Talk:She Said She Said

what does the part about Super Mario Sunshine have anything to do with this song? the phrase mentioned is only somewhat similar to the "she said, she said" lyric. i feel it has no place in the article unless it can be proven otherwise. --Tainter 20:10, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

She Said She Said

The drumming IS amazing, isn't it? Oudeis23 22:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)Oudeis23

'She said she said' was also featured in the album Lone Star by Lone Star. The album was released in 1976. The band were Welsh/ English and formed in 1975 by guitarist Paul Chapman - ex UFO and Tony Smith, vocalist Kenny Driscoll, drummer Dixie Lee and bassist Pete Hurley.

The key sig

Bb Mixolydian is a mode of Eb.

Band had a row?

"Paul McCartney recalls that the band had a row before the track was recorded,. . ." What does this mean? From the context, is it sayint they had a fight? Yeah, iono. 75.82.100.0 09:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Having a "row" means having a fight in British English. KKSlid3r 02:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

• It is documented in the Anthology book that the line "no, no, no, you're wrong" was contributed by George Harrison.
• Some of the lyrics are used in the Chameleons UK track "Singing Rule Britannia (While the Walls Close In)". Moved from main page by

Swinterich (talk) 07:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC))

"Paul is dead" Significance

People have interpreted the opening line ("I know what it's like to be dead") as a clue that Paul McCartney died and was replaced. And according to the "Everyone BUT Paul is Dead" parody theory[1] [2], this line is taken as a clue that Lennon (like all the other Beatles except McCartney) died and was replaced. (Moved from main page by Swinterich (talk) 07:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC))

Cover versions? Time signatures?

This song was covered by the Feelies on their 1986 EP No One Knows, and received lots of college radio attention at that time. Someone should compile a list of cover versions.

It is peculiar that the music section leaves out the most striking thing about the music, which is the shifting time signatures. Elections (talk) 06:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)elections 7/30/08

Hard rock?

We should remove the Hard rock genre because it clearly isn't hard rock! C.Syde (talk | contribs) 00:44, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Personnel credits, and description under Recording – Harrison or McCartney on bass

I've just reinstated the Personnel credits per the source we cite, Ian MacDonald (2005, p. 211). These were changed last October, around the time that user:6witha5wing altered the text under Recording on the point about whether McCartney's bass part was used on the released recording. I don't mean to skip over the issue that EMI records apparently suggest that McCartney must have played the bass, based on the Beatles' usual habit when doing the mixdown/reduction of the rhythm track to free up space for overdubs on the 4-track tape. If anyone thinks that point should be reinstated, then fair enough; personally, I've understood that such thinking had been revised in recent years.

For instance: MacDonald changed his credits between 1997 and 2005 (omitting McCartney altogether, crediting Harrison for the bass part), although I'm not able to see how he's then revised his description of the recording – i.e. on what I imagine would be p. 212 of the '05 edition (I've only got the previous edition). Also, in Revolver: How the Beatles Reimagined Rock 'n' Roll, Robert Rodriguez concedes that many Beatles authors have assumed that McCartney was on bass but he concludes that the stereo mix reveals the band must have strayed from their usual practice for the first reduction mix of "She Said She Said". Here's his rationale which, knowing Rodriguez's books, is actually based on others' findings: here. JG66 (talk) 12:33, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Chris Carter, host of Breakfast of the Beatles, has made a point recently of mentioning that this page is mistaken about George playing the bass and that it was Paul every time he plays this song (which is at least once a week). He mentions several books referencing this, and although I don't have the books, he seems fairly certain. It seems like there should at least be a note mentioning the controversy on the main page. Even if Chris is mistaken, many others hold this opinion too. Specialsam110 (talk) 13:27, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this here, but I don't why it's a problem of any sort. Paul McCartney, the Beatles' bassist, has said he didn't play bass on the song and that it was most likely Harrison. Several authoritative sources follow this – in the case of Ian MacDonald, altering his (1997) credits for the track in a revised edition. Walter Everett and Steve Turner are others, judging by the article. The Turner source is a 2016 book dedicated to the Beatles' career in 1966, month by month; Robert Rodriguez's 2012 book is dedicated to the Revolver period. So, those last two are not only sources where the focus implies a level of expertise, but they're fairly recent and therefore up-to-date with regard to the latest developments in (I hate to say it) Beatles' historiography. And this last point carries some weight on Wikipedia.

