Talk:Spaceflight before 1951

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Military history: Technology / British / European / World War II / Cold War

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Note[edit]

~~None of the lanches listed meet the inclusion criteria at WP:TLS.~~ --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 21:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Some of the newer ones do, but two or three do not~~. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 12:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 16:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

German flag for V-2 launches.[edit]

Whilst I acknowledge that post-war Germany was not directly involved in these launches, the rockets were of German origin, and therefore the German flag should appear next to them. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 19:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is totally inappropriate. Allied-occupied Germany had nothing to do with these rockets. That flag cannot be used here. Rmhermen (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where were these rockets designed and produced? --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 23:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly my point. They were not designed or produced in post-war Germany. Rmhermen (talk) 16:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They were designed and built in Germany. The year is irrelevant, it was still Germany. The flag at the time of launch should be used rather than the flag at the time of production, in order to avoid serious confusion elsewhere. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 18:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What was the citizenship status, at the time of the launches, of the experts conducting the launches? Were they not at that time citizens of Allied-occupied Germany? (sdsds - talk) 00:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The largest numbers would have been American servicemen, smaller numbers of American scientists, and a smaller yet number of Operation Paperclip personnel - some of whom were almost certainly American citizens by 1952 when the last launch happened. However the equipment was built by the Nazis with replacement parts and add-ons built by the U.S. - nothing to do with post-war Germany. Rmhermen (talk) 18:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was a German rocket, designed by German engineers. / would be acceptable to me as a compromise. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 23:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The post-war flag is what is wrong. They were not built by the post-war Germany. If it has to have a flag it should be the Nazi one. Rmhermen (talk) 03:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The flag of Germany had changed by then, so as I explained earlier, the flag of Germany at that time should be used. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 06:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At peak employment the Hermes II program employed 125 Germans, 30 Army officers, 400 enlisted personnel, 75-100 civil service personnel and 175 G.E. employees.^[1]Many parts arrived in poor condition.^[2] Many parts, especially guidance systems, had to be manufactured in the US.^[3]

Germany as it was at the time of launches had nothing to do with the rockets - it is far more than just a change in flags. So there is no reason to include its flag. Rmhermen (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Where would you propose to draw the line? Should current Soyuz launches display a Soviet flag? --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 15:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Current Soyuz capsules are made by the Russians - not using old Soviet material and Russia clearly has everything to do with the rockets, the personnel and the launches. Allied-controlled Germany had nothing to do with the V-2 launches - no government support, no industry involvement, no official personnel - no reason to use that flag. Rmhermen (talk) 17:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But it was the form, at that time, for the country of origin. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 20:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why German flag should be used at all? The rockets were property of the USA and the USSR and no inter-government agreement was in force between these countries and Germany. And of course, using German post-war flag is a nonsence, it makes false impression that the launches were in cooperation with post-war German government.--MathFacts (talk) 08:31, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn't. That flag is clearly indicated to refer to the country which designed and produced the rocket. It would be misleading to suggest that the V-2 was developed elsewhere. --G W… 08:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does. My first impression when I came to this article was that it intends to say the launches were in cooperation with post-war Germany.--MathFacts (talk) 08:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think you just misinterpreted the table. Out of interest, what would be your proposed "solution" this this? --G W… 09:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I prefere no to include German flag at all as the launches were not international projects. For example, USS DeKalb (ID-3010) is labelled with US flag, not German one (despite being constructed in Germany). Who made V-2 is well known and written in the respective article. But this list is not about rockets, it's about launches.--MathFacts (talk) 09:18, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That field is about the rocket. The nationality of the design is valid information. --G W… 12:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Totally Bogus! The inclusion of the German (Occupation Zone & West German) is totally wrong. It is an act of arrogance and ignorance. The Soviets used VERY few Germans in their first R-1 launches.^[4] By the time West Germany was freed from occupation there were no Germans involved in launching R-1s.^[5] The same is true of Project Hermes V-2s. The number of Germans employed in Launching V-2s at White Sands was 39 at the start and was reduced to zero by the Spring of 1947.^[6] The only V-2s that involved "Germans" in the design and modification work were the 4 Hermes II (Hermes B-1) failures (at least missile 2A didn't come apart the air [missile 0, the one that landed in Mexico, was less modified and carried an experiment called "Organ" instead of the "Ram" carried on the last three flights])). There was one other V-2 which carried a Hermes B related experiment, V-2 #44, which also carried a biological experiment for Harvard, a cosmic ray experiment for the NRl, and an atmosphere composition experiment for the Signal Corps Electronics Laboratory.^[7]

