Talk:Robert Todd Lincoln/Archive 1

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Does anyone know where he really finished law school? It certainly wasn't the current University of Chicago---the one linked to in the article---which didn't exist at the time. Was there an earlier U of C?

Excellent catch -- I wrote this article originally, and neglected to check my facts. There are numerous sources that allude vaguely to his finishing law studies in Chicago (and several do claim it was "the University of Chicago" or "Chicago university"), but others make no mention of it. As you rightly note, the University of Chicago was founded 30 years too late to be a possibility. Chicago State University was founded in 1867, but it was founded as Cook County Normal School and held classes in 1867 in a boxcar for the 60-odd enrollees....an unlikely place for a Harvard alumnus and the son of the President to finish legal studies. I don't own or have access to a good biography of Robert, if indeed one exists. Can anyone find a good source to either establish what university it was, or else establish that he didn't attend university in Chicago? In the meantime, I'll vague up the entry a little so that it doesn't point to the obviously anachronistic U of C. Jwrosenzweig 22:53, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The U of C had a previous incarnation, based on a grant of land from Stephen Douglas, in the location where it now stands. It went bankrupt pretty soon, and then Rockafeller and Harper brought it back for a second try. They're not officially connected, but they stood on the same spot, and sort of considered part of the same history. They definitely have the same name, for what that's worth. [1] TOO 18:18, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I took a look at Robert Todd Lincoln: A Man in His Own Right by John S. Goff, 1969. I'll quote the relevant section here, and someone with more wikisperience can edit the article appropriately: "Robert Lincoln entered the law office of Scammon, McCogg, and Fuller, located on Lake Street in Chicago....Lincoln studied for over a year learning his chosen profession, and, in addition, he took law courses at the 'old' University of Chicago in 1865 and 1866." The author cites "records in the Archives Library, University of Chicago."
So it looks like he didn't actually get a law degree, and indeed he attended the old U of C discussed by TOO.

Please note, that while it has been correctly stated that the first University of Chicago, chartered in 1857, was built on land donated by Stephen Douglas, the current (second) University of Chicago was not built on the same site. The first U of C failed, in 1886, not only as a casualty of the external economic environment, but also due to its being under subscribed and over mortgaged regarding the monies that were employed for building on the land donated by Senator Douglas. While the new University’s Board was interested in rebuilding on the same site, the land had become too costly. The current University of Chicago, initially funded, in large part, through a grant from John D. Rockefeller, was chartered in 1890 and built, farther south than the original campus, on land conditionally donated and optioned from the prominent store proprietor, Marshall Field. [Nancy E. Albert, A³ & His Algebra (iUniverse, 2005)]

Is there any truth to the story that he was almost killed by a train, but was saved, ironically, by Edwin Booth? --SMWhat 20:40, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't know how to address it. There is no source or citation. I changed it before to state that the guy claimed it. I don't know whether this is myth, entirely made up, or true.--Noitall 19:41, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

lack of sources

This article doesn't cite any sources at all. Boo. Blue Dinosaur Jr 23:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

irony

the story from Bill Stern was that lincoln saved a son of John Wilkes Booth (Anonymous, User:141.151.183.215-added from History Record)

If Stern actually said that (notice no source given and the commentor didn't give his id), he really screwed it up, didn't he? JWB had no children he ever admitted to and there's no record of successful paternity suits. CFLeon 23:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Image side

It is customary for images to direct the reader into and not out of a page. Hence, portraits facing right should (if reasonable) go on the left, and portraits facing left should go on the right. I noticed this imbalance in this article and made the switch. A new editor reverted my change without explanation. I would like to encourage discussion of this matter here. I see no reason why this article should be an exception to good formatting standards. Rklawton 05:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

NYC mayor's shooting

I haven't been able to find any documentation for the assertion that Lincoln was present at the shooting of Mayor William Gaynor, so I've removed the reference and the photo. While the gentleman in the photograph does bear a resemblance to Lincoln, I wasn't quite convinced it was actually him. Can someone can verify that it is or is not Robert Todd Lincoln in that photo? MDolson22 04:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Assassination Witness

Wikipedia says:

After McKinley's death, Lincoln let it be known that he wanted no further invitations from any US president, as three of them had invited him to be present at their assassinations.

That directly goes against this picture of Lincoln with Taft and Harding. Can someone clarify or debunk that he said he'd no longer visit any president?

