Talk:Sean Lock

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Dogs[edit]

I removed the statement that said that he was amused by dogs being kicked in the head. There is no reference to this incident, neither is there any context. Furthermore, the statement "thereby losing him many fans" is unattributed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.197.151 (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Newman and Baddiel[edit]

Quote from David Baddiel's Wikipedia entry: The occasionally quoted myth that, Sean Lock became the first comedian to play Wembley Arena, since he was the warm-up act on the night in question, is incorrect: Lock performed extra parts in Newman and Baddiel's sketches and thus didn't come on until 15 minutes into the event — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.248.1 (talk) 21:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Funny Farm[edit]

I recently corrected information about Sean's first TV appearence (1992 The Funny Farm, STV). This was deleted, why?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.222.205 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 30 November 2013‎

Apologies, I was just reverting all of your funny fake name edits to British comedian articles, I didn't realise you'd also made an ostensibly constructive edit to this one, while editing his real name to "Seamus Escupian Locke".
Good to see the YouTube source, but it doesn't seem to have a year attached? I've gone ahead and cut the existing claim that Newman and Baddiel was his "first" TV appearance, though, as this isn't sourced either. --McGeddon (talk) 19:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Atheism[edit]

"Sean Lock is an atheist". How is that noteworthy? Was this added by an American editor? 62.205.71.238 (talk) 01:41, 29 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Date of death[edit]

@Bilorv: the BBC source doesn't say that Lock died this morning, only that he has died. He may have died yesterday, or even earlier in the week. Given that all sources are drawing from the same statement from his agent, which doesn't include a date of death, I don't see how Wikipedia can give a specific date yet. --Lord Belbury (talk) 10:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lord Belbury: you're right, sorry, think I've undone it now. I hadn't actually read the sources in full yet when I made the edit, but was assuming one of them said he died today. The lead already made the assertion that it was 18 August, but I've now removed it from the infobox and lead. (Even saying he died in August, which is what was there before, looks like an assumption.) Hopefully we'll find out an exact date. — Bilorv (talk) 10:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, August is an assumption, but quite a safe one. As his death was expected and the cause was clear, I suspect it was yesterday or today. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:52, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
None of the sources mentioned so far - BBC, Twitter, etc. - have specified a date. "Sad news this morning 💔 Much-loved comedian Sean Lock has died, aged 58, his agent has confirmed.". That does not say whether he died today, yesterday, or any other date. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the tributes from fellow comedians will follow the announcement by the agency and thus will all (or mostly all) be dated today. This says nothing about the actual date of death. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I've just seen The Telegraph's obit, which gives his date of death as today.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 15:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For those of us without access to the Telegraph, does it also give his middle name? - it starts with M, apparently. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:34, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything in there about a middle name.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 17:34, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Guardian now gives different date[edit]

