Talk:Somalis in Denmark

deregotry racist and blantantly racist lead

As per WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, a handful of somalis getting deported or comitting crime or reportedly trying to join some political militant group(s) is news fodder. It hardly encapsulates the community at large - "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion." Wikinews is there for that. their is no need to discuss such leads in the article at the beginning as ethnic groups from norway dont have such a deregotory lead i have also classed this article as high importance for other users to come and have a look at sucha deregotory lead about deported somalis who are no longer in norway and information about cirme which has nothing to do with overall socio ecnomiocs like job work salary social benefits etc their is no need for a lead about individuals living in a parallel universe or individuals already deported from denmark nor do we specifically need to have crime in the article when their is already a page dedicated to it other ethnic groups do not have this in their bios no need for somalis in denmark to have an entire section dedicated to crime Can this article stay on topic and no need to mention people who lost their residents or references to people living in a parallel universe this is about Somalis in Denmark not another universe nor do we need to know about individuals deported from the country we just need information regarding somalis currently living in denmark--Sahasu (talk) 14:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Penal code

The claim that in 2012 1 in 10 Somali citizens in resident in Denmark were convicted for a violation of the Danish penal code is false. The table where these figures were taken from is labeled "Fældende afgørelser for overtrædelse af straffelo-ven fordelt på udvalgte grupper af statsborgere", which per Google Translate means that it pertains to "violent decisions for violation of criminal law" [1]. According to Statistics Denmark’s classification system, crimes of violence are actually just one of various subtypes of penal code violations; the penal code offences are themselves also just one of three types of criminal offences, with the other two being special laws and traffic law offences-- “The criminal offences are divided into the penal code, the road traffic act and special law/legislation. The penal code is furthermore divided into four subgroups: Sexual offences, Crimes of violence, Offences against property and Other offences. The most special laws/legislation are referred to as single acts, while the rest are categorised as 'Other special laws/legislations.” [2]. Per Statistics Denmark’s official figures, among Somalis, special laws offences were/are the most common type of criminal offences, not penal code breaches; further, the most common subtype of penal code offences were/are crimes against property, not crimes of violence [3]. Ergo, the material is both inaccurate and undue weight. Soupforone (talk) 17:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

The information in the source says that Somalis are 10x over-represented as perpetrators of violations against Straffeloven compared to Danes and about 2x compared to citizens of other countries. Citizens of other countries than Denmark and Somalia are 5x over-represented compared to Danes. The statistic are due weight since as a political issue it has been debated in parliament. How is an issue debated in Danish Parliament (da: Folketinget) not weighty? 1Kwords (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually, according to Statistics Denmark, in 2012 the five most common countries of origin for foreign-born persons found guilty of crimes in Denmark were Turkey (4,474), Lebanon (2,289), Iraq (1,827), Pakistan (1,557), and Yugoslavia (1,344). As of 2016, the five most common countries of origin for foreign-born persons found guilty of crimes in Denmark are Turkey (4,084), Lebanon (2,528), Iraq (1,896), Pakistan (1,477), and Poland (1,348) [4]. Soupforone (talk) 04:49, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Prevalence and over-representation are two different to measure. One does not exclude the other. 1Kwords (talk) 10:49, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

It applies to both absolute and proportionate representation, as the population by country of origin is also available [5]. Soupforone (talk) 17:40, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Edit summaries

Soupforone, please stop making +1 edits such as this one, as the Watchlist feature of ENWP only shows the latest edit. I am sure we can make a mutually satisfactory arrangement on our respective edit comments & style. Thanks 1Kwords (talk) 10:41, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

There is no policy against "+1 edits". On the other hand, WP:ESDONTS does stipulate that one should avoid making personal or snide remarks in edit summaries ("don't... make snide comments... make personal remarks about editors... be aggressive"). Soupforone (talk) 17:40, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Euphoriant

The term euphoriant, while correct, is esoteric. How does the article explain what "Euphirants Act" means? 1Kwords (talk) 10:42, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Euphoriants Act is a proper name. Proper names don't require explaining; they just have to be capitalized per MOS:NAMECAPS ("proper names of specific places, persons, terms, etc. are capitalized in accordance with standard usage"). Soupforone (talk) 17:40, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

recent removal of WP:RS information

Sahasu, per WP:BRD you are required to discuss your edits when you are reverted before reintroducing them. Per this edit of yours, the information is sourced to WP:RS and you have shown no policy which supports your deletions, only arguments along the lines of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. A Thousand Words (talk) 06:19, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

why does somalis in Denmark have to have such inflammatory leads about deported individuals no longer in Norway or references to fraud i dont see any of this in the wiki pages of other ethnic groups also As per WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, a handful of men getting deported committing crime or reportedly meeting to join some political militant group(s) is news fodder. It hardly encapsulates the community at large - "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion." Wikinews is there for that. The macro here is that some individuals committed fraud or some individuals got deported who are no longer in the country and how does deported individuals represent Danish Somalis living their today also this isnt realy how a lead should be written please take inspiration from somaalis in the united kingdom page or Somali Americans page it doesnt matter if any of it is true should we document every single individual person who has committed a crime and who happens to belong to a ethnic group and put that in the lead of all ethnic groups should we have nazi death camps in the lead of the germen ethnic group should we also have osama bin laden and isis in the lead to a saudi ethnic group page or an arab ethnic group page or every single rape committed by a white person to be on the lead of all major European ethnic group pages i think not Please do not revert and let's keep this in the talk page--Sahasu (talk) 16:46, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD you are required to discuss and achieve WP:CONSENSUS before reinserting your edits or deleting material. A Thousand Words (talk) 19:09, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I have added most of the iformation back as discussed in the talk page Sahasu (talk) 01:12, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

