Talk:Somaly Mam

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Early Life details and references

Basic facts, and their page references from Somaly Mam's book:
[All page numbers reference the 2008 English language edition.]

• From Somaly's words [page 2]: "I was born sometime around 1970 or 1971, when the Troubles began in Cambodia."
  
• Grandfather & his age (about 55) first explained: [page 8]
  
• Grandfather's abuse [page 14]: "Men hit more rarely, but when they do, it's more dangerous because they're so much stronger. I dreamed of killing Grandfather..."
  
• Regarding Grandfather [page 33]: (speaking with her adoptive mother) "...'perhaps it will be better with him [husband Than] than with your grandfather.' She and Father must have suspected how often I was beaten..."
  

Regarding "rape" — Editors' Contributions vs. Sources

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User:98.193.145.148 on 2October2010
[Boldface additions in response to this section:]

Essentially orphaned, Mam lived in the forest until a man picked her up and promised to find her mother. She became his slave. Mam was raped by the man until she was 13, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution.!!] <Correction> According to her book, "The Road To Lost Innocence"<c> 2005 Speigel & Grau, Somaly was not raped by "grandfather" but was sold to a merchant in her town for one experience when she was 13. Later, at age 14 "grandfather" sold her to a military man as his "wife" during which time she worked in a hospital as a nurse and was raped by the cheif [sic] doctor repeatedly. When her husband didn't return after a trip, "grandfather" returned and sold her into sexual slavery.

User:72.152.238.177 on 7October2010
[middle edits - same as 74.x below]

[First edit]Mam was raped by her "grandfather" until she was 14, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution. She was also forced to marry a stranger. Her husband was a fighter in the Khmer Rouge. Mam experienced violent beatings from her husband. <ref name="book1"/>{{rp|34}} Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in late 1980's and she was 15 years old.> <ref> http://www.thestandard.com.hk/weekend_news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=5939&sid=5471082&con_type=3&d_str=20051119</ref> She had five or six clients per day. <ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article596932.ece |title=A Life in the Day: Somaly Mam|publisher=The Sunday Times (U.K.) |date=December 4, 2005 |accessdate=October 7, 2010}}</ref>[etc...]

User:74.232.4.62 on 20October2010
[most recent edits/restored text, includes:]

Mam was raped by her "grandfather" until she was 14, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution. She was also forced to marry a stranger. Her husband was a fighter in the Khmer Rouge. Mam experienced violent beatings from her husband. <ref name="book1"/>{{rp|34}} Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in late 1980's and she was 15 years old. <ref>http://www.thestandard.com.hk/weekend_news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=5939&sid=5471082&con_type=3&d_str=20051119</ref> She had five or six clients per day.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article596932.ece|title=A Life in the Day: Somaly Mam|publisher=The Sunday Times (U.K.) |date=December 4, 2005 |accessdate=October 7, 2010}}</ref> [etc...]

I have to take issue with some of User:72.x/74.x's statements: First, regarding "raped by her Grandfather" is not supported by any source.

Look at two professional reviews:

From Booklist magazine (the journal of the ALA):

"Sold into slavery as a young girl—first as an indentured servant to a surly, violent older man, then, at 16, to a brothel—..." —Emily Cook

Publishers Weekly wrote in September 2008:

"...a 55-year-old stranger claims he will take her to her missing family. Grandfather beats and abuses the nine-year-old Mam and sells her virginity to a Chinese merchant to cover a gambling debt. She is subsequently sold into a brothel in Phnom Penh..."

Neither of these notable sources inferred from the text that Grandfather ever raped Somaly Mam. Abused, yes, raped, no. Be careful with accusatory language. Especially since in the Acknowledgements of her book [page 192], Mam thanks "...Alain Carrière, my French publisher, whom I view as an adoptive grandfather...".

Other than the beatings, Mam only states [page 23]:

"My breasts were growing, and Grandfather began touching them. He would roll heavily across the sleeping pallet at night and I would feel his hands on me. When he did this I ran..."

The first mention of "rape" in Mam's book is page 25 (talking about the Chinese merchant) and page 38 (talking about the doctors raping her). Then not again until page 59 referring to "men in Cambodia".

Another problematic phrasing by User:72.x/74.x: "Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in the late 1980's and she was 15 years old." No, the cited article does NOT say this. Merely that her first husband sold her to a brothel in the late 1980's. No mention of her age. She would have been almost twenty then. But the book does not support either sentence. It was her Grandfather who returned to sell her to the brothel after her marriage, while her husband was away fighting with the Khmer Rouge. Reporters often get things wrong, and the Chinese Standard reporter messed this one up, and the Wiki editor had no business adding an unsourced age to it.

The next paragraph, "She saw her best friend shot by her pimp..." should say "a pimp", as the article makes no specific mention of whose pimp it was. Again, beware of making Original Research conclusions. Don't misquote or misinterpret the sources!