His brother Jack also reached adulthood

The biography says that of all of Lincoln's children only he reached adultood. His brother Jack died when he was 18 which is the first year of adulthood. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.3.116.180 (talk) 14:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Actually, it was Thomas (aka Tad) who also reached the age of maturity - he died at 18. Jack was Robert's son. Willl change article to reflect this - also made change in Mary Todd Lincoln article about this. 165.189.169.190 (talk) 14:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

RT Lincoln Did Not Witness Garfield Shooting

Robert Lincoln was at the train station in DC when Garfield was shot but he was on the train platform. Garfield was shot in a waiting room. However, Lincoln was at the President's side within a few seconds of the shooting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.233.160 (talk) 13:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

WORLD'S LARGEST!

Does the history.net citation have to have an advertisement in it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.201.156 (talk) 19:15, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

No it should NOT. I removed it.--Doug Coldwell talk 19:38, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

height

The recent movie portrayed Robert as substantially shorter than his father. Is this accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skysong263 (talk • contribs) 05:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Indeed it is. Abraham Lincoln was 6'4", an extraordinary height for his time. Robert took after his mother, who was short and stout, and more than a foot shorter than Abraham. Robert is cited as being 5'10", but I've read that he was significantly shorter, 5'6"-5'8". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.14.70.122 (talk) 23:16, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Edward Booth

  • In Robert Todd Lincoln: "The exact date of the incident is uncertain, but it is believed to have taken place in late 1863 or early 1864, before John Wilkes Booth's assassination of President Lincoln (April 15, 1865)"
  • In Edwin Booth: "The exact date of the incident is uncertain, but it is believed to have taken place in late 1864 or early 1865, shortly before Edwin's brother, John Wilkes Booth, assassinated President Lincoln."

Kind of contradicting... -93.196.241.137 (talk) 05:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

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(The other) Booth save's RTL's life

Someone added this to Assassination of Abraham Lincoln, but it doesn't belong there. I'm parking it here in case someone wants to integrate it into this article:

Edwin Booth, Booth’s brother, saved Robert, from serious injury or even death. The incident occurred on a train platform in Jersey City, New Jersey. The exact date of the incident is uncertain, but it is believed to have taken place in late 1864 or early 1865. Robert Lincoln recalled the incident in a 1909 letter to Richard Watson Gilder, editor of The Century Magazine.

The incident occurred while a group of passengers were late at night purchasing their sleeping car places from the conductor who stood on the station platform at the entrance of the car. The platform was about the height of the car floor, and there was of course a narrow space between the platform and the car body. There was some crowding, and I happened to be pressed by it against the car body while waiting my turn. In this situation the train began to move, and by the motion I was twisted off my feet, and had dropped somewhat, with feet downward, into the open space, and was personally helpless, when my coat collar was vigorously seized and I was quickly pulled up and out to a secure footing on the platform. Upon turning to thank my rescuer I saw it was Edwin Booth, whose face was of course well known to me, and I expressed my gratitude to him, and in doing so, called him by name.

Booth did not know the identity of the man whose life he had saved until some months later, when he received a letter from a friend, Colonel Adam Badeau, who was an officer on the staff of General Ulysses S. Grant. Badeau had heard the story from Robert Lincoln, who had since joined the Union Army and was also serving on Grant's staff. In the letter, Badeau gave his compliments to Booth for the heroic deed. The fact that he had saved the life of Abraham Lincoln's son was said to have been of some comfort to Edwin Booth following his brother's assassination of the president.[1][2]

References

  1. ^ Robert Todd Lincoln: A Man In His Own Right by John S. Goff, p. 70-71.
  2. ^ Edwin Booth Saved Robert Todd Lincoln's Life. History Net. Retrieved on 2011-08-06.
This content is already in the article (almost word-for-word)...). Shearonink (talk) 23:43, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Never mind. EEng 04:19, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Quote from Jan Morris...

In the second paragraph Jan Morris is quoted about RTL being "an unsympathetic bore". This is the only time Morris's scholarship or opinion is mentioned or even referenced in the article - does that sentence really need to be there?

Welsh author Jan Morris wrote that Robert Lincoln "having failed fifteen out of sixteen subjects in the Harvard entrance examination, got in at last and emerged an unsympathetic bore."

Shearonink (talk) 16:33, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

keep. Jan Morris did the research and is a well-established historian with lots of awards. From my reading I would say she represents the consensus view of RT Lincoln.. Rjensen (talk) 19:09, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Recent changes to children's names in infobox

Should they appear to the casual reader as:

Mamie, "Jack"(Abraham Lincoln II), Jessie

or as:

Mamie Lincoln Isham, Abraham Lincoln II, Jessie Harlan Lincoln

or?...
Weigh in here please. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 23:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

my weak preference is for Mamie Lincoln Isham Rjensen (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Changes to “Family and early life” - Relationship with father?

