Talk:Saint Martin (island)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Article title

I don't see why the Saint Martin article should be moved here. Sint Maarten Saint Martin is a rather obscure title. I vote for moving this back to Saint Martin - Cordyph 16:23, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree (and I'm Dutch!) Pascal 16:25, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I will move it back by copying and pasting the content (since most of the edit history is in "Saint Martin" and would be lost by using the "Move this page" function) -- Cordyph 17:33, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The reason is that the island itself is not named Saint Martin. That name belongs to the French side. (If you disagree, please cite any official source that describes the island as being named "Saint Martin", and not the combination of the Dutch and French spellings.) The official line is that the island is referred to by Sint Maarten / Saint Martin or Saint Martin / Saint Maarten. What's wrong with using the correct name for the island, combining the pages, and redirecting the French and Dutch pages to the one combined page? After all, it is one island.

Saint Martin is the English name which should be used for the title. The French name is Saint-Martin (with a hyphen and of course a different pronunciation). --Wik 18:12, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
I disagree. Do you have a reference supporting this statement?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=66600
On the other hand, here is the official French government website: This will not help
http://www.st-martin.org/
And the official Dutch government website:
http://www.interknowledge.com/st-maarten/index.html
Those are tourist sites, not official government sites as far as I can tell. "Sint Maarten/Saint-Martin" is just a way to refer to the island in its local languages. It's like calling Switzerland "Suisse/Schweiz/Svizzera". But in an English encyclopaedia the English name should be used, which is (obviously) Saint Martin. The island was named by Columbus in 1493 after Saint Martin of Tours, long before it was divided between the French and Dutch (1648). --Wik 19:12, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
They are government financed sites, associated with the tourism offices of the respective govts, to the best of my knowledge. Referring to St. Martin/St. Maarten as "Saint Martin" is like referring to North America as the United States, and then including Canada under the US page. "Saint Martin" is not an island; it is a territory that sits on one half of one island. Just because the locals didn't come up with anything easier to spell than St. Martin/St. Maarten does not give wikipedia the right to change it. As it is, this wiki does not reflect the contemporary naming of the island. It is accurate pre-1648 at least. I know firsthand; I have been there a half-dozen times in as many years and worked with the local governments. Thank you and regards.
As a Canadian, I thank you for our distinction! As for Sint Maarten / Saint Martin, there are other notable differences. The currency in Sint Maarten is the Netherlands Antillean Florin / Guilder (NAF), in Saint Martin it's the Euro. (Both sides freely accept the U.S. Dollar, of course.) Electric power is 110v in Sint Maarten, and the European 220v on the French side. Both sides have their own licence plates. Separate governments too, obviously. The capitol of Sint Maarten is Phillipsburg, and Marigot is the capitol of Saint Martin. BTW, We were there for a WONDERFUL vacation last October!TeeEmEll 06:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, some confusion arises from the similarity of the English and French versions. The nuance with the hyphen escapes many people, and so they think it inappropriate to refer to the whole island by what seems to be name of the French half only. And then they use the combined version. But I don't think we have to follow that practice here. --Wik 20:09, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
As you wish. I just thought it would have been proper and polite, if you will, to refer to the island the same way the people who actually live and spend time there do. You will never understand a culture's nuances and sensitivities by reading an outdated version of Britannica.
I noticed, that native english speakers often think, that the inhabitants of a country want english speakers to refer to their country in the inhabitants' language. This is a common misjudgement. There have been lots of talk about different places of the world, where for example someone stated, that Bavaria has to be called Bayern, or Milan should be called Milano, and Moscow is Moskva and so on. In fact noone expects english speakers to change the geographical names in use. I am almost sure, that this is valid for this island as well. -- Cordyph 20:31, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
As a former journalist and editor for newspapers (the Today Newspaper, St. Martin's Week, and All at Sea) on the both the French side of Saint Martin and the Dutch side of Sint Maarten the aforementioned spellings were standard practice (style-wise). The English Caribbean media generally spells it according to which side of the island they are writing about. I personally feel that by having no page title for [Sint Maarten] linked/duplicated is an insult to residents of the Dutch side of the island and the Kingdom of the Netherlands in general. My suggestion would be to duplicate this page at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?Sint_Maarten

Britannica, Columbia and the CIA World Factbook have this article under "Saint Martin":

You are claiming, that Saint Martin is not the name of the island, but just of one part of the island. Does that mean, that the island has no name? It is obvious, that both names are just literal translations of one and the same name. So it is unnecessary to have both names in the title. I would suggest to add a sentence explaining why the form "Sint Maarten/Saint-Martin" is often used - but it should not be in the title. -- Cordyph 20:23, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I stand corrected. I like the idea of putting a sentence on the Saint Martin page. Someone please hug me.
Okay, I do it. (Hug!) I am looking forward to your contributions. -- Cordyph 21:05, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Who wrote the part about the island belonging to the Swedish king? Doesn't it belong both to France and Holland? I cannot find any sources anywhere supporting the statement that the island is the private property of the Swedish king, and have never ever before heard about it, and I am Swedish!