Now The Guardian is saying he died on 16 August 2021 [1] as opposed to 18 August 2021 as said by The Telegraph [2].  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Times gives it as 18 August (here), so you have the two papers of records' obits give one date and The Guardian another. Solipsism 101 (talk) 23:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the 18th may have come from us. The 16th is more likely.--Launchballer 00:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible but The Times and The Daily Telegraph are both newspapers of record and are reliable. The Guardian is also reliable. Since Telegraph and Times are very reliable they probably would not have just ripped DOD from Wiki, though it still begs the question of where The Guardian got the 16th from (I remember a similiar thing thing happened at Paul Ritter RD, Playbill ripped DOB from Wiki turned out be objectively false due to age and time of death but better RSs found the accurate DOB, though this situation is more tricky). Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 00:47, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Times and Telegraph were operating off of the date of announcement. 16th isn't coming from nowhere, Guardian clearly looked further into the death than other citations. They do this all the time, as Guardian are the place I go to when a DOD is uncertain. Rusted AutoParts 22:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is still not resolved. The Guardian still gives his date of death as 16th August (here), while other sources apparently state 18th, the date it was announced. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They are newspapers of record and considering both of them are saying the 18th compared to the Guardian it is clear it is the 18th. It is OR is assume both the Times and Telegraph are " were operating off of the date of announcement", as they explictly state he died on 18th.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 22:36, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is a fallacy. The official statement from his agency had no dates included, which is what the vast majority of the sources reporting his death are citing. Guardians publishes two reports: the first announcement, and then an obituary. There is no date of death used in the first citation, as it was not known or reported through the agency announcement, however thy now report the 16th in their obituary, as they were able to confirm details of the death from those involved. Guardian is the UK’s NYT or WaPo. They do their due diligence. So to reject them because Times and Telegraph cited the announcement date is a fallacy. Rusted AutoParts 22:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Times reported about the death after the agent announcement with a brief short report with the headline "Comedian and 8 Out of 10 Cats star Sean Lock dies" (now just redirects to main obituary since details were brief) [3]. They then later published a more detailed obituary report here [4] saying (with a lot of detailed info about Lock which no intial reports contained besides the other in-depths obituaries like The Telegraph and Guardian) saying he died on the 18th. The same thing happened with The Telegraph intial more brief report first published here [5]. Then a later more detailed report [6] (in addition to further coverage [7][8]). The Telegraph and The Times are more comparable to The New York Times as all three are newspapers of record (see that article for more info), whereas The Guardian is not. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 23:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Whether Guardian is a newspaper of record is irrelevant, the Times and Independent article are not death notices directly from the family or funeral home. My other major quibble about the Times and Independent obituaries is that they are just attributed to the papers themselves, not an individual obituary writer. Anthony Hayward penned the Guardian obituary citing the 16th. He is their dedicated obituary writer, and through him was how Desmond Davis was first reported. His work is provable through his profile, whereas we can’t see who is generating the obituaries at the Times/Independent. In that end it would be fair to think they were simply referring back to their initial breaking news reports. Rusted AutoParts 00:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I support this edit of yours: we shouldn't be including the date when RS disagree and obits are being quickly thrown out and then continually edited. Snopes got called out for plagiarism last week in their hurried churnalism (see BuzzFeed News and Snopes's apology) but it's becoming how the industry works more generally, so we are forced to bend over backwards to avoid citogenesis. Hopefully the correct date will become apparent. It is not our fault that a simple fact cannot be agreed on by the media, but that's the situation. Speculation doesn't get us anywhere because the sources are all generally reliable, and which of the 16th or 18th is correct relies on unknown information about which journalist actually got their info from a source close to Lock. — Bilorv (talk) 00:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Whether Guardian is a newspaper of record is irrelevant" then why did you say The Guardian is supposedly the "UK'S NYT" which it isn't. There's is a difference between just generally reliable sources, and higher quality RSs like The Times and Telegraph (just like there is difference between citing CNN and NYT). "In that end it would be fair to think they were simply referring back to their initial breaking news reports." there is no evidence for this if you read through both Telegraph and Times (assuming you are able to) the obituaries detail many facts not mentioned at all mentioned in the intial death notices. Just have a look at the Early life section of this article (school name, parents names, A-level grade and subject, previous jobs, etc). Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 01:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We aren't looking for early life details though, we're looking for his date of death. If it's to believed that the 18th is the DOD, why did a career obituary writer cite a different date for Guardian? "In that end it would be fair to think they were simply referring back to their initial breaking news reports" is a fair concern in that regard, because we do not know who is jotting up their version of their Lock obituary saying the 18th was indeed the DOD. We know who Hayward is, we know obituaries are his speciality. So we know he vets the information, and thus we know he got the 16th from a reliable means. Rusted AutoParts 01:44, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen a full Independent obit for him yet. Maybe we should wait and see what they say. In the case of actress Barbara Shelley, who died in January, her obits in The Guardian and The Telegraph both misreported her DOD as 4th Jan (as did every other news report of her death) whereas she had actually died the previous day (as was confirmed by her family/funeral home). Her latterly published obits in The Independent and The Times got the date right. Crisso (talk) 23:34, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I am aware this specific discussion here is not about Early life details. The reason I mention that as evidence that Times and Telegraph obituaries were well researched into the topic not just a simple rehash death notice of Lock’s roles. I am unable answer the question as to why and Guardian said 16th but I same unanswerable question can be said for Times and Telegraph. The assumption of they just used announcement date just doesn’t not seem to hold considering that the articles as a whole were in-depth into the subject.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 02:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is nice that all three outlets were in-depth on his life but I’m not putting Guardian over the other two because of the write-ups themselves, I’m doing so because there is a name to the person doing the Guardian obituary whereas who did the other two isn’t. Since when Lock’s agency did not provide a DOD, no one for sure knew. I feel safe in leaning towards the Guardian due to Hayward’s credentials. If I knew who did the other two, this wouldn’t be a source of contention of their work was of note too. Hayward’s job is to vet the details of the passing. If details like DOD were not available, they would put “death announced” for the date they were announced as passing away. It just seems questionable that Times and Independent cite the 18th at the time when the DOD wasn’t announced, then Hayward at the Guardian publishes his with a date of the 16th. Rusted AutoParts 03:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, having name Anthony Hayward should count for something. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned, The Times and The Telegraph are papers of record; they do not include an author for their obits. Obits are generally more thoroughly researched and offer new insights about a subject (I am thinking about how the authorless The Times obit transformed our understanding of the recently deceased Paul Ritter), I imagine through interviewing family/friends. The two obits did indeed add new knowledge about Lock. Therefore, we shouldn't assume that the two named papers are simply following the initial press release alone without any journalistic work. But it's an unusual situation. Note the dispute in the body, change lead and infobox to Aug and wait for more info? Solipsism 101 (talk) 10:55, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Whilst yes having it authored by Hayward does add some reliablity it is certainly not enough for us to know completely. Two newspapers of record (even without a byline) go with the 18th whilst the Guardian (which does have a byline) goes with 16th, it is not enough for us to conclude the 16th even with Hayward.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 13:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki edit for an authorised editer; Cause of death: lung cancer as per ITV interview with Bill Bailey on 18-Aug-2021 {https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DHBrqPUlBt8&feature=youtu.be} at 1.28 mins. He had been diagnosed with the disease several years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.58.42.223 (talk • contribs) 04:16, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but we can't use that particular clip is it's a ITV/BBC copyvio. In any case, an interview comment by Bill Bailey can't be taken as an RS for a cause of death - only the official death certificate can provide that. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The NZ Herald doesn't give a date in their article yesterday, https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/comedian-sean-lock-dies-after-battle-with-cancer-aged-58/NRWTIVLM27ICTVRMDUC7BPFKFE/ A Guardian article from the day before also gives no date, https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/aug/18/comedian-sean-lock-dies-aged-58 Camwad83 (talk) 02:05, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An article from The Sun posted 15 minutes ago has no date and neither does their article on his passing which they reference in this article, Sean Lock death - Tributes from Jimmy Carr and Lee Mack as comedian's cause of death revealed to be cancer https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/15899933/sean-lock-dead-cause-death-cancer-tributes-jimmy-carr?utm_source=native_share&utm_medium=sharebar_native&utm_campaign=sharebaramp Camwad83 (talk) 02:10, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The S*n (RSP entry) is not reliable. — Bilorv (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not a full obit from the Independent as has been speculated on, but they did run a piece yesterday explicitly giving the date of death as the 18th: [9] --Sunshineisles2 (talk) 10:49, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And that one is also signed... by Jacob Stolworthy. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:54, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewing more RSs for DOD[edit]