The quotes are factual, but the context is based on personal conjecture of the author. Recent research suggests that the two Lincolns shared a much closer bond than posterity will accept. Could this be altered? Thanks. StarTrekInfo60 (talk) 11:11, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you have pointers to the recent research you mentioned? —ADavidB 15:19, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Sure. I recommend “Father Lincoln: The Untold Story of Abraham Lincoln and His Boys — Robert, Eddy, Willie, and Tad” by Alan A. Manning. Not only does he cite his sources, he’s very careful to separate facts from personal opinion, unlike authors like William Herndon. Manning analyzes each Lincoln boy’s personality and how each one connected with his father.
This is from https://infocus.uwf.edu/history-instructor-explores-lincolns-home-life-new-book/ :
“The timeline Manning created for his book and the primary sources he quotes show that despite what is widely believed, Lincoln’s oldest son, Robert, and Lincoln did not have a strained or distant relationship. That belief has been based on some of Robert’s own statements suggesting that they rarely spent time together. They, in fact, spent a lot of time discussing Robert’s future after college and enjoying time together during family vacations.
So why would Robert want to paint a picture that seemed to create distance between him and his father, or at least give that impression to biographers that he spent so little time with him?
Manning goes on to answer that question based on the research he did for the book.
Robert made statements minimizing his interaction with his father at a time when he was fending off requests for intimate details of his late father’s life. By suggesting to others that he spent so little time with his father that he did not know much about him, he was able to curtail further inquiry by curious biographers.”
So RTL cherished his time with his father, and didn’t like when he was away on business. Few children do. Willie and Tad didn’t either - that’s why they demanded his attention. Also, remember young Robert and Eddie on the train? That sounds just like the White House antics that would come later. RTL had the same exact bond with Abraham as his younger brothers did. We just don’t hear much about it because, to Robert, it wasn’t really the public eye’s business. StarTrekInfo60 (talk) 01:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
StarTrekInfo60 - Your information from Manning's book might indeed be correct but I am reverting your recent changes since the changes do not appear to be in the cited source (Donald, Page 499). If you re-add this info, please provide the information + page & source (and a quote would be nice too). Yes I know it's published etc *but* it does not jibe with most of the published information about Robert Todd Lincoln's relationship with his father so scrupulously sourced would be awesome. (An undated interview about the book and its author doesn't really suffice.) Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
StarTrekInfo60 - You reverted the article to your preferred version without further discussion and you did not provide specific cites/references for your wanted changes that I asked for. Shearonink (talk) 05:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Copyright violations between a .gov source and this article

I have run Earwig's Copyvio Detector and have come across troubling stats of 73%+ probable/possible copyright violations (I also ran it on an earlier version to see if WP might be the source but nope...then I got results of 88%+ possible copyvios!). Now the apparent source material is the Lincoln Bicentennial .gov website so maybe that is all fair access etc BUT we're supposed to say where we got it... I'm going to take a closer look and see what can be done over the next few weeks or so but wanted to mention the issues here on the talkpage first. Shearonink (talk) 07:11, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Now down to 67% possible copyvio with the .gov source. In my opinion other possible copyvios on the list at Earwig's Detector probably either took their "inspiration' from the .gov website or lifted content from WP without giving proper attribution (so am not as concerned with them). Shearonink (talk) 07:46, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
I think I've re-worked the article enough so that copyvios are no longer an issue. If a general copyvio search is run, the present top 3 results - https://www.alincolnbygadorris.com/blog/edwin-booth-robert-lincoln-incident-article-5, http://www.historynet.com/edwin-booth-saved-robert-todd-lincolns-life.htm, and https://drloihjournal.blogspot.com/2020/11/booth-saved-lincolns-life.htmlare - are all about Edwin Booth saving Robert's life and all contain (as does this article) extensive quoting of Robert's letter to the editor about his life being saved by the actor. Shearonink (talk) 23:44, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

Unsuccessful. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Robert Todd Lincoln/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 16:14, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