Shouldn't it be taken away? --Konstantin 15:03, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sweden?? Do you think they may have meant the French island of St. Barts instead? CaribDigita 20:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Changed the article

Since it seemed upon closer inspection that the article had been "trashed" on July 30th 2004 by 66.185.84.208, I restored it to the form it had on June the 27th 2004.

I wonder if the person who wrote it thought he was right or just wanted to "trash".... --Konstantin 15:17, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Status aparte (?)

According to my research, the population Sint Maarten voted for a status aparte in the Kingdom of the Netherlands in a referendum in 2000, which was to be granted and implemented in 2002 - but I haven't found anything stating that this status had been granted, and I assume it hasn't, since the flag of the Netherlands Antilles still features five stars, but I haven't found any information on why this status aparte wasn't granted yet, either. Anyone with more in-depth knowledge willing to elaborate? Nightstallion 11:45, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It sounds to me (conjecture!) like nothing will be implemented until all five islands have voted. See http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2004/11/27/future.htm.
Gruepig 03:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- This looks like Saint Maarten already is using a new flag already??? (1)Caribbean Tourism Org. Note the flag Saint Maarten put on their tourism page.
Also according to their minister when they were visiting Saint Kitts. They claimed they've separated already??? (2) Article: St Maarten government looks at St Kitts-Nevis education system. In the second paragraph it's stated "The main purpose of the visit is to gather first hand information for the creation of the best suited Ministry of Education for St. Maarten following a successful separation from the Netherlands Antilles, in which it is a part of with Saba, St. Eustatius, Curacao and Bonaire." Anybody able to shed more info about this? CaribDigita 07:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Here is a recent article on this topic: http://news.caribseek.com/Sint_Maarten/The_Daily_Herald/article_19879.shtml The upshot is that St. Maarten has been in the process of creating their separate-country framework and that seems to be wrapping up. RB McLeroy 16:22, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Border check

The border between the two is marked on maps. Is there any border check for crossing the border? — Instantnood 18:18, Feb 2 2005 (UTC)

Not usually. When I was there about a year ago, there were signs much like you'd see when crossing state lines in the U.S., but the border was not manned. In rare instances (such as after hurricanes), there are border checks.
Gruepig 03:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I can verify; was there August 2005 and the only sign you were crossing from one side to the other was the state of road (dis)repair, signs, and the border marker. RB McLeroy 16:22, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
An interesting point, until Jan.1, 2006, was that a U.S. or Canadian citizen (and no doubt others) could enter Sint Maarten (Dutch Territory, SXM Airport or by sea) with only a Birth Certificate and a photo I.D., but needed a Passport to enter Saint-Martin (French possession, by sea or the small Grand Casse airport). Now, new international agreements require a passport for both. However, as discussed above, no passport or document is required to travel to either side of the island. TeeEmEll 06:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
This would be consistant with the Schengen Agreement, no? - Eric 09:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Both parts of the islands are excluded from the Schengen Agreement. (58.188.97.134 09:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

Independence?

Are you SURE that in 2003 the French side, i.e., St Martin, voted for independence? I can find no references to this. This certainly happened to the Dutch side, and to St Barthelemy, but I can find no mention anywhere of it happening to St Martin. If it did happen, was it part of the same referendum that affected St Barthelemy, or what?

The only reference I've been able to find is the last paragraph of http://www.antilles-info-tourisme.com/guadeloupe/histogb.htm. Also, this article suggests that the vote on St Martin was similar to that on St Barths.
Gruepig 03:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Saint-Martin (the french part), is to become a collectivités d'outre-mer of France as opposed to being an administrative division of Guadeloupe (itself a départements d'outre-mer), and yes, it's similar to St Barths, and no, it's not independance, all those territories are remaining french. Equendil 05:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

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Columbus legend

There's debate as to whether Columbus sighted St. Martin (as opposed to Nevis) on November 11, and it seems to be more of a legend than a fact. See, for example, http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/caribbean/saint_martin/history.htm and http://www.stmartin.com/island.htm. It's possible that Columbus sighted St. Martin but did not name the island or that he sighted it on a later date.