The placement of the Occupation and West German flags is bogus history and totally fraudulent. Allied Occupied Germany had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Project Hermes V-2s launched in the USA. The Federal Republic of Germany had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with the R-1s launched in the Soviet Union. Even the use of German prisoners by each country was very limited and soon done away with by the USA and CCCP. The Allied Occupation and Federal Republic of Germany flags are contrary to historic reality thus they should be removed.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 01:42, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Zucro,, M. J. (17 March 1950). Report on Survey of the National Ramjet Program. Panel on Propulsion and Fuels Committee on Guided Missile Research and Development Board. p. 4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)
^ Kennedy, Gregory P. (2009). The Rockets and Missiles of White Sands Proving Ground. Atglen, PA.: Schiffer Publishing, Ltd. pp. 34–36. ISBN 978-0-7643-3251-7. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
^ White,, L. D. (September 1952). Final Report,Project Hermes V-2 Missile Program. Schnectady, New York: Guided Missile Department, Aeronautic and Ordnance Systems Division, Defense Products Group, General Electric. p. 121-125.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)
^ Hartford,, James (2007). Sputnik and the Soviet Space Challenge. Gainesville, Florida: The University Press of Florida. pp. 80–81. ISBN 0-8130-2627-X.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)
^ Siddiqi,, Asif A. (2007). Sputnik and the Soviet Space Challenge. Gainesville, Florida: The University Press of Florida. pp. 80–82. ISBN 0-8130-2627-X.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)
^ White,, L. D. (September 1952). Final Report,Project Hermes V-2 Missile Program. Schnectady, New York: Guided Missile Department, Aeronautic and Ordnance Systems Division, Defense Products Group, General Electric. p. 44.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)
^ Kennedy, Gregory P. (2009). The Rockets and Missiles of White Sands Proving Ground. Atglen, PA.: Schiffer Publishing, Ltd. pp. 57, 160. ISBN 978-0-7643-3251-7. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Ma-333 ?[edit]

What is Ma-333 ?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.232.124.81 (talk • contribs) 09:13, 29 June 2009

The designation of that flight. --G W… 09:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the reason that the question was asked is that from the table you can easily get the impression that this launch had a payload called Ma-333. -- Nidator ^{T / C} 13:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A-4b(A-9)[edit]

Including of flights of A-4b(A-9) need.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.232.124.81 (talk • contribs) 09:13, 29 June 2009

No. They didn't reach space. --G W… 09:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wan Hu[edit]

TLS articles usually list all launches which were attempts to reach space, regargless of whether or not they successfully reached space. According to Chinese legend, Wan Hu unsuccessfully attempted to perform a spaceflight during the sixteenth century. I feel that some mention of this in the text section of this article (when one is written) would be appropriate, however I am unsure as to whether it should be included in the launch list. It is only a legend, and the rocket in question obviously had nowhere near enough power to reach space, however according to the legend, it was intended to reach space, which would qualify it for inclusion. Does anyone else have any input on this? --G W… 21:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wan Hu's not the only legendary character to attempt spaceflight. This article is clearly grounded in reality, and I wouldn't want to open that can of worms (better expanded upon in a general spaceflight article, not a list of actual spaceflights). --Neopeius (talk) 05:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (January 2018)[edit]

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A lead![edit]

This article finally has a proper lead! --Neopeius (talk) 05:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

Should there be individual citations for all the Soviet launches? Also, the link for this needs to be updated. --Neopeius (talk) 05:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Backfire apogee[edit]

The source uses the term Vertex height for these but I understand they are the same thing.©Geni (talk) 10:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

UK's First Subrorbital Flight?[edit]

Do we consider the Operation Backfire launches as the UK's first suborbital flight? Or do they not count because they were not UK-made rockets and/or not launched from the UK? --Ibemichael (talk) 02:01, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Zucro,, M. J. (17 March 1950). Report on Survey of the National Ramjet Program. Panel on Propulsion and Fuels Committee on Guided Missile Research and Development Board. p. 4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

[2] Kennedy, Gregory P. (2009). The Rockets and Missiles of White Sands Proving Ground. Atglen, PA.: Schiffer Publishing, Ltd. pp. 34–36. ISBN 978-0-7643-3251-7. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

[3] White,, L. D. (September 1952). Final Report,Project Hermes V-2 Missile Program. Schnectady, New York: Guided Missile Department, Aeronautic and Ordnance Systems Division, Defense Products Group, General Electric. p. 121-125.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

[4] Hartford,, James (2007). Sputnik and the Soviet Space Challenge. Gainesville, Florida: The University Press of Florida. pp. 80–81. ISBN 0-8130-2627-X.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

[5] Siddiqi,, Asif A. (2007). Sputnik and the Soviet Space Challenge. Gainesville, Florida: The University Press of Florida. pp. 80–82. ISBN 0-8130-2627-X.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

[6] White,, L. D. (September 1952). Final Report,Project Hermes V-2 Missile Program. Schnectady, New York: Guided Missile Department, Aeronautic and Ordnance Systems Division, Defense Products Group, General Electric. p. 44.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

[Kennedy_2009_27-7] Kennedy, Gregory P. (2009). The Rockets and Missiles of White Sands Proving Ground. Atglen, PA.: Schiffer Publishing, Ltd. pp. 57, 160. ISBN 978-0-7643-3251-7. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

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