Table summaring the RSs of DOD
RSs for DOD as 16th RSs for DOD as 18th
The Guardian (Anthony Hayward) [10] The Times (no byline, newspaper of record) [11]
The Daily Telegraph (no byline, newspaper of record) [12]
The Independent (Jacob Stolworthy) [13]
NME (Adam Starkey) [14]
Maybe we need another column for RSs which do not give a date e.g. The Scotsman [15] which says "News of Lock's passing away was revealed on Wednesday 18 August." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:05, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It appears the majority view is that he died on the 18th. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 13:57, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not sure why The Guardian has a different death date, but if everyone else disagrees with them, I guess we do just have to go with August 18. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 14:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure either. We could say 18th and then add an efn simliar that on Antonin Scalia, explaining that Guardian has 16th as DOD but most of others say 18th. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 14:33, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy with that. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 14:37, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should go with the majority view simply because it's the majority. There's no harm in leaving it as August for a few days, to see if the date becomes clearer, or if the Guardian changes its date. By the way, has anyone tried to contact their obituary section to ask? I've emailed the Guardian obituary section to ask for an explanation, and will respond here if they reply. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Tsk. Original research at it's worst. And thanks, good idea. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:17, 20 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]
I contacted The Guardian, The Times and The Telegraph. The Guardian got back to me and said The writer checked twice with Sean Lock's agent and it is correct that he died on 16 August.. Now to see what the others say... (if they will issue corrections or not).  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yay. Original research at it's best. And thanks, good idea. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]
Yes, the good kind. Hopefully it resolves it, also find it interesting the non-subscription paper replied faster than the subscription ones...  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 19:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's what they told me as well - but I still haven't heard from the agent, Jane Plough sorry, Amanda Emery. Can't we just wait a while longer? Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now the agent really did ought to know. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I personally would wait a bit longer, but I won't die on that hill.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 20:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! — Bilorv (talk) 21:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On the basis of The Guardian asserting it's not an error, in particular, I think we should still be holding off for a few days. — Bilorv (talk) 21:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No sign of any updates from the other four sources? Seems surprising. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:08, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Confirming what others have said... My reply received from Lock's publicist, Amanda Emery: "Date of death 16 August, date of announcement 18 August 2021. Thanks, Amanda" Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:25, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A little surprised The Times , The Telegraph and The Independent should all get it wrong. That really is the most basic journalism. Much more surprised there are no corrections/ updates. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:08, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, now I'm happy to use 16th and keep the note (which happens to have been done already). Astonishingly bad behaviour by those publications but I can't say I'm surprised. Good luck trying to get a correction out of them. I've yet to get even a single typo corrected from any publication I've ever emailed. — Bilorv (talk) 10:52, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Listicle[edit]