Also, to add to the name confusion, I've added the Spanish name of San Martin.

November 11 or March 23 1648?

The current text read "France and the Netherlands agreed to divide the island on November 11, 1648", but according to the Dutch Wikemedia[1], this is not November 11 but March 23, 1648. - Emvee 28 June 2005 20:38 (UTC)

March 23 is right. Looks like someone got it confused with the date Christopher Columbus landed there. Bollar June 29, 2005 00:46 (UTC)

This article needs to be spilt

I have a feeling that this article will need to be spilt sooner. Both sides of St. Martin are heading down different roads - Sint Maarten wants status aparte; St.-Martin is becoming a COM. This means each side will have their own unique government, different leaders, etc. This will also require country t/plates and I don't two templates would look nice. - Thanks, Hoshie | ] 02:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree completely. Nightstallion ✉ 07:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
So... Will you do it, or should I? —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 12:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I would support the notion of treating the two different political entities in separate articles, but there could still remain a common article for the island as such. Compare with Ireland. -- Domino theory 21:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Ireland is a great example. How does this sound? Saint Martin will be about the island, with Saint Martin (island) as a redirect to Saint Martin, Saint-Martin will be about the French side, and Sint Maarten will be about the Dutch side. (BTW, I find it odd that there's only a recent interest in splitting the article; this seems long-overdue.) --Gruepig 23:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I had exactly this kind of partition in mind, yes. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 17:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Nightstallion as well. I'm not ready to do any spillting yet until real, solid info comes down the pipe. What we have now is mostly rumor and speculation. To me, that's not a strong base for an article. - Thanks, Hoshie | 00:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Sint Maarten is becoming its own nation within the Kingdom as of July 1, 2007; this is all part of the Antilles restructuring. We should have a separate article ready by that time. Radagast 04:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it, why would minor political changes cause a double split of the article ? The island is one as far as history and geography are concerned, subjects such as economy or tourism are going to be awfully similar, even political status is similar, and well, pretty much anything that can be said about Saint Martin as a whole is relevant for both french and dutch parts. If split, there would be a lot of redundant information between Saint Martin (island), Saint-Martin (french), and Sint Maarten (dutch), which is bad, or failing that, short articles that would force the reader to juggle the three entries to extract relevant information, which, in my opinion is equally bad.

Though I think the article could use some reformating, new sections (geography, history, political status and demographics, transportation, culture, tourism, economy, for instance, not necessarily in that order), possibly sub sections where relevant (ie, Political Status and Demographics could have a short introduction, a paragraph or two on information relevant for the island as a whole, then two sub sections for the french and dutch specifics), and it could use a section regarding cooperation between France and Netherland on issues such as border control, police, transportation, defense, etc.

My two euros/guilders Equendil 05:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Recommended car rental

I rent a car (on St Martin/Sint Maarten) every couple of weeks and do so without reservations every time. Telling people to book cars before coming is an some car rentail agency editing wikipedia? Anyway, my experience is car rental agencies try to get my business when I show up and cars are available. Maybe article should be changed? tell me what you think. bye.

No one has responded to that post. I will change the content of page. I rented cars on St Martin twice last week, and as always, did so without reservation. Each time $30 for overnight rental. Day long rental is $25. It's very easy to rent a car.

Opalpa 03:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Only Non-European European land border?

Would it be correct to say that this island presents the only European land border NOT in Europe? Is the Schengen Agreement in force on Saint Martin? What other possibly interesting consequences are there to this situation? Do French citizens arriving from mainland France even need a passport at the airport (separate "domestic" terminal)? Is the airport shared, with both governments having an immigration authority there? How does this work? - Eric 09:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is the ONLY land border between two European countries outise Euope, but no it is NOT the ONLY European land border with a non-European country not in Europe (e.g. see France-Brazil, France-Surinam, Spain Morocco). Yes Schengen Agreement is in force on Saint Martin, but only on the French side, not the Dutch side. Yes, French citizen arriving at Dutch Sint Maarten have to show passport. If they arrive directly at the French side (e.g. by plane from Guadeloupe or Martinique or St.Barths) they do not need a passport. Same as arriving from Paris to Guadeloupe, passports are not needed, ID card is enough.

