloom of fruit trees hung in the air. The General had spent a restful night and took a meager breakfast, smiling. "I'm going to get well," he said. The doctors smiled too, even when beyond his sight.
"No one told the General of the little burial service in a near-by family graveyard, when his shattered arm was interred." * Davis, Burke. They Called Him Stonewall: A Life of Lt. General T. J. Jackson, C.S.A. New York (Fairfax Press), 1988. ISBN 978-0-517-66204-5. Page 436. First published New York: Rinehart, 1954.
2. In an appendix entitled "Other Lives, Other Destinies" under the entry for James Power Smith: "Jackson's young aide returned to Union Theological Seminary and was ordained a Presbyterian minister. He served as pastor at the Presbyterian church in Fredericksburg for twenty-three years. He later shared in the dedication of the large Jackson Monument in Richmond. He also dedicated a site on the Lacy farm near Chancellorsville, where the resourceful Tucker Lacy had buried Jackson's arm after it was amputated. (The 'grave" can be visited today)." Gwynne, S. C. Rebel Yell: The Violence, Passion and Redemption of Stonewall Jackson. New York: Scribner, a division of Simon & Schuster, Inc., 2014. ISBN 978-1-4516-7328-9. p. 568.
3. Chapter 24 Crossing the River p. 738 footnote 3, which is on p. 918 states in part "Later in the day, Chaplain Lacy found the amputated arm wrapped in a cloth and lying outside Jackson's tent. The chaplain buried it in the family cemetery of the J. Horace Lacy estate near the field hospital. B. Tucker Lacy Narrative, Box 20, Dabney SC." Dabney SHC is an abbreviation for Charles W. Dabney Papers, Southern Historical Collection, University of North Carolina. (defined on p. 763) Robertson, James I., Jr. Stonewall Jackson: The Man, The Soldier, The Legend. New York: Simon & Schuster Macmillan, 1997. ISBN 978-0-02-864685-5. p. 918. Donner60 (talk) 10:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much! I've got all three of those sources. Robertson doesn't have a whole lot, I used Gwynne, but I hadn't thought to consult Davis. Hog Farm Talk 16:03, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Jeff Shaara's book titled "Jeff Shaara's Civil War Battlefields" briefly discusses Jackson and his arm on pages 80 through 83. It is mostly what one can go see now (2006): the Lacy House (Light Horse Harry Lee lived there for a while!) and the Stonewall Jackson Shrine (that I believe was renamed "Stonewall Jackson Death Site" in 2019). The Eicher "Longest Night" mentions the incident in a page or two. TwoScars (talk) 22:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Perhaps you might want to add another citation or two and any further info gleaned from them, if there is any. This is from page 306 of Sears, Stephen W. Chancellorsville. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1996. ISBN 978-0-395-87744-9. "(The Reverend Lacy would supervise the burial of the amputated arm in the family graveyard at Ellwood, the nearby home of Lacy's brother.)" For a reason I can only guess at, Sears put the sentence in parenthesis.
The mention in Eicher, The Longest Night that is pointed out by TwoScars is from page 483: "Jackson was carried far westward to an aid station along the turnpike, where McGuire amputated his left arm, with a simple circular operation, the arm being buried nearby at Ellwood, the J. Horace Lacy House in the Wilderness owned by the same Confederate major - and friend of Jackson's - who occupied Chatham, a mansion at Falmouth."
I will leave it to you to decide whether and how to use these two sources. I will also mention here an entire book about the subject, which I do not have, but as to which there is an interesting note in a Mackowski and White book about Chancellorsville in general. Might the suggested reading book be a further reading reference for this article?
So I think this is of some interest on the overall subject. I would be surprised if the "Last Days" book which I do not have does not have some reference to the burial of the arm. The suggested reading on page 171 of Mackowski, Chris and Kristopher D. White. Chancellorsville and the High Tide of the Confederacy, May 1–4, 1863. El Dorado Hills, CA: Savas Beatie, LLC, 2014. ISBN 978-1-61121-281-5 describes their entire book on the wounding incident. (The Chancellorsville book has a chapter on Jackson's wounding but does not mention the burial of the amputated arm.) The suggested reading text is "The Last Days of Stonewall Jackson: The Mortal Wounding of the Confederacy's Greatest Icon by Chris Mackowski and Kristopher D. White. Savas Beatie, 2013 (ISBN 978-1611211594) The story of Stonewall Jackson's mortal wounding remains one of the most popular - and tantalizing of the war. While other recent scholarships has tried to debunk the well-established facts of the story. The Last Days of Stonewall Jackson relies on extensive research, knowledge of the terrain, and excellent storytelling to offer the definitive account of Jackson's wounding, death and memory, told by historians who have worked at the battlefield and the Stonewall Jackson Shrine." Donner60 (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Donner60: Thanks for looking into this! It doesn't look like Sears or Eicher has much to say about it that isn't in the article, although I'll probably dig out my copy of Eicher tomorrow and add the detail about Ellwood ownership. Looks like The Last Days of Stonewall Jackson should have some useful info (especially since Mackowski seems to have heavily researched this subject). I'll go ahead and remove the GAN, since that source would probably be needed. Worldcat says there's a publicly held copy in Joplin, and I'm over there a few times a year for work, so I'll try to access that copy later this year. Hog Farm Talk 03:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm, My university library has a copy- if you want, I would be happy to head over tomorrow and scan any relevant pages and send them to you via email. Eddie891 Talk Work 04:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddie891: - Yes, that would be very much appreciated. The drive to Joplin is not fun. I-44 is full of people driving like maniacs, and on three separate occasions last summer, the median was on fire when I drove by. Hog Farm Talk 04:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: @Eddie891: As info, excerpts from two comments about the book on Amazon show that the subject of the arm is covered in the book. So a look at it would appear to be useful. 