Talk:Self-Defence in Lithuania and Belarus (1918)

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Article title[edit]

In the Notes to Żeligowski's Mutiny the name of this formation is translated as the Self-Defense of Lithuania and Belarus. See:

7. ^(Polish) Grzegorz Łukowski and Rafal E. Stolarski, Walka o Wilno. Z dziejów Samoobrony Litwy i Bialorusi, 1918-1919 (The Struggle for Vilnius: the History of the Self-Defense of Lithuania and Belarus, 1918–1919), Adiutor, 1994, ISBN 83-900085-0-5.

Compare with Google search: "Self-Defence of Lithuania and Belarus" – 28 results (with mirrors)

— Raczko (talk) 05:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 March 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that Self-Defence in Lithuania and Belarus (1918) be renamed and moved to Self-Defence of Lithuania and Belarus.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

Self-Defence in Lithuania and Belarus (1918) → Self-Defence of Lithuania and Belarus – The article has been moved several times without any discussion. I think of is more grammatically correct than in; and there is no need to add data range, not until another article exists necessiating a disambig (there is no such article on Polish Wiki AFAIK. As for WP:COMMONNAME, GS returns 2 hits for 'of' variant, and 0 for 'in'. I can't get much useful stuff from GBooks (one book uses the term Lithuanian & Belarusian Self - Defence Force which probably doesn't even merit a redirect. Note also that the Polish article is currently at "samoobrony kresowe", Kresy Self-Defence but that term does not seem to be used in English; one book uses the term "self-defense in the Kresy" which does not sound correct ("the Kresy"??). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 17:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ping User:Nihil novi regarding what sounds good in English? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Self-Defense of Lithuania and Belarus" suggests an organized activity (which it was) in those lands, whereas "Self-Defense in..." could refer to all sorts of disorganized self-defense, including by individuals.

Nihil novi (talk) 10:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Self-defence units in Lithuania and Belarus (1918). Seems like a better title. Not a proper name. Just a generic designation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Necrothesp If you want a descriptive title, Kresy is probably a better term than Lithuanian and Belarus, which are too broad. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Self-Defence of Lithuania and Belarus is a more faithful translation of Samoobrona Litwy i Białorusi. I think this title is also more historically accurate, because when I look at contemporary documents, that's the name they use. There is no identically-named unit from another time that I know as of now, so I think the date range can be removed as proposed by @Piotrus. +JMJ+ (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't we add "Polish" in front of the name, just for the sake of clarity? Marcelus (talk) 08:56, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps. The name proposed above aims to fix what I think is a simple grammatical mistake. Right now I'd lean towards Polish self-defence in Kresy if we wanted to use a descriptive name, but WP:COMMONAME is an issue to consider as well. Who else may be interested in those topics these days? @Olek Novy? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I understand, I agree and support the move. Marcelus (talk) 10:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i agree with the move aswell Olek Novy (talk) 10:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The natural meaning with in is 'Individuals in Lithuania and Belarus defending themselves against attack by other individuals', or possibly 'Judo and similar sports in Lithuania and Belarus', with self referring to the individuals. So the title identifies a different subject from that of the article. This conflicts with

The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject

in WP:AT, by ambiguously identifying the wrong subject to a casual reader. Musiconeologist (talk) 19:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]