Talk:St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao

Article Origin

This article came into being as a result of research done in Qingdao, China, in January of 2010, specifically for the purposes of creating this article. Several visits to St. Michael's Cathedral resulted in the photos and information necessary to present this topic in a detailed and encyclopedic manner. The original author would like to thank all those who provided assistance. ɳoɍɑfʈ ^Talk! 06:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations on a nice article.--Charles (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Quote

It would help if it said whose opinion the quote under "Exterior and location" is.--Charles (talk) 10:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The quote has a reference. Do you mean it should begin with "According to Warner..."? ɳoɍɑfʈ ^Talk! 21:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, if Warner said it. As it is an offline reference we do not know whether it is Warner's opinion or his reporting of somebody else's opinion. As Wikipedia is for facts rather than opinion such quotes, when used, need to be clearly attributed.--Charles (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mephiston999 (talk) 20:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Lead

• the lead needs expansion to cover and summarize all aspects of the article.

the lead is still short, look at St Mary's Church, Nantwich for an idea of what I mean

I have expanded it again. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 02:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

It looks a lot better than at the beginning now. It could still do with some extra info from the SVD part in the history section.Mephiston999 (talk) 10:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done I think it's ok now, good work. Mephiston999 (talk) 14:41, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• change PRC in the infobox image caption to China

 Done Mephiston999 (talk) 00:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• The introduction names the building as a cathedral then states that "it is also the seat of the bishop...", which is the definition of the term "cathedral". It might be better to word it: "as a cathedral, it is the seat of the bishop..." user: kjotvi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.184.70 (talk) 01:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

History

• It is possible that the first Catholic church in Qingdao, built in 1902 on the same site was called St. Emil's Church. It is also possible that "Emil" is a mistranslation of "Michael," as both names can have two out of three Chinese characters in common ("mi" and "el"). needs reference

The first sentence doesn't need a reference, in my opinion, because it is not stating a fact, merely a possible explanation for where that name may have come from. The second sentence is a fact, but rather than a reference showing it to be true, I will include the Chinese characters themselves, in parentheses. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

is there a way to show that this idea is backed up by a researcher or academic?Mephiston999 (talk) 01:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

It is a fact that 2 of the 3 characters used are common to both names, as "Emil" in Chinese can be written as characters which are pronounced "A-MI-ER" and "Michael" can be written as characters which are pronounced "MI-KE-ER". I don't think that suggesting the possibility of confusion is original research. If you prefer, I can rewrite it to say "Michael and Emil have two out of three characters in common," and then leave it up to the imagination of the reader. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 02:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done Ok, then just leave it as it is. It just points out the coincidence I guess, I dont think it is considered original research in this case. Mephiston999 (talk) 10:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, in my opinion, it isn't a coincidence. I'm pretty sure there was never a St. Emil's Church in Qingdao. There are no records of SVD ever having a church named St. Emil's, and there's not even good evidence that a "St. Emil" actually exists. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Description

• I would suggest transforming the quote into prose, since it is actually bigger than the rest of the text in that sentence, and the whole article lacks a lot of prose.

It is a translation of a quote, and that translation took a lot of work to get, so I'm loathe just to make it into prose. Also, the entire passage is cited from a single source. If I turn it into prose, what should I do, insert a reference tag every other sentence for the entire thing? While I understand that stylistically it may read better as prose, I think the translation is compelling as a first-person account, and something would be lost by converting it to prose. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, lets leave the quote.Mephiston999 (talk) 23:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• All measurements in meters should have the equivalent in feet using the appropriate template.

 Done ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 23:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• link the 2008 Olympics to the relevant article.

 Done Mephiston999 (talk) 10:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• Father Fräbel's design was built under the tenure of Bishop Georg Weig, SVD, who is entombed in the cathedral. needs reference

Does it really? If so, my reference is going to be "Georg Weig's tombstone, St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao. I have a photograph of said tombstone, as well, if I need to post it. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 01:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

then it's ok...no ref needed if you have a picture to prove it.Mephiston999 (talk) 01:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Should I upload the photo? Maybe I'll do an article on the guy, and can include it there. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 01:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done As you prefer, maybe uploading the picture and creating the article isnt a bad idea.

Miscellaneous

• be consistent with the date format in the reference section.

 Done ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 22:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• add the coordinates at the top-right of the article using the appropriate template.