— DennisDallas (talk) 14:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

AFESIP acronym

AFESIP - the French acronym for Agir pour les Femmes en Situation Precaire is properly (and officially) translated as Acting for Women in Precarious Situations. [per www.AFESIP.org website]

In 2005-era news articles, and in the 2008 book edition (as well as the original Wikipedia version), the word "Circumstances" appeared instead of "Situations". The editor making the current change did not cite a source. — DennisDallas (talk) 15:33, 23 October 2010 (UTC) & 17:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Further questions about Mam's claims

According to Cambodia Daily, Mam is said to have claimed that her daughter was kidnapped and abused as retaliation against her work. Her ex-husband disputes this, saying that the daughter was not kidnapped, but had differences with Mam and left home to live with a boyfriend in a different city:

http://www.camnet.com.kh/cambodia.daily/selected_features/Apr_12/More%20Questions%20Over%20Somaly%20Mam%27s%20Kidnapping%20Claim.htm

While nothing so far either way has been included about this incident in the article, if it is to be included, it should be noted that Mam's version of the events is disputed.

I'll also note that Mam has come in for considerable criticism by opponents of "raid and rescue" tactics toward sex workers, and that where these criticisms are published in verifiable sources, they should be reported in an NPOV manner as part of this article. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

There are now further questions about her work (see: http://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/secrets-and-lies-44964/ ), so this page will need some updating. Currently it reads like a hagiography. Haminoon (talk) 03:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

There are now various articles published by the Cambodia Daily that seem to establish Somaly Mam's book is a fairy tale. Her ex-husband confirms that she's a great actress. El Mundo and various Spanish dailies have based various articles on the ones of the Cambodia Daily and got no answers. I have contacted the Estée Lauder press officers in France and got no answer so far. What is more difficult to swallow is that the Cambodia Daily tried to see the balance between exapanses and resources of the Foundation. Which seem to employ relatives who do not act quite as expected of such an ONG.

May 2014 revelations

As a result of a Newsweek article showing that Mam's claims of being a victim of abuse and sex trafficking were lies, Mam resigned from the Somaly Mam Foundation.

Somaly Mam: The Holy Saint (and Sinner) of Sex Trafficking, http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/30/somaly-mam-holy-saint-and-sinner-sex-trafficking-251642.html

Crusader Against Sex Trafficking Quits Amid Charges Stories Were Fabricated, http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/30/world/asia/anti-trafficking-activist-quits-amid-charges-stories-were-fabricated.html

64.134.240.111 (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

investigation by Goodwin Procter

The foundation said Somaly Mam resigned following an investigation by U.S. law firm Goodwin Procter, which looked into her personal history and the background of a victim of trafficking whose story the foundation used to publicise its work.

"As a result of Goodwin Procter's efforts, we have accepted Somaly's resignation effective immediately," Gina Reiss-Wilchins, executive director of the Somaly Mam Foundation, said in a statement.'

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/29/uk-cambodia-activist-idUKKBN0E917C20140529

64.134.240.111 (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Goodwin Procter 64.134.240.111 (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Other articles

Cambodian Hero and Socialite “Fabricated” Sex Trafficking Stories, The Diplomat, http://thediplomat.com/2013/10/cambodian-hero-and-socialite-fabricated-sex-trafficking-stories/

Somaly Mam Admits to Inaccuracies in Speech to UN, The Cambodia Daily, http://www.cambodiadaily.com/archives/somaly-mam-admits-to-inaccuracies-in-speech-to-un-1590/

Somaly Mam Resigns Following Articles Exposing Fabrications, http://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/somaly-mam-resigns-following-articles-exposing-fabrications-59976/

More Questions Over Somaly Mam’s Kidnapping Claim, http://www.cambodiadaily.com/archives/more-questions-over-somaly-mams-kidnapping-claim-1592/

64.134.240.111 (talk) 20:21, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Greg Mortenson and Somaly Mam see-also link

Here is a good question: Is having a see-also link between two articles a coat rack? Greg Mortenson and Somaly Mam both are accused of fabricating portions of their biographies to enhance their charities. Is having a see-also link between the two a coat rack? Come to Talk:Greg Mortenson and join the discussion one way or the other. Would your average reader want to jump between the two articles based on that connection. If you are reading about someone accused of fabrication of a significant event that got them starting a charity, would you want to read about someone else in the same situation? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

RfC: see-also link to Greg Mortenson

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the "see-also" section contain a link to Greg Mortenson with the text "also accused of fabricating portions of his biography to enhance his charity"? One person deleted it saying it was "unrelated" and a second deleted it saying it was "undue". Both biographies have large sections covering the fabrications. When I was reading her article, I was thinking "who was that other guy in the same situation, the mountain climbing guy." I think other readers are thinking the same thing and should be able to switch between the two. What do you think? Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• Include. I brought the RFC. I think the connection is well documented. Both have been accused of fabricating portions of their biographies to enhance their charities. This is not the equivalent of adding a link to "Charles Manson" and "Hitler" to someone's biography and saying "see, he is as evil as Charles Manson and Hitler". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
• Do not include. I think this is why I hate the See also section. ok, my bias is exposed. --Malerooster (talk) 01:45, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

You are not alone in disliking it, especially if the links seem arbitrary. "See also" sections will hold articles back from promotion to good and featured. Jonathunder (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