Please move "55th greatest" from the lead, this is just a random list show, not any kind of objective assessment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.240.157 (talk • contribs) 12:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a fact. Whether or not you personally agree with it is neither here nor there. The 2007 Channel 4's 100 Greatest Stand-Ups seems a perfectly appropriate medium for that kind of claim. Not sure what an "objective assessment" would be anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The lead also refers to his writing for other comedians, which doesn't appear to be mentioned elsewhere in the text. I've slightly reordered that paragraph in a way which I think gives a better balance. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:04, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The C4 ranking is mentioned a bit across articles, especially on deceased or retired comedians, to place them and their achievements into some context. I would support retaining it. Solipsism 101 (talk) 13:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some comedians and/or legends quite like an arbitary ranking, say being the 41st Best Stand Up Ever, for example. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in an ironic way. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Israel[edit]

Apparently he has spent some time on a kibbutz? Does anybody know more about this, his motivations for doing something quite out-of-the-ordinary like that, etc? Seems interesting enough to add here.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1333439/Comedian-Sean-Lock-The-night-stand-saved-life.html 81.109.83.155 (talk) 14:50, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We're not going to use the Daily Mail as a source. Is it covered in other sources? Joseph2302 (talk) 15:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mentioned in The Telegraph (here). "Leaving education with one A-level, Sean began drinking, travelling and drifting through a series of odd jobs. He worked on a kibbutz in Israel and spent six weeks on a French farm." Solipsism 101 (talk) 15:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's a bit of a throwaway line in the DM. It just says: "Despite all those hours toiling outside, Sean also enjoyed holidays abroad, travelling in Europe and working on a kibbutz in Israel." 15:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, and there is cause for a little cation here, on account of Lock's many panel show appearances. I think the kibbutz thing was mentioned in passing on an episode of Would I Lie to You once upon a time, as was the goat herding thing, though which were in passing and which the subject of a possible-lie/possible-genuine-factoid, I can't recall. The general takeaway (as best I can recall) was that both are true, but the situation underscores the fact that his particular source of fame, and his particular brand of comedy, could lead to anecdotitis, and that some things could easily be communicated along the pop culture pipeline incorrectly. Of course, we need to go with the reliable secondary sources ultimately, but when a source repeats stories about his past pre-entertainment industry work life, it probably pays to consider whether the statements are based off a direct interview with Lock or have more ambiguous sourcing--and if the latter, it may be reasonable to insist upon more than one source for some details. SnowRise let's rap 23:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Death place[edit]