 Done ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• move the history section before the description section

 Done Mephiston999 (talk) 00:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• move the service section above the ordinaries section

 Done Mephiston999 (talk) 00:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• when you swap the history and description sections, also swap the side on which the images are, in order to have the first one on the left and the second one on the right

 Done Mephiston999 (talk) 00:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I shall add more comments as the ones I list are solved or at least commented. Mephiston999 (talk) 20:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The article now reflects all GA criteria, I will pass it.Mephiston999 (talk) 00:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

What else?

I think everything you raised has been dealt with one way or another. Are there any other improvements that are necessary? ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 20:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I would first like to congratulate you on an interesting and very well presented article. I do however have a suggestion. I could not find any direct link to Qingdao from the article itself. I think it would be a good idea to add it at the very beginning so that those of us who are not familiar with the city can immediately find it. You could simply write:

• St. Michael's Cathedral (Chinese: 圣彌格爾主教座堂) in Qingdao is a Roman Catholic cathedral, seat of the Diocese of Qingdao, Shandong, China.

And when I eventually found the article on Qingdao, I was surprised to find no reference to the cathedral except for an image titled "A church in Qingdao" (which is obviously the cathedral). I think it would be appropriate to mention the cathedral in the section of the Qingdao article on Culture. It certainly seems to be one of the architectural highlights of the city and one of the main contributions from the German period. But I would prefer to leave the wording to you. -- Ipigott (talk) 10:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

That's a good idea, thanks. I will fix it. That request for more suggestions was related to a good article nomination, which was successful. The article is currently a Featured Article Candidate, though, and you can leave comments at the candidacy talk page. I'd appreciate it if you went there, made any more comments that you may have, and then either support or oppose the nomination, as you see fit. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I had read all the comments on the FA nomination and it seems to me that everything is going very well. I just wanted to make these minor suggestions on the talk page and as I saw a What else?, I decided to put them there. Sorry if I caused any confusion. -- Ipigott (talk) 13:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyedit tweaks

I'm going to explain why I reverted a few of the copyedit changes.

• Steyl is in Holland, which is a region of the Netherlands
• I reverted "Civil War" back to "Civil War period" in two places because the focus is on the period, not the event. The war itself didn't exist in Qingdao for the entire war period.
• I reverted "The denunciation of anything Western as 'capitalist,' 'bourgeois' and representative of the 'imperialist world' reached a peak during the ideological extremism of the Korean War (1950–53) when the final vestiges of the Western economic and cultural presence were eradicated." to single quotes and no comma, for two reasons: (1) it is a direct quote, and that's how its written, and (2) Single quote marks should appear inside a sentence enclosed by double quote marks.
• We have some differences of opinion about which preposition is most appropriate. I've reverted a couple that I think work better. As this article has been through two peer reviews, there's consensus for those prepositions, if we want to get detailed about it.
• Other reverts were stylistic in nature. I think I've covered the most important, though. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 22:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Steyl is now Steyl-Tegelen. (See [1], [2], for example). Steyl-Tegelen is in the province of Limburg, which is not in the region known as Holland. I have made the necessary corrections. 75.2.209.226 (talk) 23:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It was in Holland in the late 1800's and early 1900's, and that's what the source says that is cited there. Reverting. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 23:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Neither Holland nor Limburg have changed locations since the late 19th century. Look at the maps:Holland, Limburg (Netherlands). They don't overlap. They're not even close to each other. You seem to be confused by the fact that the Netherlands has often been referred to as "Holland", so "Steyl, Holland" written years ago actually means "Steyl, Netherlands", not "Steyl, Holland region." 75.2.209.226 (talk) 00:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Why would I "seem to be confused" by that? Have I made statements that show I've been affected by the fact that the Netherlands has often been referred to as Holland? Have I called modern day Netherlands "Holland" by mistake? Stick to editing and give up the assumptions of other editors' motivations. You never assume good things, and you're wrong more often then you're right. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Article name