I have added most of the iformation back as discussed in the talk page Sahasu (talk) 01:12, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

The edits by blocked user Sahasu have been reverted on the basis of WP:PRESERVE of WP:RS information. Sahasu's WP:BOLD edits should have been discussed before being reinserted into the article per WP:BRD. A Thousand Words (talk) 07:14, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Negative information included for no reason

The Somalis in Finland article is a perfect example of a well written Somali diaspora article. It does not include information on unemployment, khat usage or crime. This article however, is written in a negative tone and gives readers a negative view of Somalis. My cleaned up version of this article simply removes this negative tone. MacrobianPrince (talk) 12:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with MacrobianPrince that the tone of the article seems very negative. Even though the individual statements may be correctly sourced, they give an impression of having been systematically chosen to form an over-all negative picture of the group in question. A more neutral approach would be preferable. --Økonom (talk) 17:17, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I cannot find any information on crime in Dutch people in Finland, and surely there were Dutch Americans who were criminals. 1Kwords, here is your opportunity to explain the slant in this article. Drmies (talk) 17:27, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

The article was close to a stub right before 1Kwords started editing it. The very first thing 1K inserted was the Crime Index of Somali Males. I'd be rather tempted to roll the entire article back to that. The NPOV offense is great. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 21:26, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Jpgordon's suggestion sounds like an improvement to the article. Then afterwards the demographic section and other neutral stuff could be updated or added to the text. Økonom (talk) 07:20, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

MacrobianPrince statement "included for no reason" does not accurately represent available sourcing. Statistics Denmark PDF report on 2017 concludes on page 110 top paragraph entitled Mandlige efterkommere fra Somalia og Libanon har de højeste voldsindeks that Som også tidligere vist har efterkommere fra Somalia og Libanon de højeste kriminalitetsindeks når der kigges på den samlede kriminalitet – henholdsvis 313 og 397. Når der opdeles på de forskellige typer af kriminalitet er indekset for voldsforbrydelser særlig markant. Det ligger på 771 for efterkommere fra Somalia og på 666 for efterkommere fra Libanon, når der er alene er standardiseret for deres alderssammensætning. Når der også korrigeres for familiens indkomstniveau falder indekset en del, men ligger stadig langt over gennemsnittet for alle mænd. (use translation engine of your choice). Therefore, a WP:RS states that the crime rate is worthy of note. Crime rate among Somalis were also noted by public broadcaster Danmarks Radio in this 2010 article. MacrobianPrince's deletion equals saying that the crime rate is irrelevant, when Statistics Denmark and Denmark Radio says otherwise. Note that the title of the Statistics Denmark report is Indvandrere i Danmark 2017 and therefore the crime rate is relevant in an article about articles with immigration to Denmark as a topic. A Thousand Words (talk) 07:57, 5 December 2021 (UTC) (amended comment A Thousand Words (talk) 09:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC))

Why don't you include crime rates and unemployment rates for other European diasporas in scandinavia? Am 100% sure they also commit crime and some are also unemployed and use drugs. (personal attack removed) . MacrobianPrince (talk) 20:50, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Please, MacrobianPrince, your personal attacks are making things worse, not better. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 21:59, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

1Kwords, the criticism concerns the fact that the article appears very unbalanced: It systematically highlights negative items of information, conflicting with the principle of a neutral point of view. As Wikipedia:Neutral point of view states, "... discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." So the problem is fact picking. The section of crime is the largest and is supplemented by a prominent diagram, but which authoritative source makes crime the most important theme to focus attention on in an encyclopedic article on a specific population group? As others have said in this thread, it is rather unusual to mention crime rates at all in typical articles on immigrant groups. The other sections in the article also systematically dwell on negative pieces of information. As another example, the information that "analysis showed about 44% of Somalis in Denmark live in a parallel society" features prominently in the lead section. However, it does not disclose that the report in question simply defines "parallel society" from some simple demographical statisticial measures like living in a neighbourhood or having children in schools with many other people with immigrant background, which is far removed from the usual sense of the term parallel society; the very specialized use of the term in the particular report is highly controversial and has been criticized by several researchers in Denmark, so the present use in the WP article seems misleading rather than enligthening. --Økonom (talk) 08:30, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

It's a pretty obvious case of WP:UNDUE. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:12, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Definitely agree; the disputed parts restored here are obviously unworkable. In particular, the larger version (and the crime section in particular) relied extensively on WP:PRIMARY studies and even primary statistics to the point of performing WP:OR / WP:SYNTH from them. None of the citations to Statistics Denmark or statbank.dk are usable without a secondary source. Based on this discussion I'm seeing a broad consensus for the sort of clean-up that removed it and no consensus for retaining it. --Aquillion (talk) 03:39, 7 December 2021 (UTC)