We know the Death date now per Telegraph obit (a lot of detailed info there). But still do not know death place other than Lock died at his home per Independent. But not clear where "home" is at the moment so I have just changed it to England for now. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 16:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a snippet from Ham & High, about the Muswell Hill soup kitchen ("Purely because the guy who organises it, runs it, created it, lives on my street.": [16]. But then they also have him as born in Woking. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But this says that he "lived in Lewes, East Sussex, since around 2012...". So, we don't know. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:29, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, although online directories are notoriously often out of date. That was 6-7 years ago. It's not impossible that he owned properties both in Lewes and in Muswell Hill? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair point it could right. There is als a more detailed article about the soup kitchen here. The "guy" who organises is David Stone who operates it (It was created by Martin Stone and a group of volunteers at a soup kitchen in London's Muswell Hill.). Not sure if we should include the death place since it is possible for Lock to know the Stone who runs it whilst both of them not living in the area. Though the article does open as "Muswell Hill comedian Sean Lock..."[17]. And yes Ham & High goes with Woking birth date (which appears to not be true per Lock himself, though suprisingly Guardian goes with Woking in their Obit. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:25, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Later Guardian obit here does not say that. In fact it says: "born in Chertsey, Surrey, to Mary (nee McCreesh) and Sidney Lock." Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah I see thanks missed that.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:37, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The official birth records show Sean M. Lock, mother's maiden name McCreesh, born in the second quarter of 1963 in the Surrey North Western Registration District. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This source states that he "lived in Lewes" and "died at home". Is that sufficient grounds for us to reliably infer, and state as fact, that he died in Lewes? I'm unsure whether it does. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PS: A Facebook post refers to him as "former Lewes resident". Another post says: "...he was a local resident for over 8 years..." So, I don't think that we can infer that he died in Lewes. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Date of first official gig[edit]

Is currently given as 1998, citing the Telegraph. Surely that isn't correct. I saw him doing stand-up before then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.81.51 (talk • contribs) 18:04, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It was certainly before then. The Guardian obit quotes him as saying: "I used to go to comedy gigs and see people in pubs in London, then I started doing open spots and it was a hobby for many years... One day I got my first gig and I got paid £15 for 20 minutes, and that’s when I realised you could earn a living from it." It goes on: "His big break came when he landed a regular guest spot in the 1993 TV sketch show Newman and Baddiel in Pieces. This led him to support Rob Newman and David Baddiel on a tour that year...". So, early 1990s at the latest. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies when I added this I misspelt "1988" as "1998". I have now corrected it. The full Telegraph source reads: Meanwhile, he had been visiting comedy shows in London pubs. “Then I started doing open-mic spots, and it was a hobby for many years”, he said. His first official gig, at a pub in Stoke Newington in 1988, included an ill-advised skit on the Specials’ anti-apartheid anthem Free Nelson Mandela in which he sang for the liberation of Myra Hindley, the Moors murderer.. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, if only someone had made a recording. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Balance of article[edit]

