Talk:Russ Cook

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Length of Africa[edit]

Entire length of Africa inherently means from the most southerly to most northerly point of the continent, which Cook is the first to do, therefore there should be no dispute as to who holds the record as Bourne and Olsen did not complete the full length and therefore are not in contention for this record. There should be no need to call Cook's record the first person to run from the most southerly to most northerly point of Africa - the word 'entire' implies this. Notleviev (talk) 10:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that given the controversies the addition of statement indicating that Cook’s run was between the northerly and southerly extremes is justifiable.

I would also suggest that Cook’s achievement is distinct from the others presented.

It can reasonably be argued Nicholas Bourne is the first person to cross the continent of Africa on foot. That is not mutually exclusive with the statement that Cook is the first person to traverse the length of Africa between its north and southerly extremes on foot.

Such a clarification in no way reduces Cook’s achievement whilst simultaneously avoiding pedantic arguments about the definition of “length” Jaa.eem (talk) 09:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The word 'inherently' is not supported by any science or literature. Geography offers a definition of the length of Africa, which is measured at 8000km (source: Britannica Encyclopedia . There is no distinction such as 'full' or 'entire' length. I assume this distinction has been made in the sole purpose to make a claim of a 'first', where in fact it is undeniable that 2 people have run the length of Africa before. Guinness Book of Records independently verified and ratified the run of the length of Africa by Mr Nicholas Bourne in 1998 (source: Guinness Book 1998 record). And the World Runners Association independently verified and ratified the run of the length of Africa by Mr Jesper Olsen in 2012. Mr Cook's claim has not been independently verified nor ratified by any institution, governing body or books of records. It is purely self-declaratory.

The british press largely relayed the claim of Mr Cook. When pressed by a press release of the WRA to verify that other runners had run the length of Africa prior to Mr Cook, the press immediately found that at least two runners had such runs officially validated. This goes to show that the amount of press behind Mr Russ Cook's claim is not sufficient in itself to transform a claim into a fact.

I chose to nominate this page for deletion, on the basis of absence of any independent verification or ratification of a claim stated as a fact. 2A04:4A43:977F:F7A2:3128:5BC0:889C:116C (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Farcical justification for nominating the page for deletion. Get back under your bridge. 194.233.234.181 (talk) 21:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge of 'Project Africa' in to Russ Cook[edit]

A valid proposal for merger, the mission that Russ Cook embarked on and completed is, while entirely valid in scope of effort and achievement, not relevant enough and could end as a stub. Russ Cook, aka 'Hardest Geezer' should be the main page that Project Africa sits under as a sub-heading. Bigbeanbag (talk) 19:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: There is almost no instance where one is mentioned without the other. Chariotsacha (talk) 22:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Neither are that long and they include information from each other. avalean (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t have strong views on the notability of Project Africa as an individual subject. That said, I’ve increased the length of the article quite substantially since this was proposed and so merging might end up making this article quite clunky. Jaa.eem (talk) 20:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Russ Cook was had a sizeable following before Project Africa, he has also mentioned having a "whole new list of ideas"[1], possibly implying that he wants to do more runs of a similar type. With this being considered it would make sense to have it as a section of his own article, rather than creating new articles for every challenge he completes in the future. SirCake (talk) 15:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Per Chariotsacha, the man and the project he headed are notable for the same reason; one is not notable without the other. Couruu (talk) 11:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A claim is not a fact[edit]

Russ Cook “claims” a record which has, to this day, not been awarded. Records are awarded after claims are independently verified and ratified. This can be done by sports institutions, governing bodies and even Guinness Book of Records. But as long as it is self-awarded, no record belongs to Wikipedia. As of today, 2 officially validated records pre-date Mr Cooks’ run across the length of Africa, even if they are on a different route. I am flagging this page up for deletion if the matter is not acknowledged and corrected. 92.184.104.3 (talk) 17:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mr Cook himself, on television interviews, has acknowledged that other great runs had been done before his in africa. Whoever is editing this Wikipedia page is not helping him being portrayed accurately. 92.184.104.3 (talk) 17:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what sources state (ex. [2]), I think it is fair to say the claim is disputed but that's about it. At this point it is he said/he said/they said. I am going to post a note at WP:WikiProject Sports as well to notify others of this discussion (later today or tomorrow). S0091 (talk) 18:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Facts are:

1- Two official records of running the length of Africa pre-date the run of Mr Cook (Bourne in 1998 validated by Guinness book of records; Olsen in 2010 validated by the World Runners Association)

2- The length of Africa is 8000km this is the science of geography and is verified in the Britannica Encyclopaedia source that I quoted. There is no distinction of “full” or “entire” length of Africa, but simply and factually a length, of 8000km

3- Mr Cook being the 3rd man to run the length of Africa, is in effect the 1st one to have chosen a route that rallies the most southern point to the most northern point.