Hmm I doubt that showing a French ID-card is not enough when arriving on the Dutch side. Saint-Martin is a part of the Netherlands Antilles, which together with Aruba an The Netherlands forms "The Kingdom of the Netherlands". It is true that neither Aruba nor the Netherlands Antilles are part of the EU, but citizenship is one of the things in the Kingdom of the Netherlands that is governed by the Kingdom itself, so there is no seperate citizenship for Aruba or the Antilles. I think that indeed Aruba an the Netherlands Antilles are NOT part of Schengen, but I think that just like in metropolital Netherlands, French citizens only have to show their ID-cards. Maartenvdbent 13:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually I don't think showing a French ID-card is enough but showing a French passport definitely gets you in without any hassle. Speaking of European land, I met an Italian guy who once lived in Canada and L.A that told me that the reason he choose to live on St. Martin was because of the unique combination of benefits: 1) Being able to legally live on the island because he's an European citizen 2)English Speaking: English is the most spoken language on the island and 3)It's the Caribbean. No other Caribbean island has this combination. Stmaarten (talk • contribs) 22:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

What?

From the article:it is the smallest inhabited land mass in the world that is divided between two nations (with the possible exception of a small island in Boundary Lake, between the U.S. and Canada and about twenty other islands around the world) Thats like saying France has the worl;ds largest population except for the twenty other countries ahead of it.Maxflight 15:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Tourist information

I'm removing the following that was added recently :

"Recently, American tourists have been advised by some news agencies to avoid St. Maartin (the Dutch side) as a tourist destination. There have been a number of attacks on tourists and in some cases, the local police do little about them. At the medical school a girl was beaten and almost raped, and the police did not pursue investigation. Two American tourists (associated with CBS) were heavily beaten with a tire-iron outside of a local club named "Sunset Beach Bar", according to the two tourists because they were homosexuals. The police had no interest to take names of witnesses or hear witness accounts. Please see: ABC News Article on Tourist Safety."

  • The whole paragraph is a summary of news stories. Wikipedia is not a news paper. On top of that, articles are not dated so the meaning of "recently" is kind of lost.
  • American tourists "advised" by "some" news agencies ? The scope of this is rather limited. Wikipedia is not a travel guide either, what makes this notable exactly ?

Basically, either crime is notably high on the Island or the dutch side specifically, and the article could state so (with actual sources, not anecdoctical stories), or it's not and the whole thing has no place here. Equendil Talk 15:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Not just because I am living on the island. But it's obvious that anyone who will post such nonsense here might have had some bad experience on the island. That's very selfish and inconsiderate. Try using this forum instead: http://www.thedailyherald.com/

I removed the notation of Zebrabot as the island's official search engine. It isn't; there isn't one; Zebrabot is a private business and it should not appear with the other information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmbcomms (talk • contribs) 16:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Status aparate?

I just have to comment about the flag. St.Maarten has always had that flag but the flag with the 5 stars was used as the netherlands antilles general flag. I should know... I live there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.22.131.68 (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Language

What languages do the locals speak in St Martin and which are official? I suppose St Martin must be the only place on earth where France and the Netherlands share a land border, unless Sint Maarten isn't strictly part of the Netherlands. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 12:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In Sint Maarten, the primary language is English, although the official language is Dutch. And no, Sint Maarten is not a part of the Netherlands, it is a part of the Netherlands Antilles. Kww 14:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Correct the spoken language is English however all legal documentation is in the Dutch language. Strictly, St. Maarten is part of The Kingdom of the Netherlands and as such is an integral part of the Netherlands as declared in "het Statuut 1954 - Kingdom of the Netherlands". "Het Statuut" provides an "autonomous" status to the original 6 islands in the Caribbean (The three Lesser Antilles islands Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao - also called the ABC islands and the three Leeward Islands St. Maarten, St. Eustatius and Saba or the 3-S islands) under the common name Netherlands Antilles. On January 1, 1986 Aruba obtained a Separate Status from the Netherlands Antilles with direct ties to The Netherlands. On December 15 2008, Curaçao and St. Maarten hope to obtain a similar status as Aruba in 1984 while the 3 remaining (BES islands - Bonaire, St. Eustatius and Saba) will become an integral part of The Netherlands (also called a form of Provinces). If the target date of December 15, 2008 will be achieved depends largely if the Judicial, financial and legal infrastructure for St. Maarten and Curaçao can be adjusted befitting the requirements necessary to function as independent "Countries".
According to Prime Minister of The Netherlands, Jan Peter Balkenende, on a current visit (February 13, 2008) to the Netherlands Antilles, the target date of december 15, 2008 will be hard to maintain seeing the amount of work that still needs to be done to acquire "country status". Tommylee31 (talk) 10:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

St. Martin's name is just that........St. Martin !