One problem with the article is that it currently gives nowhere near enough weight to the comedy for which he is (I would argue) most famous - as captain on 8 Out of 10 Cats and 8 Out of 10 Cats Does Countdown. I realise we can only report what published sources say, but we should make efforts to redress the balance away from his early breakthrough and put more about his last 15 years as a TV panel show star. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It does seems a lot of RSs note him as most known for 8 Out of 10 Cats. The following may be useful for noting 8 out of 10 coverage:
  • "He will be best remembered as a team captain for the first 18 series (2005 to 2015) of the Channel 4 show 8 Out of 10 Cats, which gets comedy out of opinion poll results, and he quickly emerged as its biggest star." Guardina obit
  • "Sean Lock, who has died from cancer aged 58, was a popular comedian known for his deadpan delivery on television panel shows such as Have I Got News for You with Ian Hislop and Paul Merton, QI, and as a team captain on Jimmy Carr’s 8 Out of 10 Cats; he also drew enthusiastic reviews for touring shows such as Lockipedia, its title a play on the internet site that he claimed to despise." Telegraph obit
  • "He was best known for being the team captain on Channel 4 series 8 Out of 10 Cats, presented by Jimmy Carr, for 10 years from 2005. He was replaced by Rob Beckett in 2016." [18]
TLDR yes we need more panel show coverage added. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:33, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And, of course, if it only mentioned 8 out of 10 Cats/Countdown, the article would be tagged for recentism. Sometimes you just can't win! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:35, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Puffin hearts etc. at Lidl. Highly recommended. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My view is that we do need to expand of 8 out of 10 Cats/Countdown coverage whilst obviously still covering the rest of his career. We need not trim early career, just expand later 8 out of 10 and other panel stuff. Just naturally due to the nature of a panel show it is harder for RSs cover it in detail (no script, production info is not needed for panel shows). Though am still trying to expand article as we speak. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And we can't just keep saying "he was very funny". Though he was, of course. RIP. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:50, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just added a comedic style section, but it relies on mostly one source.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 22:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we do need to be careful here, precisely for the recentism element Lugnuts notes above: many of the sources coming most recently in the form of obligate obituaries coming out of the entertainment press are going to place heavy emphasis on the 8 out 10 Cats/8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown, as the subject he cans imply be most easily identified with for a quick story. While it's certainly true that this facet of his career was probably the component that exposed him to the largest number of people, bootstrapping his standup career considerably, the two did kind of evolve in tandem (Lock was not an unknown stand-up before 8 out of 10 Cats, but all of his DVDs came after his initial stints on the panel scene), and he was an established content creator and comedy writer for some years before that. Capturing the flow of his story is actually the element that is most lacking at the present time, I feel, not any one part: if we do a slightly better job to contextualize the disparate facts in the Career section, the role of the panel shows in general (and 8 Out of 10 Cats/Does Countdown in particular) will become more obvious, and without needing to add much more in the way of actual content about the shows--which in any event, would be difficult to do, because while there may be a certain volume of discussion regarding his role on those shows, they really are treading the same grand mostly: I mean, I think this man was a comedy genius, but there's only so much you can say about his part on the show in summary style that is going to be relevant. That said, if someone can find the sources to justify mentioning Carrot in a Box... SnowRise let's rap 21:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here you go..... Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And I thought cats were fun... Martinevans123 (talk) 21:52, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Awwww, I should have figured others would be reminiscing about that. :) --> :( I'm gonna miss that man. SnowRise let's rap 22:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was so nervous when they did the rematch but thankfully he won that too. Original Carrot in a Box is the best bluff in TV history, out in front of 14 years of WILTY and that Golden Balls Split or Steal where the contestant promises to Steal. — Bilorv (talk) 19:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No mention of QI in Lock's filmography?[edit]

I've seen that other contestants of the British TV show also don't have QI mentioned in their respective filmography pages too, is there already a consensus to this? Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 01:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know of consensus for excluding QI or other panel shows from filmography (I have not personally had a chance to add them myself yet). There is also quite a few shows sourced in body which are not in the table yet and should be, and there is also BFI listings which are not all covered yet. Still more to add, feel free to help. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 01:36, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added QI. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 07:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We should surely differentiate between those shows on which he was a permanent team member, and those in which he made one-off guest appearances (like QI). Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:20, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I always wondered why he suddenly stopped being on the series after about 2010/11. Bill Bailey, Phill Jupitus, Jimmy Carr, etc, continued to be regulars long after that. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Date of death (2)[edit]