• Is there more than one cathedral in Qingdao? if not, is there any reason not to call it simply "Qingdao Cathedral"? HeartofaDog (talk) 10:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
• Generally on Wikipedia, we name articles with the names of the articles' subjects. The name of the cathedral is "St. Michael's Cathedral" so that's the name of the article. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Scarcely helpful. Many things - cathedrals among them - have more than one possible name. According to WP:EN the one to go for as the title is "the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language", and I'm not convinced that "St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao" is any commoner than "Qingdao Cathedral", which is shorter and equally accurate as long as there is not more than one cathedral in Qingdao and therefore a dab need: if there is, that would settle the question. Practice is divided on this, apparently mostly on national grounds, so there is room for a discussion, which needs to be settled before FA status. By the way, "generally on Wikipedia, we" try not to patronise each other.HeartofaDog (talk) 12:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't patronizing you. I was assuming good faith (I thought you didn't know the general naming convention). Would be nice if you could reciprocate that. Also, one should assume good faith even in the face of bad faith, so even if I was patronizing you, patronizing me back isn't the right choice. There are thirty-six sources in the article. More than half are English language sources. All of them--save two--refer to the cathedral as St. Michael's Cathedral. I have never seen nor heard the cathedral referred to as "Qingdao Cathedral." In fact, I have never seen any Roman Catholic cathedral referred to by the name of the city it is in. Probably because they all have names: not possible ones, actual ones. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 13:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Update: I found a couple, like Manila Cathedral, but the reason it is listed that way on Wikipedia is because it is what it is called in common parlance. St. Michael's Cathedral is called St. Michael's Cathedral in English common parlance. In Chinese common parlance, it is simply called "the Catholic Church." ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 13:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Your point about "common parlance" is really what's at issue, surely. There is no consistency in how either Wikipedia or the English language deals with referring to cathedrals, which is why I raised it as a question, not as a statement. But the argument "that's its actual name so that's what I'm calling it" doesn't apply to cathedrals, because there are several different valid ways to refer to a cathedral, and whether or not you've come across it, Qingdao Cathedral is a viable option.

It's observable that articles on European cathedrals tend to follow the pattern "Footown Cathedral", while articles on US and ex-colonial cathedrals tend to follow the pattern "St X's Cathedral, Footown" - there may or may not be a logical reason underlying that, and there are exceptions both ways round. It may be a UK/US thing. But as FA articles are supposed to be stable I'm drawing your attention to the fact, whether or not you accept it, that there's a possible query over the title of the article. I leave it to you what if anything you want to do about it, but suggest that you might defuse it simply by adding "Qingdao Cathedral" as an alt name in the intro. <end> HeartofaDog (talk) 14:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Why would you want to add an alternative name that is used by nobody? Doesn't make any sense. My argument isn't "that's its actual name so that's what I'm calling it." My argument is "that's its actual name AND is also what everyone calls it, so that's what I'm calling it." ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Well done for missing the point.HeartofaDog (talk) 16:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you very much. Can you make me a userbox that says "This user misses the point very well"? But to speak to your point (the one I've missed), what you're doing is essentially the same as showing up on the talk page of the Washington Monument and saying "Hey, is there more than one obelisk in the capitol? Why don't we call this 'Capitol Obelisk'? ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Can I just point out here that "we" (as in the world at large) understand that St Paul's Cathedral implies the Cathedral of London, not the Cathedral of Sao Paulo, and that it is always called "St Pauls'" not "London Cathedral". (For the information of those who are not British: There is no other cathedral in the City of London, the others are at Southwark and Westminster.) The Basilica of St John Lateran is never referred to as "Rome Cathedral", but that is what it is. And as for Notre Dame, we all know that means "Paris Cathedral", even though Chartres and Strasbourg and probably a good many others are also dedicated to "Our Lady". It seems that naming cathedrals according to their titular saint is not entirely limited to we Colonials around the edge of the Pacific.

HeartofaDog, Noraft is not the only person here who finds your statement about being "patronising" to be quite unnecessary and inappropriate. Please make allowance for the fact that different people may use language more or less formally, and that "We" doesn't necessarily imply the Royal plural. People who use it on Wikipedia may mean "Wikipedia editors in general", "We editors of this particular article", or "We boffins in this field, including the present writer". They might even mean "We, the congregation of St Michael's". Amandajm (talk) 10:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Bye the way...Congratulations! I am delighted to see this on the front page, after all your hard work! Amandajm (talk) 10:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 14:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Chinese text notice

Hello, is there a reason why the box that says "This article contains Chinese characters..." is below the cathedral infobox and not above it, as would seem the more logical position? LovesMacs (talk) 14:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I had it above, as per WP:LEAD. Someone moved it, and as I've already had this argument, I couldn't be arsed to move it back and argue about it again. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 14:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it was creating some problem with formatting, and causing the main box to overlay the text of the introduction. Amandajm (talk) 15:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Catholic?

Is it controlled by the Roman Catholic church or by the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association? From that article RCC is officially forbidden but most Chinese Catholics seem to be between both currents. --Error (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Every Catholic church in China is controlled by the CPCA. The current Bishop was recognized by the Vatican, though. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 23:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

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