As a native St. Martiner, I can tell you that the post-columbian and traditional spelling of the name of our island is "St. Martin." Historical and official documents for both parts of the island, for over 300 years, reflect this. I have documents from the 1800s, which clearly show that "St. Martin" was the way the name of our island was written. I dare say that the Dutch/French spelling "St. Maarten/Saint-Martin" was a political decision after the 1920s, and reinforced later as a tourism marketing tool--both identifying colonial division as opposed to the unity in the spelling of the name and how St. Martiners have lived as one people for over 300 years (remember the nation tongue of St. Martin is English, thus the spelling). This is one island. according to one of our old sayings: "The gale does not stop at the frontier.Arisutton 13:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Appropriate terminology for Arawaks

I just got to this page, but when I started to read it, I discovered a missing link for "Arawak" under the "Common History" section of this page. When I looked up that people, I discovered that "Arawak" is a generic term, applied by the Spanish, to whomever they came upon in the Caribbean. Shouldn't this be replaced with a more specific term? And shouldn't it link to a specific group of people? I'd alter it myself, but I won't be able to do any research until I get back from vacation! I'LL DRINK ONE FOR YOU ALL IN ST. MARTIN! Love, Micah —Preceding unsigned comment added by Micahfaulkner75 (talk • contribs) 07:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Smallest island shared between 2 nations

The article on Märket states the same as this article: yet this island is bigger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4rket Could someone correct this please?

St Martin is the smallest inhabited island, Märket is uninhabited according to the article Mhicaoidh (talk) 04:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Correction of the liquor issue

Beer could not have been the drink of choice in 1648 but it would have been "Jenever" or a corn brewed (distilled) strong alcoholic beverage. Anyway is a tourism based tale. A more closer to the truth "tale" is that at the time of the Concordia Treaty in 1648 several French war ships where present accounting for the choice of a smaller landmass by the Dutch while the French where much more interested in watching the British to the North (arch rivals at the time) in the colony of Anguilla while the Dutch where much more interested in the "economic value" of the Salt Pond. Salt in the 17th century was as good as gold and the Dutch where in their Golden Era period where economic expansion was worth more than the land mass issue.Tommylee31 (talk) 23:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Population

This article states the population is 85k (85,000) made up of 50k from St Maarten and 35k from St Martin. I can't find any sources that claim 50k. The two tourist offices claim 41k and 36k (St Maarten office) and 45k and 40k (St Martin office) and they are the highest I can find. The two Wikipedia articles on Sint Maarten and Saint Martin (France) give lower figures and seem to concur with what most websites say. They refer to censuses (censi?!), but those figures are out of date. The US Department of State gives an estimate of 35k for St Maarten, the CIA Factbook estimates 30k for St Martin. Could someone more multilingual than I check out what the respective Dutch and French governments say and give references? Thanks Mhicaoidh (talk) 03:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

By the way, given the massive increase in St Martin (the French side's) population since 1982, it would be useful to clarify between inhabitants and tourists Mhicaoidh (talk) 03:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Independent country

This week's (Oct. 16-22 2010) Economist, page nine: "The Netherlands Antilles, a collection of five Caribbean islands, formally disbanded. Curacao and St. Maarten became independent states, while Bonaire, St Eustatius and Saba were reclassified as autonomous special municipalities. The Netherlands will still handle the islands' defence and foreign oplicy, and at first will oversee Curacao's debt." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.71.112 (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Sint Maarten is only a portion of the island, and is accurately described in the article.—Kww(talk) 23:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Title change

I suggest changing the current title for "Saint Marteen" instead of "Saint Martin". In the bibiography it's most common to find it under that name. 186.125.44.218 (talk) 03:41, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

99 days of thunder?

have not visited yet, but whats 99 days of thunder? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Overseer19XX (talk • contribs) 11:45, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

External Links

I'm changing Dutch St. Maarten official Tourist Bureau from www.st-maarten.com to www.vacationstmaarten.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorifor (talk • contribs) 12:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Timeline in history section too much