Where is the source that says he died on the 18th August. Wasn’t this not the day his death was announced? The guardian obituary says 16th August.Daniellejade00 (talk) 11:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Sean Lock obituary". The Times. 18 August 2021. ISSN 0140-0460. Retrieved 18 August 2021. and "Sean Lock, laidback star of television comedy shows including 8 out of 10 Cats who was also an original and confident stage performer – obituary". The Daily Telegraph. 18 August 2021. Retrieved 18 August 2021.. But both are paywalled. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Both those sources say 18th of August. "He died of cancer on August 18"[19] and "Sean Lock, born April 22 1963, died August 18 2021"[20]. P.S. Martinevans123, paywalls for news websites are staggeringly easy to get around... ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 12:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should tell our readers? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]
Let's see who budges first. Solipsism 101 (talk) 13:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See also this discussion at the talk page for Deaths in 2021, where they have decided to go with the 16th of August due to the piece from The Guardian. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 08:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All the people who were lined up for interviews on the 18th would indicate that the actual demise was earlier. Nasnema  Chat  17:14, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly true, but there's no evidence for it. They were his friends. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Re this revert: I'm not trying to "hide something" for the sake of it, but where does The Guardian obit here say that "the agent confirmed the DOD twice"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't, but that is what Spy-cicle reported further up this talk page (and there's no reason to doubt it). Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I mean is there a way for me to forward the email to OTRS team so as proof/verification the email from The Guardian is legitimate?  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 20:30, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have never tried. And I don't know how you'd then make that process transparent as a source in the article. I was just sceptical that the content of this Talk page could constitute a WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The email is not an RS because it's not published, and the talk page is not an RS because it's user-generated, but that's not the point of it. There's no need to tell OTRS anything. At least one of these generally reliable sources is unreliable for this particular fact (by virtue of the fact that only one date can be correct), and the meta-process of determining reliability of sources is not itself determined by RSes (that would be circular logic), but by the principles of community decision making (and some heuristics outlined at the guideline WP:RS and elsewhere). Email evidence is a perfectly common-sense factor in making that meta-assessment. — Bilorv (talk) 10:19, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah sure, but "meta-assessments" can't be used as sources in article space? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops, completely misunderstood the situation. Sorry, Martinevans123. No, this can't be used in prose. I think having it as a hidden comment is fine—comments have about the same standards as talk page comments (though they should reflect more than just one editor's opinion), but it's not fine in prose for the reasons you gave. I've removed it from the note it got moved to. Someone can add it back as a comment if they feel strongly. — Bilorv (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The assessment for the talk page decision, which can involve OR. Probably not something we can say in a note on the article page; we can determine on the talk page that 16 is preferred and just say RSs give differing dates. If any reader is inquisitive about why we came to this consensus, they hopefully know to visit the talk page. Solipsism 101 (talk) 10:59, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Confirming what others have said... My reply received from Lock's publicist, Amanda Emery: "Date of death 16 August, date of announcement 18 August 2021. Thanks, Amanda" Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:39, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A reliable source reports death by lung cancer. Why is everyone so sensitive? It's not like we are calling him a paedophile. Get over it, FFS. WWGB (talk) 11:18, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure lung cancer chooses a particular date. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll ask editors to please refrain from adding citations or altering the note further. It is not a means to serve as death citation, but to explain the DOD issues and why we are utilizing the date The Guardian has. It's basically a summary of our findings here. Rusted AutoParts 23:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is the first contribution you've made to this discussion and we've got several users explaining above why it's inappropriate, so it's not acceptable to tell other editors what to do. This edit by Rhain is completely correct. We don't explain our internal determinations in the prose of the article like that. Everything not in a comment needs to be an RS (a BLP RS even), and this email discussion is not even bordering on being one (that's not the point of it). — Bilorv (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
First in this thread, but I have been in the previous discussion about this same issue. My aim with the note was to convey why the one source had weight over the multiple other sources. Once I was reminded that could be accomplished with a hidden note alongside the visible note, I refrained from altering it back further. Rusted AutoParts 06:34, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Died from lung cancer?[edit]