Personally, I don't know how people can hold on to this idea that it's McCartney's playing; or perhaps more importantly, why they do. There are several hundred books about the Beatles – no act from that era has received anywhere near the same level of coverage – so, yes, I'm sure there are books out there that see things differently. Just as I'm sure there are more that support Harrison as the bass player, given McCartney's comment in Many Years from Now and the influence that authors like MacDonald, Everett and Turner continue to have. JG66 (talk) 14:01, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I've just re-read my message at the start of this thread. I can see there that linked passages from Miles 1997 and Rodriguez, in some detail in the case of the latter, do explore the issue and mention uncertainty surrounding the bass credit, even if Rodriguez then comes to the same conclusion as MacDonald, Turner, etc. I agree that we should at least touch on what you're calling the "controversy" about "She Said She Said". JG66 (talk) 14:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I actually got in touch with Chris and he told me this: "Paul said in Barry Miles book he believes he may not be on She Said, as he recalls a rift that day with the other Beatles and then splitting the session. While this is TRUE, what Paul forgets (stoned) is that he and the other 3 lads laid down 3 full run throughs (top to bottom) of the song BEFORE he spilt the studio (June 21st 1966). If you read any of the sessions books (Lewisohn etc) you will notice that there are NO bass overdubs anywhere on the song. No George. No John. Plus it sounds just like Paul. It’s not overly intricate because it was recored when they were just laying down the basics so he played simple." He went on to say that Paul, who he's interviewed several times, often has a fuzzy memory on Beatles facts, and often forgets entire songs he's written. I don't have the Lewisohn book but I know I've seen it cited elsewhere on Wikipedia as a reliable source. Specialsam110 (talk) 13:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but we should follow what the reliable sources say. That means introducing the idea that there is some doubt about this issue, as I said above, but also adhering to what the sources that engage with this area of doubt (eg, Robert Rodriguez's book on Revolver) conclude after considering Lewisohn, Miles, etc. Besides, I know I've read somewhere that the bass part does not sound typical of McCartney's playing at all, but more like Harrison in its economy and tidiness ... We're not obliged to follow Chris Carter or anyone else in particular. That's nothing against Mr Carter, btw, just reflective of the neutrality we're meant to show on Wikipedia. JG66 (talk) 14:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

For sure. I wasn't able to read the Rodriguez passage earlier, but now that I see it, I realize that Chris probably is wrong and this is the most likely explanation considering the stereo mix, despite what so many otherwise trustworthy books say. Either way, I will endeavor to make sure he doesn't slander Wikipedia every time he mentions this song, because I know people work hard to represent the Beatles correctly here. Specialsam110 (talk) 14:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I wouldn't bother about that – he can slander Wikipedia all he wants (does he?). But his argument appears to be with the most up-to-date sources, because all anyone here can or should do is reflect the coverage afforded a particular subject. For my part, as a musician, I'm constantly frustrated by the many, many sources I read that cover Beatles songs: all the authors are so quick with an opinion, but they often don't listen to the music they're writing about – they mishear a sound or instrument, or don't notice it at all. But again, it's not up to one of us to, so-called, set the record straight; Wikipedia reports on and reflects the record (correct or crooked). JG66 (talk) 15:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

He believes Wikipedia is wrong, and with so many well-researched books stating the opposite (as Rodriguez even notes) he's probably not alone. Like I said, he mentions that Wikipedia is wrong nearly every time he plays She Said She Said, which is quite a bit considering he's on the air for 15 hours a week on a global station. I don't know if other Beatle fans listen to him as much as me, but there's no denying he has quite a bit of reach. It seems that this page has never been wrong, but I think the edit about the stereo mix confirming Paul's story will clarify why. Specialsam110 (talk) 15:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

"so many well-researched books stating the opposite (as Rodriguez even notes) ..." Rodriguez says "at least a couple of well-researched Beatles reference books".

There are many self-styled Beatles experts; some people just have output – opinions – and don't listen and don't read. And to repeat: Wikipedia is neutral and follows the most reliable sources, giving due weight but also following the most-up-to-date thinking as coverage of a subject develops. (I mean, Robert Rodriguez works in radio too, I believe. One could always get a different story on this by listening to him instead of, say, Chris Carter.) JG66 (talk) 16:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Chris tells me he and Robert have discussed this at length, and it doesn't look like either is budging. He claims that Robert's assertion that it was George and that the stereo mix supposedly proves it is nothing but an opinion. He is a DJ with almost 50 years of experience playing and discussing the Beatles. But until he writes a book, that's not worth anything. It does show that it's a good idea to note there is some doubt on the main page though.

I'm sorry, I don't feel this discussion is going anywhere. You appear to have Chris Carter in your ear, which is great but of no relevance here. I tried to be upfront about this bass-credit issue by starting the thread in 2016; I've since responded to your concerns, conceding that some elaboration and author attribution was needed. As I said in a comment with a recent edit, I'm concerned that the situation may currently be presented as Robert Rodriguez's opinion vs the EMI studio logs. It's much more than that – for instance, Walter Everett recognises Harrison as the bass player, and describes the stereo spectrum for the track with the bass located separately from the drums.