1. "The vivid accounts of those closest to Jackson enable the reader to truly appreciate how this man's life and death came to affect so many people. I thought that Mackowski and White did a thorough job of answering the questions that readers would want to know. What happened to Jackson's horse? Where was Jackson's arm buried? What became of the people that were with Jackson in his last few days?" 2. "Jackson's death is not the end of this story but only the beginning. We attend funerals in Richmond and Lexington. The book follows the story of his horse Little Sorrel and the history of the building in which he died. They tell us how his arm came to be buried and why it is not with his body." Donner60 (talk) 05:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm, I've scanned a chapter about the arm. If you send me an email I can reply with the pdf. Eddie891 Talk Work 16:50, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Should be Yes Sent Eddie891 Talk Work 22:28, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 19:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Smith's marker for the arm
Smith's marker for the arm

Created by Hog Farm (talk). Self-nominated at 17:02, 4 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Stonewall Jackson's arm; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Hog Farm: Good article. AGF on offline sources though feel free to reply with the quote that verifies the hook if you feel like it. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

Passed. Eddie891 Talk Work 19:13, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Stonewall Jackson's arm/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Eddie891 (talk · contribs) 19:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):
    b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a. (reference section):
    b. (citations to reliable sources):
    c. (OR):
    d. (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a. (major aspects):
    b. (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):
    b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed) I can review this shortly. Eddie891 Talk Work 19:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm experimenting with making copyedits as I read rather than flagging every minor thing, if that works for you I'll probably just paste a diff here and ask you to check them over. Eddie891 Talk Work 21:28, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that'll definitely work for me. My copy-editing (and English grammar) are generally atrocious, courtesy of having been raised on a farm. Hog Farm Talk 00:34, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Digging through newspaper clippings,
  • this is probably not great for the history but could be used to cite the 90's work on the site. Here's another source, albeit from before the work was done [1] [2]
  • I read somewhere (of course can't track down the source now) that the tools used to amputate the leg were on display in the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond-- can that be verified?
  • I'm having trouble finding this, although what is believed to have been the tools was loaned to the NPS for a display in 2019, which I've added
  • Thanks for finding that! I've added a short bit based on that. Hog Farm Talk 23:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise I think this includes all (or at least reasonably most) relevant coverage. Eddie891 Talk Work 21:38, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could we break up the 'post-amputation history' section? It's a lot of content for a relatively short article, might better fit as several sections. Also, some of those paragraphs could maybe be split into two, though that's not as big of a deal. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've shuffled the headings around a bit
  • "While the story about Butler's visit is repeated on a historical marker near the site" Which visit, the first or the second?
  • Clarified
  • "Ellwood came under the control of the National Park Service (NPS)," Maybe add a date, if possible?
  • Done
  • You say that "the NPS had failed to find documentation supporting the story from before 1940"-- how do we know the story started circulating in the late 1930s, then?
  • This is unclear to me. The same source gives both dates. I think attributing the pre-1940 limit to the NPS is the best way around this, as the NPS may have only been considering certain types of evidence (print vs. oral?). Hog Farm Talk 02:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you attribute some of the "claims" and similar stuff in the article to specific people? (ie "although it has been claimed that it was added during the 1921 mock battle" or "Other markers placed by Smith at battlefields are "quite approximate in nature""
  • I've attributed these two as best as possible - the 1921 addition claim is attributed only to "legend" in the source, and the "quite approximate in nature" is attributed in the source vaguely to the NPS. No great attribution for most of the other ones, as much of the Butler story is vague urban legend that's been floating around to the extent that multiple sources feel the need to refute it
  • Consider whether the sentence "The marker has become a tourist attraction." could be better integrated-- it feels like a bit of a break from the surrounding sentences. I'm not sure though
  • I've put this into a new short paragraph with the 1998 renovations and the 2019 display of McGuire's surgical kit
Made some copyedits, feel free to rv any/all. Eddie891 Talk Work 20:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddie891: - Thanks for the review! I've attempted to address all of these, but may have missed something as I was trying to keep one of the cats off the keyboard the whole time I was addressing these. Hog Farm Talk 02:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie891 - Just letting you know that I think this is ready for a round of re-review. Hog Farm Talk 15:29, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, sorry, was out of town on a (very) long weekend. I'll try to take a look today or this weekend. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've checked some of the sources, everything lines up nicely, no indication of close paraphrasing or copyvio. Passing, sorry for the delay. Eddie891 Talk Work 19:12, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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