Talk:Ring shout

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the Stearns writing in Jazz dance[edit]

"Perhaps the best-known example of African survival in the United States is the Ring Shout, derived fromt the African Cirlce Dance." see page 29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve Pastor (talk • contribs) at 16:10, 17 July 2008

But what is the "African Circle Dance"? I haven't found a reference to it. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.alokli.com/site/dances/dances.html refers to some African circle dances. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:27, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. This is interesting, but it does not refer to the ring shout. -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 05:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to repeat Matisse's question, now that the quote is in the article. What is "the African Circle Dance"? Is there a definition in Stearns? A note citing another source? -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 20:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This url provides information about the circle dance. It was edited out of this article shortly after I put it in. I found it in the history. [1] You have to scroll down the page a bit. I have come across other descriptions. If you support this being included in this article, either state your support here, or reinsert it yourself. I think it's a no brainer. Steve Pastor (talk) 23:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is better than nothing, definitely. I have been combing my books, looking. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There should be other references then, wouldn't you think? —Mattisse (Talk) 23:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just found another in Jazz Dance, but am out of time here, and won't be back until Sunday in all likelihood. page 123 here's a url [2] Steve Pastor (talk) 00:09, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That one is very interesting, but not as specific in terms of origins. The "cakewalk" is very interesting, also. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From what I've learned so far, African Circle Dance is a catch all description sort of like line dance. Any dance performed in a circle could be called a circle or ring dance. Is any one of these many dances THE circle dance that lived on as the ring shout? I don't think so. One step at a time. Steve Pastor (talk) 00:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

O.K. I notice that "circle dance" is a very popular dance in general, not just Africans, but various ethnic groups, as well as just people "in general", going by Google. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I am very interested in whether or not, and when, men and women began mixing in the circle or "ring". African dances I know about, where very specific descriptions are made, often spell out different roles for men and women, or even exlcusion because of gender. Check African dance, and Maasai for examples. This does not conform to our current views, and is often glossed over. If anyone comes across information on this topic, (are there traditional African dances where men and woman do the same steps, and mix freely, and how common was this) please share.Steve Pastor (talk) 00:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC) Saw text on when partnering began in Europe. Also, Africans did not hold hands, but Europeans did. Etc, Have it book marked. Gotta go. Will be back. Steve Pastor (talk) 00:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing previous discussion[edit]

For reference, there is a discussion relevant to this article at User talk:Steve Pastor.

I am concerned that this article not become a platform for cooking up speculative theories about the African origins of the ring shout. Citations should be to work that deals specifically with the ring shout, not with any dance that happens to involve black people moving in a circle.

Wikipedia has standards. If you haven't already, see the Five Pillars of Wikipedia. It may sound boring, but we're here to summarize what is known, not to come up with original ideas. Is everyone OK with that? If so, I suggest we stop capitalizing "African Circle Dance," leave the Maasai and Shona dances alone, and get back to the main topic. -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 16:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Looking through my books, I have several that discuss ring shouts: Sterling Stuckey, Slave Culture:Nationalist Theory & the Foundations of Black America; Samuel A. Floyd, Jr., The Power of Black Music: Interpreting its History from Africa to the United States; Amiri Baraka, Blues People:The Negro Experience in White American and the Music that Developed from it. Also, Charles Keil in Urban Blues makes it clear that there is little that can be known about specific African roots for any African American music for various reasons. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

don't really like this addition[edit]

So, maybe you should reconsider inclusion in the article?Steve Pastor (talk) 00:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps. What I really need to do is buckle down and read the information on the Ring shout, which is a fair amount. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This book has a great deal on African and African American circle dances and ring shouts:

Stuckey, Sterling (1987). Slave Culture: Nationalist Theory & The Foundations of Black America. New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 425 pages. ISBN 0-19-504265-4. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

—Mattisse (Talk) 16:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After first introducing on Wikipedia quite some time ago info on the ring shout in other article(s)/discussion page(s) and information on P. Sterling Stuckey's Slave Culture: Nationalist Theory and the Foundations of Black America,[[3]] I was pleased to see that someone had started an article on the subject. I'm just getting around to visiting the page, and I was disappointed to find the explanation of the phenomenon as having originated by enslaved Africans in the New World. This is certainly not the case. I've corrected the wording to reflect the truth. There are other sources as well, easily retrievable online. Simply Google: "African dance counterclockwise," or knowledgeable sources (not mirror Wikipedia sites that merely repeat the disinformation contained in the article here) on "ring shout." deeceevoice (talk) 16:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Deecee. Please help make the article better by including those references in the article. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't spend much time on Wikipedia anymore. I only came here because I referred someone to this article on the Jazz talk page. Still, I may get around to it. Maybe not. deeceevoice (talk) 03:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unless and until we have a reference, I'm removing the "Black Africa" part of the lead paragraph.

I do not see how or why any "African dance counterclockwise" should be lumped together with the ring shout. That seems reductionist. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 22:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Replying to the comment when the change was first made: important correction in fact. the ring shout didn't begin in the New World; it is African in origin. How else wd it b practiced by Blacks in the West Indies & in the U.S.? (Duh.)

Answer: Because African American culture was innovative. It did not simply preserve elements of African cultures; it blended and adapted stuff — not least because Africans came to the Americas from widely different African cultures, with different languages, religious practices, etc. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 22:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]