Rodriguez is viewed as an authority on the Beatles' Revolver. I've read that in Rolling Stone, and an Esquire article on the album's 50th anniversary featured Rodriguez's insights at some length, more so than Mark Lewisohn's. This is not to add to any Chris vs Rob (nor vs other sources, nor vs Wikipedia) situation at all. I've said it a couple of times already: we're neutral on Wikipedia. JG66 (talk) 15:25, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I thought it might be interesting, sorry to bother you. I already made the edit. Please go on with your day. Specialsam110 (talk) 15:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

The new Super Deluxe released today makes it virtually certain that McCartney is playing - he's heard talking before take 15, and the whole band is clearly playing that take. And the bass line sounds just like the released take. Also, the booklet attributes the bass to him. Is this not an acceptable, and indeed superior, source than various historical guesses? BR~enwiki (talk) 13:30, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Seriously, all four are on the rehearsal take - each playing in a style virtually identical to what they play on the master. I love that anyone would want to die on the hill of George suddenly being such a nimble, playful and fluid bassist (where else does this actually happen in his musical career? Given the facility, surely he'd do it again, no?) for these 3 minutes of his life that he would execute identical walks, mutes and unmutes, pivots to the five, and other such masterful subtleties on the fly. The fact that it doesn't sound quite as "cartoonishly Paul" as, say, "Rain" in no way negates the likelihood of traditional Beatles personnel on SSSS. Big Louise (talk) 16:45, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Please review how reliable sourcing works here. No one cares what you think you can hear (i.e. WP:OR). Tkbrett (✉) 17:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

What a nasty thing to say. She said the book attributes the bass to Paul. She asked whether this wasn't a superior source. Instead of being constructive, your default setting is to diminish what she wrote. What kind of fair-minded, neutral person responds to her perfectly good questions by saying "no one cares what you think you can hear." 2601:C2:B00:730:FCA3:C080:8FB0:AA0E (talk) 23:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Mark Lewisohn discovered that the basic track had drums and bass (track 1) and two guitars (track 2), so obviously Paul would've played bass on it. EMI wouldn't have falsified the studio paperwork on purpose.60.242.108.167 (talk) 14:17, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

If I was trying to channel Tkbrett, I'd say "no one cares what you think is obvious." You raise a good point about Mark Lewisohn and about the studio paperwork. 2601:C2:B00:730:FCA3:C080:8FB0:AA0E (talk) 23:51, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Hats Off!

Wow, I am very impressed by the further "fleshing out" of this quaint little story. So many things like this happen in history, and pass away without anyone to recall, but it's SO cool that the strange tale has been preserved! Well Done! Learner001 (talk) 17:04, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Tontoly?

on my phone (iPhone), under the page title, the word "Tontoly" appears. when i view the same page on my laptop (MacBook), it does not appear. what is "Tontoly", if anything? why the difference between the two device presentations? is this an error? a joke? wmharv - [email protected] - long-time user - new account-holder Wmharv (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Revolver Super Deluxe 2022

The new Revolver set released today reveals that Paul McCartney is indeed playing. However, actual audio (and the accompanying book) is apparently not good enough a source. BR~enwiki (talk) 13:23, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

You saying you hear Paul on the back track rehearsal (take 15) is indeed WP:OR. The main issue with your edit is that you added content without properly sourcing. Tkbrett (✉) 13:51, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

The accompanying booklet documents Paul as playing bass. How do I source that, then? I pointed to the article about the set. BR~enwiki (talk) 14:02, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I added it in here, similar to how it is done in the article for "Old Brown Shoe", another recording where the personnel is in dispute. Tkbrett (✉) 14:13, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

The individual you responded to didn't say he could hear Paul on the take. He said the booklet indicates Paul is playing bass. 2601:C2:B00:730:FCA3:C080:8FB0:AA0E (talk) 23:12, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

The personnel, as you put it, are not in dispute. 2601:C2:B00:730:FCA3:C080:8FB0:AA0E (talk) 23:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I've made some further additions from Howlett, this time in the body. For those who may not yet have the book from the Revolver: Special Edition, I'll paste the relevant passages here:

They were recorded as they rehearsed the backing track. Ringo’s drums and Paul playing bass are heard on track one and the guitars of John and George were recorded on track two. The tape box documents three takes having taken place; the third and only complete take being the one on which overdubs were added. Six more takes, however, follow on the reel that were announced as takes seven to nine and 15 to 17. CD Sessions Two Track 17 / LP Sessions Side Four Track 9 is take 15. The introductory speech is taken from before takes two and three, performances that were recorded, presumably, once the tape had been wound back to wipe the previous rehearsals.
[...] (Bit about overdubs, including John & George's vocals, counterpoint guitar melody and some extra Hammond organ notes)
In Many Years from Now, Paul confided that, 'I'm not sure, but I think it was one of the only Beatle records I never played on. I think we had a barney or something and I said, "Oh, fuck you!" and they said, "Well, we'll do it." I think George played bass.' It is pretty certain, however, that Paul is heard on the original rhythm track containing bass and drums. From 1'55" into the song, there are some more bass notes played on the organ after Paul had left the studio.
The disagreement that happened in the dead of night seems to have been about how to resolve differing ideas for the arrangement. A recording sheet in the Abbey Road archive indicates a piano was added to the song at one stage, but no trace of the instrument remains on the tapes.