• Include I am sometimes uncomfortable with such links and have reverted a few when the connection was tenuous. However, WP:ALSO says "The links in the 'See also' section do not have to be directly related to the topic of the article because one purpose of 'See also' links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics." I was already familiar with the Mortenson situation. After reading this article and a couple of recent news articles including the one in Newsweek, I think the similarities are great enough that including the link is justified. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
• Do not include. If there is no actual connection between the two individuals than adding Mortenson to Mam's See also section can be misleading. I also do not believe that we should categorize people simply due to accusations. Fraulein451 (talk) 20:55, 03 August 2014 (UTC)
• Do not include per Wikipedia:BLPSEEALSO. Jonathunder (talk) 03:36, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
• Include, if it's covered in depth in biographies of his it is justified that it be covered to some extent in his wikipedia article. 'I don't like it' is not a valid reason for removing material. AlanS (talk) 07:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
• Do not include. WP:BLPSEEALSO says that "See also" links should not be used to imply any contentious categorization or claim about a living person. I think in this case the coincidental similarity is too tenuous to override the potential BLP concerns. gobonobo ^{+ c} 00:20, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Somaly Mam's response to the allegations and Marie Claire article

Given that Somaly Mam has now responded to the allegations of fabrication that were made against her by the Newsweek article and the Somaly Mam Foundation, do you guys think that this article should adopt a more neutral stance by presenting both sides of the argument instead of condemning her outright? [1] [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.74.212 (talk) 19:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

If something is inaccurate, please fix it.

If there are specific parts (specific sentences) that you think need to be fixed but you don't or can't fix them yourself, can you indicate those sentences here so that someone else can look to fix them? Thanks. Gronky (talk) 13:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Every section of this article is entirely biased against Somaly Mam:

• It exaggerates the claims of the Newsweek article and assumes that it is unchallenged.
• It ignores the Marie Claire investigation into Newsweek's poor journalistic practices and false claims.
• It does not mention anything Somaly Mam did to tackle sex trafficking or help the victims.

If one read this article, the only information here is about how Somaly Mam was a proven liar, when according to State Department reports, sex trafficking and underage prostitution is rife across Cambodia. Is it possible that men who visit Cambodia go on to edit this page? Highly likely! Pedophilia networks exist to lure children and hide their tracks. We should investigate people editing this page. What other damage are they doing? 104.237.54.139 (talk) 08:12, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Your two points aren't mutually exclusive. Both can be true, i.e. Somaly Mam is a proven liar AND sex trafficking and underage prostitution are major issues in Cambodia. The fact that one person is a proven liar has nothing to do with the existing sex trafficking and underage prostitution problems. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for advocacy; we compile "what is", not "what we wish would be". That having been said, as Gronky pointed out above if something is inaccurate, fix it (and provide reliable sources of course). If you're passionate about this topic, perhaps instead of focusing your efforts on one problematic person, you might want to help improve our article specifically about the issue at Prostitution in Cambodia.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 09:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I've read both articles, and the current article is not about "what is" or the facts. Mam is not proven to be anything. Her book is not proven, but neither are the allegations of her detractors. My "passion" does not come into it, I've nothing do do with Somaly Mam. It's not about prostitution, because children (sold or kidnapped) don't agree to be prostituted. I think it needs to be discussed first, so objectivity is the goal. The bias in the article is palpable, so how did it get there? How can it be kept out? 180.150.134.149 (talk) 12:22, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I have made a range of edits to the article. Firstly, there is Mam's story. Secondly, there are the allegations by Cambodia Daily/Newsweek that this story is untrue. Thirdly, there is the Marie Claire article saying Newsweek was careless in its reporting. There are several points to note:

• With Mam not admitting anything and Marie Claire investigation, words indicating Newsweek proved its allegations have been removed.
• there's some dramatic wording to highlight the 'fall' of Somaly Mam. These have been converted to neutral language.
• The New York Times is used as a key primary source, when it is only repeating what Newsweek reported.
• There is a bit where Cambodia Daily gets a "credit" from the New York times. The NYT did not praise Cambodia Daily, but if it did it is irrelevant to Somaly Mam.
• None of the specific allegations by Cambodia Daily or Newsweek have been removed. The detail should all be there.
• The positive side to Mam's story has not been increased, except to quote the foundation's attitude at her resignation.

17:50, 19 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.150.134.149 (talk)

Discussion elsewhere

This topic was also discussed at two other pages: Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 119#Somaly Mam, character assasination of an anti-sex slavery advocate and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive217#Somaly Mam Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Somaly Mam Foundation article

If anyone thinks there is anything salvagable from the deleted foundation article that can be merged into this article the archive is here. Although most of the article is advertising with some weak criticism at the end. -- haminoon (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

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Blacklisted Links Found on Somaly Mam

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Baffler on Somaly Mam PR Offensive

I don't see any reference to this in the article, but it seems Somaly Mam and her handlers undertook a paid PR offensive in late 2014, one offshoot of which was the Marie Claire article supposedly rebutting the Newsweek article:

The Baffler: The Return of America’s Favorite Anti-Trafficker

Considering that this article was heavily edited at one point based on this "rebuttal", I think some revision is in order. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)