The timeline overwhelms the article and seriously affects readability. I think the link to the complete history article is adequate. I've removed it since there is already a summary of the history below it. DIY Editor (talk) 10:19, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 5 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

– The island is not the obvious primary topic, either by popularity or by historical significance. — JFG talk 14:25, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose Saint Martin (disambiguation) → Saint Martin, AND
Support Collectivity of Saint Martin → Saint Martin. Saint Martin island is less significant than the French overseas collectivity of Saint Martin, in my opinion, we can leave the disambiguation page as is, just change Saint Martin to Saint Martin (island) and change the Collectivity of Saint Martin to Saint Martin, so the French territory is treated the same as the neighbouring Dutch territory. ^_- Kenwick (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

flag of saint martin local flag svg

ssseeelllaaa!!! 203.144.81.72 (talk) 05:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Saint Martin category names

There has been a discussion at WP:CFDS about category names related to Saint Martin (island), Collectivity of Saint Martin and Sint Maarten. I would like to get some feedback from editors familiar with the subject on whether the culture, people and society categories should follow the model of Category:French people or Category:New Zealand people. Also category names have not all been updated to reflect the move of this article from Saint Martin to Saint Martin (island). Pinging @Super Dromaeosaurus:, @Fayenatic london: and @Oculi: from CFDS.

I don't see the purpose of "New Zealand people" when we could say "New Zealander people". And I don't have much else to say. It simply seems better to me. Why exclude the demonym? By the way, Saint-Martin with the "-" is exclusively French, otherwise the article of the territory would be "Collectivity of Saint-Martin" and not "Collectivity of Saint Martin", so Category:Saint Martinois people is better here. Super Ψ Dro 14:11, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
"New Zealander" is not an adjective, only a noun; hence we use the form "New Zealand foos", see Wikipedia:Category_names#How_to_name_a_nationality.
We might consider the precedent of Ireland, and have categories for the whole island as well as for each nationality:
Note that these use an adjective where there is one ("Irish"), and otherwise use a phrase.
It could be overkill to create sparsely-populated categories for categories by occupation for Saint Martin (island), so I'd see it as optional to build the equivalent of Irish people by occupation.
On the Dutch side, Category:Sint Maarten people seems fine as it is, e.g. the article Yannick Dinane says he "is a Sint Maarten footballer".
On the French side, two articles Yannick Bellechasse and Yannick Chevalier say "is a Martinois footballer" (no "Saint-"), but six biographies in Category:Saint Martin footballers such as Nicolas Chalmet say "is a Saint Martin [international/professional] footballer".
I would therefore be content to disambiguate the top Category:Saint Martin people to Category:People from Saint Martin (island) and Category:People from the Collectivity of Saint Martin, but leave the rest of the French categories using "Saint Martin people". I acknowledge the partial inconsistency of this outcome, but I think it would be acceptable and the most helpful result. – Fayenatic London 08:48, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
By leaving the categories of the French half use "Saint Martin" we aren't solving any problem. If anything, we should use "Collectivity of Saint Martin". Super Ψ Dro 14:24, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
It strikes me as unnecessarily long-winded to use Category:Footballers from the Collectivity of Saint Martin, or Category:People from the Collectivity of Saint Martin of Dominican Republic descent. But I probably wouldn't formally oppose them. – Fayenatic London 16:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
@Super Dromaeosaurus:, @Fayenatic london:, I have started a full discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 October 21#Category:People from the Collectivity of Saint Martin and welcome your input. Can we agree on Category:Saint Martin (island) people as nominated and keeping Category:Sint Maarten people? TSventon (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Category:Saint Martin (island) people but believe if the move from Saint Martin to Saint Martinois is sucessful, then we should also move from Sint Maarten to Sint Maartener. Let's wait for now until the discussion is over. Super Ψ Dro 13:42, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
The situation with Northern Ireland is different as both Northern Irish people and Northern Ireland people were controversial, so People from Northern Ireland was used. There seem to be five possibilities so far, plus the ambiguous Saint Martin people. Perhaps the nomination needs to list the alternatives.
The usage "Martinois" was put in only recently by User:QQ2NFLD [3] – do you have a precedent for this, please? – Fayenatic London 22:44, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
I've closed Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_October_21#Category:People_from_the_Collectivity_of_Saint_Martin as Category:Saint Martinois people. – Fayenatic London 17:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
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