Tkbrett (✉) 14:34, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

2601:C2:B00:730:D8EA:35B6:5D9D:5243 (talk) 17:56, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

The article contains things that aren’t true. For example,

McCartney took part in the early takes for "She Said She Said" but did not contribute to the finished recording.

This is false. McCartney plays on the finished recording. McCartney took part in three rhythm takes, the only takes recorded for drum and bass during the session according to the session logs. After he left the studio, the band worked on other instrumentation, but not the drums and bass.

Harrison played a Burns bass guitar, which he had used earlier in the Revolver sessions,

This is false. Harrison did not play the bass on She Said She Said. According to the liner notes for the new Revolver box set, McCartney played bass on She Said She Said.

In his 2012 book on the making of Revolver, however, Robert Rodriguez comments that the stereo mix of the song puts the bass and drums on separate channels – showing that the two contributions were not recorded together on the same track, which the logs suggest – and the bass part has little in common with McCartney's playing style or sound. He concludes that the session logs must be wrong and Harrison's role as bassist on "She Said She Said" is "pretty well certain".

This is false. The bass and drums were recorded together on the same track according to the book "Recording The Beatles" which I quoted from before an "editor" removed it. The playing style and sound that Mr. Rodriguez says has little in common with McCartney is the same style and sound on the final track of the new Revolver box set. This is a rehearsal track with George on lead guitar, John on rhythm guitar, Ringo on drums, and Paul on bass. Paul can be heard talking for a moment before the band begins to play. Paul also does the count-in.

According to Ian MacDonald, Walter Everett and Robert Rodriguez:

George Harrison – backing vocal, bass guitar, lead guitar

All three authors are incorrect. George did not play bass guitar on She Said She Said. 2601:C2:B00:730:DDBA:C176:6F62:EF45 (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

You're not fooling anyone. None of us here is stupid. We all know that you are the same edit warring editor as all of the other IPs in the 2601:c2:b00:730 range, all located in Palo Alto. You're presenting the same lame arguments that are supported only by your personal opinions. If you decide to resume edit warring after the block is lifted, there will very likely be a range block that prevents any of the IPs that you use to IP hop from editing. Drop this and move one. I, for one, will be ignoring any additional comments from your various IPs. Sundayclose (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Only you would think someone was trying to "fool" you. I have no idea what edit hopping is. When you have nothing to add, you resort to insult and threats. 2601:C2:B00:730:FCA3:C080:8FB0:AA0E (talk) 23:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Please give WP:TRUTH a read. You may feel certain that Paul played bass on the track, but we are not going to shape the text around your preferred view. Instead, we report what reliable sources say. A majority of reliable sources (Walter Everett, Ian MacDonald and Robert Rodriguez, to name a few) say George played bass. You may not like that they say this, but they do in fact say it. It would be inappropriate to bury the view of a majority of Beatles authors. In his liner notes to the recently released Revolver: Special Edition, Kevin Howlett writes that it was Paul. Howlett is no doubt a reliable source, but his view is not the gospel like you make it out to be.

This reminds me of similar a dispute over who played drums on "Old Brown Shoe". I think the GA for that song handles that dispute well by presenting both viewpoints in a neutral fashion. When adding Howlett into this article, I tried to present it similarly neutrally. Tkbrett (✉) 19:01, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

What I wrote is based on the liner notes on the Revolver box set and from the other sources from which I quoted. My personal views have nothing to do with anything I wrote. The "sources" you named are incorrect. The majority view is not the same thing as an accurate one. As for your neutral writing style, you're a regular Switzerland. 2601:C2:B00:730:DDBA:C176:6F62:EF45 (talk) 19:51, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Putting the word sources in scare quotes is not an argument for discounting Everett or any of the other authors. Until you offer something beyond your personal thoughts and feelings, I'm going to follow Sundayclose's lead on this one. Tkbrett (✉) 20:17, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

You have it exactly backwards. You are bringing your own personal feelings into what you write by making rude, dismissive remarks to people when you disagree with their point of view. The new liner notes to Revolver written by a well-regarded author with the full participation of the guy who played bass on track are dispositive. 2601:C2:B00:730:DDBA:C176:6F62:EF45 (talk) 20:51, 31 October 2022 (UTC)