Talk:Snot (rapper)

Stylization

@AshMusique: Per MOS:TMRULES: Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words or letters (e.g., "♥" used for "love", "!" used for "i") or for normal punctuation. They also write, When a name is almost never written except in a particular stylized form, use that form on Wikipedia, but there are plenty of examples of Edouard being referred to as "Snot" in sources (see [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and [6].) There are plenty of other rappers whose stage names have dollar signs in place of the letter "S", none of whom have a dollar sign in the title of their Wikipedia articles (e.g., Ty Dolla Sign, ASAP Rocky, ASAP Ferg, Too Short, Joey Badass, Cash Out.) I don't really see how this is any different. benǝʇᴉɯ 01:18, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi Benmite, thank you for the message. MOS:TMSTYLE refers solely to trademarks, not stage names. From a search I just conducted, for the amount of examples you provides of sources that use "Snot", there are also plenty of sources that use "$not", and "Snot" sometimes interchangeably too. The Teen Vogue source, by the way, did not refer to him as "Snot". Citing how other articles are titled hinges on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS; perhaps there should be a consistency on Wikipedia with regards to artists using a a dollar sign in their names, but Edouard himself has his name as "$not" on all his social media. Therefore, I think that's the best example we could go with. AshMusique (talk) 08:44, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

@AshMusique: Thanks for responding! MOS:TMSTYLE actually does refer to stylized stage names as well. Per WP:NICKNAME: For pseudonyms containing quotation marks or other special characters, see WP:Article titles § Special characters, WP:Manual of Style/Biography § Pseudonyms, and WP:Manual of Style/Trademarks. To summarize: avoid such a stylization unless it is found in the name in the overwhelming majority of independent reliable sources; e.g. "Weird Al" Yankovic, but P!NK → Pink (singer). As you acknowledged already, there are sources that refer to him as $not and there are also sources that call him Snot, and the two are sometimes used interchangeably, and in keeping with the prior guideline, it makes the most sense to change the page title to "Snot (rapper)" since the stylization is not what's used every single time. Yes, my argument was WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but some stuff exists for a reason. My point was not to say, "Some articles do this, so that means every article should do this," but to show that almost every article I could find about someone with a dollar sign in their stage name does not include that dollar sign in the article title. Ergo, there is no precedent for including a dollar sign in an article title for a stage name when the dollar sign is replacing an "S", since most if not all use the "$" and the "S" with equal frequency. Using ASAP Rocky as an example: upon a quick Google search, most of the sources that come up when talking about him use the dollar sign in his name, but there are still enough sources that refer to him without it that it makes the most sense to leave the dollar sign out of the article title. Social media accounts are self-published sources and shouldn't be used to determine an article's title, but even if we were to use them, his handles on both Instagram and Twitter are both @snot. My mistake with the Teen Vogue article. benǝʇᴉɯ 18:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Pinging AshMusique. benǝʇᴉɯ 00:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi Benmite, hope you're well. Sorry that I'm only responding now, I haven't had much time to be in Wiki. Back to the discussion, could you please point out where MOS:TMSTYLE refers to stage names? It says "In the article about a trademark..." Thanks for pointing out WP:NICKNAME though, it honestly is quite tricky as sources vary in their use of Edouard's name, though you make a good point by saying that "$not" isn't used every time, however I feel this is a case of ignore all rules, but at the same time there's also the case of consistency which you previously mentioned. I'm aware of the guideline with regards to self-published sources, I was moreso making a point of a non-extravagant case. Either way, social media handles don't allow for incorporation of special characters. So at this point I'm conflicted, but I'd be fine with the page being moved back to it's original title, although not 100% as I didn't consider my initial move as one that would be contested. Thank you for the message. AshMusique (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 21 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Clear consensus against moving. Fuzheado | Talk 07:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

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Snot (rapper) → $not – Per WP:SMALLDETAILS $not and Snot are 2 distinctive topics and the stylization serves as disambiguation. $not is also more frequently used in reliable sources. Célestin Denis (talk) 17:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. These types of stylizations don't belong in the article title. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

  Please cite me a policy that prevents stylization despite it being the most common usage in reliable sources. Célestin Denis (talk) 02:32, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. MOS:TMRULES regarding stylizations, particularly WP:TITLETM in this case regarding their use in article titles, should take precedence over WP:SMALLDETAILS. Zzyzx11 (talk) 17:45, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

  MOS:TMRULES states to not use special characters in the title "unless a significant majority of reliable sources that are independent of the subject consistently include the special character in the subject's name". From what I'm seeing a majority of sources are using $not as opposed to Snot when addressing the subject which justifies the stylization. Célestin Denis (talk) 02:29, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

  I have not been convinced that is the case. I still see a bunch of sources that use the "S" instead of the dollar sign, such as some of these:[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] And it does not help when there is an article like this one that is not consistent and uses both versions in the body text. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:17, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

  Those examples are cherry picked and some of the articles aren't even from reliable sources. Here are articles using $not: [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]. Complex and Uproxx which you cited as examples seem to switch from SNOT to $NOT in the titles and from what I'm seeing there are a lot more articles referring to him as $not as opposed to Snot. I think it'd be more useful to favor the natural disambiguation that the stylization offers especially given its prevalence in reliable sources. Célestin Denis (talk) 04:31, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, stylism. 162 etc. (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose move. This is a stylization. O.N.R. ^(talk) 22:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and WP:SNOW close, stylism. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per MOS:TM. This is the same case as Kesha vs Ke$ha. A stylization sometimes used is not something WP uses as an article title. Sources would have to overwhelmingly be using "$not" for us to use it. Zzyzx11's evidence shows that sources are quite mixed.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:04, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

  The difference here is that Kesha with or without the dollar sign doesn't require disambiguation so the stylization would be unnecessary. In this case, adding the dollar sign to $not makes the clear difference between the other meanings of Snot. That was my argument in bringing up WP:SMALLDETAILS. Célestin Denis (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

  Not to mention that Kesha herself changed her stage name to omit the stylization whereas still $not stylizes his artist name. No, this is very much not the same case as Kesha vs. Ke$ha Célestin Denis (talk) 17:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Oppose perMOS:TMRULES—blindlynx 20:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Oppose and snow close - MOS:TM Estar8806 (talk) 15:30, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.