These good enough sources for stating he died from lung cancer (or possibly attributble or do we need more concrete sources?) [21][22][23][24][25] Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 21:14, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's all pretty definitive. Lock had included references to his smoking in his routines for some time. Martinevans123 (talk)
All those quotes come from Bill Bailey. I'd be OK if the article said: "According to his friend Bill Bailey....". But one non-medical person's statement can't really be taken as definitive. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:25, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm okay with attributing it to Bailey.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 21:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as I said before, only the death certificate is really definitive, But there seems little doubt about this. Bailey would not suggest such a thing if it were not true. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Death certificates show official causes of death but are by no means always correct & quite often are deliberately incorrect. Like anyone else, George Washington included, Bailey will have told fibs during his life. That Lock referenced his smoking in routines is utterly irrelevant. What's matters here is attribution & reliable sourcing, ie WP:VNT. - Sitush (talk) 01:02, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You're proposing that reports by friends are more reliable than a death certificate? The article for Death certificate is quite brief - perhaps we need a section on deliberate falsification? Lock's smoking may not be relevant to this discussion, but I suspect it was relevant to his developing lung cancer. Sorry for the WP:SYNTH. I still can't believe that Bailey would invent something like this and choose to speak to the press so candidly. I would certainly not brand him as a liar; nor would I dare to draw comparisons between Lock's doctor and such individuals as Harold Shipman. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:04, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The sources that quote Bill Bailey are all pretty poor tabloid ones, though in the circumstances I expect they are accurate. I've modified the wording, so that the definitive cause of death is said to be cancer (per the better sources), while Bailey's reference to, specifically, lung cancer, is attributed to him. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:46, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That seems perfectly reasonable. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:04, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The report in Manchester Evening News, as in all the other RSs, directly attributes the cause to Bailey. There's no "official" confirmation. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A reliable source reports death by lung cancer. Why is everyone so sensitive? It's not like we are calling him a paedophile. Get over it, FFS. WWGB (talk) 11:20, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I don't see why Bailey is any less reliable than an anonymous source like "his agent confirmed". But Bailey is the only source at the moment. It's not in any of the broadsheet newspaper obituaries? So I don't see why the cause can't be attributed to Bailey, in three or four additional words. It's not like Bailey is a paedophile. "FFS". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's no rush to add info, which is not yet verified. Solipsism 101 (talk) 12:09, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've commented out a sentence that was sourced only to the Daily Express (RSP entry). I can't see when it was added or why, but we absolutely cannot use this source. If the information can be found elsewhere in a reliable source, even if that's an official YouTube video of part of a TV news interview or similar, then let's cite it there. — Bilorv (talk) 17:46, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The previous version was fine - it mentioned that Bill Bailey said that he died from lung cancer. Why we now need to say that the Manchester Evening News said that Bill Bailey said that he died from lung cancer is completely beyond me. It's crazy. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a category for "People rumoured to have died from lung cancer"? If not, let's make one. CityFeedback talk 13:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you did make one, I suspect it would soon be deleted. Wikipedia doesn't do rumours. And besides, it's not a "rumour". It's very likely to be true and is very plainly attributed to one of Lock's close friends. We just have a sourcing issue. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does "diagnosed with lung cancer" equal "died of lung cancer"?[edit]

The added source from The Independent [26] added saying Lock died of cancer only states: "Diagnosed with lung cancer, Lock died at home surrounded by his family." To me that does not necessarily mean The Independent says the cause of death is lung cancer (this "diagnosed with lung cancer" probably came from Bailey's comments), though that is what we currently say in the article. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 16:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I had assumed that most people reading The Independent would make the inference that the diagnosis and the death were pretty much linked in the most direct and obvious way. And we don't know whether Marcus Williamson has seen or heeded Bailey's comments in any way. But yes, those are two separate clauses separated by a comma, aren't they. So feel free to revert, if you wish. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think this death has been discussed more than Elvis'. Seasider53 (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Awww. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:52, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay thanks, I have changed it to match it with what the sources currently say.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 22:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lock died of cancer at his home, aged 58, after being diagnosed with lung cancer is going to get edited until the cows come home, due to its laughable wording, so stand by. Seasider53 (talk) 10:58, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've got this article watchlisted. First sign of an edit war and I'll lock the article. You have been warned! Mjroots (talk) 11:28, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Reading the immediately following sentence, the second part looks to be redundant. Unless the existing sources directly support that diagnosis and single cause, in which case the following mention of Bailey is redundant? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:39, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Quite so. I've removed the duplication of the lung cancer diagnosis. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Middle name[edit]

The official record of his birth in 1963 gives his name as "Sean M. Lock". It's a primary source so shouldn't be used here, though "Matthew" (as in this anonymous edit) is certainly plausible. But, without a reliable source, we shouldn't include it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:36, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone fix the format in the grid?[edit]

In the filmography section, 2001 and This Filthy Earth is out of alignment 47.152.207.163 (talk) 16:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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