4- Mr Cook doesn’t hold a record presently, as far as we are aware, none have been awarded officially since Mr Cook completed his run. Therefore, Mr Cook holds “claims” - not records 92.184.104.3 (talk) 18:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is about facts. Not claims.

I expect the page to be deleted if claims are not corrected to reflect actual facts. 92.184.104.3 (talk) 18:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current version of the page is accurate. Cook is the first person to run Africa from the southernmost to northernmost point. He is the only person to have run this route. The claim is disputed and not yet an official record. The page captures both of these points fine.

Note that the repeated references to the World Runners Association in edits/talk are amusing. This is a tiny assocation including Olsen himself. Hardly unbiased - you wonder if it is Olsen on this page himself! 46.208.180.214 (talk) 18:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again : records need to be ratified and awarded, not self-awarded.

and following your own wording : then the claim should be “1st to run Africa from xx to xx” - NOT “1st to run the length of Africa”.

Thank you for acknowledging 92.184.104.3 (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are equal references in my posts to the Guinness and the WRA. Since they are the two official instances who have ratified officially the two previous records 92.184.104.3 (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree claims should not be self-awarded, which makes Olsen's claim - as a member of the so-called WRA even more baffling.

The current revision of the page is accurate. The disputed notice is also accurate until the claim is ratified by an official body (and not a 7 member association awarding themselves). 46.208.180.214 (talk) 20:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a different discussion all together. If you have a problem with the WRA you should address this as a different issue in the appropriate plateform. This topic open is about an unverified claim and un-awarded record. We should stick to the fact of the current matter, which is all this Wikipedia page is about. Get the facts on this page right first, and then fight all the other battles you want to fight. 92.184.104.3 (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not from the WRA and have no connection to it. But it seems fairly evident that since all known world-runners recognise the WRA as the governing body for their sport, then surely that goes towards making the WRA fairly legitimate. But once again, this is not the topic here. So let’s focus on Russ claim - which is to date not validated by any official body or institution or Guinness book. This is the real subject matter on this page and talked 92.184.104.3 (talk) 21:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is absolutely no difference between Russ Cook claiming to be the first to run the length of Africa and the WRA (an organisation of 7 people) claiming that a member of the WRA was the first to run the length of Africa. This strongly reminds me of all the controversies surrounding Twin Galaxies, and the endless lawsuits that have followed.

And for the record, Guinness World Records is not some heavenly body with a god-bestowed power to make records "official". It's a marketing service by which an individual/organisation can pay to make an achievement look more legitimate. If that's your call to authority then you really have no leg to stand on. 131.111.185.176 (talk) 18:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to have a bit of personal vendetta with Russ Cook. Just look af your comment history. Embarrassing. 194.233.234.181 (talk) 21:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Opposing facts and unsubstantiated claims has nothing of a vendetta. It’s called fact checking and it seems that whoever wrote this page was not too bothered about it. 92.184.104.3 (talk) 21:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unsubstantiated? A claim has been made by Cook, evidenced in detail. You’re welcome to get lost in semantics about what qualifies as the length of Africa, but denying the obvious by insisting on a historical definition as opposed to the maximum length of the continent (southern most to northern most) points, again wreaks of a personal agenda. Be better. 194.233.234.181 (talk) 21:30, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise that records have to be verified before becoming official. That’s how it is in all sports. There is simply no sports were records are self declarated. I apologise that the way sports are organised hurt your feelings. 92.184.104.3 (talk) 21:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To wrap this of: I suggest a solution would be to leave out of the article any mention of a “record” until one is officially awarded. If all agree, I am happy to leave it at that. 92.184.104.3 (talk) 07:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Attempt[edit]

I have attempted to summarize fairly what sources state. There does not appear to be a dispute Cook is the first person to run the entire length of Africa from the southernmost to the northernmost point of the continent but centers around the first to run the length of Africa. I hope this resolves the largest issue but welcome feedback. For those who can edit the article, feel free to make tweaks. S0091 (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree as per my comment in the “Length of Africa” section.

I’d suggest that given the clarifying statements and improved sourcing the factual tag should be removed. Jaa.eem (talk) 18:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with both of these comments and edits, which I also think removes the need for the factual tag to be present any further. 46.208.180.214 (talk) 22:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]