I'll review this article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):
    Prose is sufficient. Writing is clear with no obvious errors.
    b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    • Significant layout issues. There is little organizational sense to how the sections are divided or the order that they are placed. The family and early life section is a massive stretch of various biographical details, while the career sections are sometimes just a couple sentences. Several paragraphs consist only of one or two sentences. Image formatting needs improvement.
    • There should not be a simple list of times he was portrayed in film. If such a section is to exist, it would need to give a prose description of how he has been portrayed and what its significance is based on reliable sources. A collection of misc trivia like this is also a criterion 3 issue.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a. (reference section):
    Standard reference list with bibliography. There are a whole bunch of duplicate references that should be merged, but that's just a minor cleanup issue. Several of the books could also have links added to their archive.org copies so they're easier to access.
    b. (citations to reliable sources):
    • I looked into Lincoln Bicentennial, and as far as I can tell, it is actually a copy of this Wikipedia article. Looking at c. 2007 versions of the article, it's almost an exact match, so it shouldn't be used as a source.
    • I'm not sure about the Lincoln Collection source on Tumblr. It does appear to be associated with the organization, but it might still be preferable to find a better source.
    • Is there any evidence that the following sources are reliable: abrahamlincolnonline.org, godeke.org, ghostsofdc.org, rogerjnorton.com, deepseawaters.com, etonline.com
    • The Shapell Primary Sources link appears to be dead.
    • All quotations must have inline citations immediately following them. There are a few uncited quotations.
    • Published opinions must have inline citations immediately following them. There are opinions of historians in the Legacy section that are unsourced.
    c. (OR):
    The biggest issue is the section on "presence at assassinations". Without the Lincoln Bicentennial source, the only source connecting them is one throwaway quip from Lincoln. A quick Google search shows several other sources noting the connection, so it should be easy to prove that it's not actually original research.
    I've checked the following sources for source-text integrity. Of the five I checked, all of them have issues.
    • Emerson (2012): 6–7, 10, 100, 114–115, 116–117, 121, 124, 207–209 are good. Page 79 doesn't appear to say that he graduated in 1864. Page 418 doesn't seem to say anything about when they were married.
    • Bell (1981): This source does not specify the time period that it is being used to support.
    • Goff (1968): 68a, 70–71, 88 are good. Page 68 does not support the claim that his mother prevented him from enlisting.
    • Goodwin (2005): This source does not support that they may have reconciled before her death or that she had a stroke.
    • Sobel (1990): This source does not say that the degree was honorary.
    d. (copyvio and plagiarism):
    No apparent copyright violations. Earwig detects only a long quote and a source that copied from Wikipedia.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a. (major aspects):
    There are significant gaps in this biography, with almost all of the information being his college and young adulthood years. There's very little information about his childhood or about his career from the 1870s to the 1910s.
    b. (focused):
    There seems to be undue emphasis on minor details: on assassinations that happened while Lincoln was nearby and on one incident in which he was saved by Edwin Booth.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    No undue weight for or against particular viewpoints. Does not disparage Lincoln or promote him.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    No recent disputes.
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):
    All images are public domain or Creative Commons.
    b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    All images have sufficient captions. I'm not convinced that the images of other people are necessary, especially since they're all thumbnail size.
  7. Overall: This article does not approach the good article criteria due to significant issues with formatting, sourcing, and missing content. It is likely that significant reworking of the article will be needed before it can become a good article. It can be relisted if the issues above are corrected or if any potential nominator feels that this article does in fact meet the good article criteria. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
    Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Responses to the GA Review plus adjustments etc.

2b:

  • abrahamlincolnonline.org is run and edited by Editor: Rhoda Sneller, M.S. & Publisher: Lowell Sneller, Ph.D. - I have found no issues with the scholarship there.
  • Shapell source has been updated.
  • godeke/org is a website for a fraternity that RTL belonged to. I have used instead a cite to the Hildene website and have adjusted the text accordingly.
  • deleted tumblr source, the newsletter article has been substituted.
  • unsure as to the quotations issue mentioned? There is the Mu ch to the embarrassment paragraph, I think all of its quotes are from the sources cited at the end of the paragraph, am working on getting all those quote individually cited.
  • the Lincoln Bicentennial website - it is unclear to me what predates what, if that source mirrored WP or if it is the other way around. Will attempt to ascertain those issues.
  • rogerjnorton as a source is incredibly reliable. It is described in the Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association article "Building a Twenty-First-Century Lincoln Memorial: The Digital Revolution in Lincoln Studies Scholarship" by Samuel Wheeler (held by JSTOR at https://www.jstor.org/stable/26290264) as "Created in 1996 by former history teacher Roger J. Norton The Abraham Lincoln Research Site is well-researched and full of images.
  • will continue to work my way through issues mentioned in the Review. Shearonink (talk) 02:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Moar:
2c:

  • Lincoln Bicentennial reference has been removed, National Park Service article written by Todd Arrington, Site Manager, James A. Garfield National Historic Site in July 2014. That should suffice.
  • Bell 1981- deleted ref, substituted Harvard Register ref.
  • Deleted Ref 34/page 418 of Emerson as being redundant/unneeded.
  • Emerson/Page 79 says he was a member of the Delta Kappa Epsilon fraternity and so that ref has been retained.
  • Will do more later. Shearonink (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Moar:
2b

  • Making no judgement about ghostsofdc as a ref, it has been deleted and other refs substituted.

1b

  • Re: "simple list". This doesn't seem to be a "criterion 3 issue"? 1)The subject has been portrayed multiple times in notable films/TV/plays and 2)these productions have reliable references so I don't understand what the problem might be with including this information. I retained this section with additional info and refs.
  • Shearonink (talk) 17:30, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Moar
1b:

  • "Image formatting needs improvement" - I deleted the photo of Dudley, as being extraneous. I deleted the photo of Lincoln's Washington home/house since it isn't mentioned separately in the text, moved around some others. Hopefully that will be enough.

3b:

  • "minor details"...the problem is that these events are what many sources consider interesting/pertinent about the subject...not sure how to adjust them.

6b:

  • The other people thumbnail images are of the subject's three children, 2 of whom have their own WP articles & Jack's death impacted the subject deeply. Doesn't seem wrong or against GA criteria to include these images.
  • Shearonink (talk) 16:26, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

2b:

  • etonline - a website/source owned by CBS, distributed by Paramount. Reliable for Hollywood/entertainment news, is not cited on Perennial sources page as unreliable.
  • deepseawaters - this seems reliable to me but I am leery of the source since none of the writing is credited to specific people. Have substituted a published book source instead. Shearonink (talk) 17:26, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Moar
3a:

  • Re: The claimed "significant gaps in this biography...almost all of the information being his college and young adulthood years...very little information about his childhood or about his career from the 1870s to the 1910s."
Am unsure about what this section is aiming towards, there is a separate section on Politics and a separate section on Later life and career. Nevertheless, have moved content around, to fit it within the stated sections and within in the timeline of the subject's life, etc.

3b:

  • Presence at assassinations section...in my opinion this should stay. The coincidences are mentioned voluminously in multiple reliable sources.
  • Shearonink (talk) 17:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Moar
1b:

  • "There should not be a simple list of times he was portrayed in film. If such a section is to exist, it would need to give a prose description of how he has been portrayed and what its significance is based on reliable sources. A collection of misc trivia like this is also a criterion 3 issue."
I know I've mentioned 1b before but I really do not understand where in criterion 3 it states that there "should not be a simple list" And then the subsequent "If..." And then characterizing this information as misc trivia. All of these projects are either notable in their own right or have notable cast and all the entries are sourced.

Moar
2b:

The Foundation has partnered with both private and governmental institutions, such as the New-York Historical Society, the Smithsonian, the Library of Congress, the U.S. National Archives, the Morgan Library and Museum, the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library, the Oregon Historical Society, the National Library of Israel, and various presidential and private libraries.

Moar
3a:
Review: "There are significant gaps in this biography, with almost all of the information being his college and young adulthood years. There's very little information about his childhood or about his career from the 1870s to the 1910s."

  • I think 3a's conclusion is in error. There's the Family section with the subsections of "Marriage and children" and "Relationship with Mary Todd Lincoln". Marriage and children covers his life from his marriage in 1868, and his family life. Relationship with Mary Todd Lincoln covers when he had his mother institutionalized in 1871 up unil her death. There's the Politics section. The Secretary of War (1881–1885) subsection has information about Lincoln's time as a local Chicago official in the 1870s, plus serving as Secretary of War & other matters until 1887, Republican politics & Minister to the Court of St James covers the time from 1884-1912/1889-1893 and his time at Pullman from before 1897 until he retired in 1924 is covered extensively in the Later life and career section.
  • Most of the content I have mentioned above was already in existence in the version of this article that received the GA Fail, about the only changes I put into place were to adjust the layout & sections.
  • Shearonink (talk) 15:56, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Last thoughts:

  • This is mostly about 1b and the list of Cultural depictions. If this list is somehow against GA criteria, I have no problem adjusting it to a different form, I just remain unsure as to what form/format be a GA improvement.

Done. Shearonink (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

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