Talk:Primitivism

Page move(old)

The contents of this talk page were moved to Talk:Anarcho-primitivism.

I think that this page should be titled Primitivism (art) and the Anarcho-primitivism page should simply be titled primitivism.

• I disagree. Parenthetical disambiguation should only be used when absolutely necessary. -Silence 23:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

primitive

I am unsure how the relationship between this page and primitive should be handled. Perhaps they should be merged, or switch places? Their pretty much the same concept... We need more content on "primitives" (pre-agrarian people), since IMO thats the primary usage of these terms... ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 5 July 2005 02:36 (UTC)

Well, IMHO the pages ought to be merged, since otherwise people will edit the two versions and they'll fork. Since the talk page points to anarcho-primitivism, i'll have a go in the next few minutes, merge the two texts, and put the merged version on anarcho-primitivism. i'll then make primitism into a redirect.

How does that sound? Boud 21:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. But i made primitivism into a disambiguation page. Artists can also be primitive, so it seems :P. Boud 22:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Primitivism?

Could someone point me to the right articles?

Chronological primitivism (earliest stage better than later stage,), Cultural primitivism (“natural” condition of mankind best ... seems close to anarcho-primitivism but I'm unsure), Hard primitivism (best without arts and sciences), and Soft primitivism (best when life is without toil)

Thanks. J. D. Redding 17:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

These categories are from Lovejoy and Boas's great study: Primitivism and Related Ideas in Antiquity (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press, 1935; reprinted by Octagon Books in 1965).

See also: Lois Whitney, Primitivism and the Idea of Progress in English Popular Literature of the Eighteenth Century (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins UP, 1934)

An article about Primitivism in Early America and it's sources in ancient Roman poetry, Christianity, and Greek Stocism is Nanette C. Tameris', "Sibi Imperiosus: Cooper's Horatian Ideal of Self-Governance in The Deerslayer"(Villa Julie College) Placed on line July 2005 http://external.oneonta.edu/cooper/articles/suny/2003suny-tamer.html retrieved October 16, 2008.96.250.30.152 (talk) 02:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia definitely needs entries on the Idea of Primitivism and the Idea of Progress. That would clear up a lot of the confusions that appear in articles about these topics.Mballen (talk) 21:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I have since discovered that Wikipedia has articles on Social progress, Social regress, and Decadence. (There is an awful lot of scholarship on the "idea of progress" --the great scholar J. B. Bury wrote a book of that title c. 1909 and it is on google books). These ideas are related to the phenomenon of Primitivism. Then there were those that thought history was cyclical -- progressing and declining in cycles. Vico was one of these, and Rousseau may have been, though I am not sure of this. It is a simplification to call Vico a Primitivist, but he did feel that primitive poetry had been best. As far as Decadence, theories of decadence abounded at the same time that Gauguin and others were painting and collecting tribal art. At any rate, Primitivism occurs when people feel threatened by Decadence/ or by what other people consider "progress" (i.e., a glut of consumer goods, widening inequality, rapid change, and instability). There is a desire to get back to roots/and or to discover roots. Some contributors to Wikipedia and writers of all sides of the political spectrum, but mainly those defending the status quo (or what they take to be the status quo ante), have concentrated on why they think Primitivism is "wrong". For them Primitivism (and anthropology in general) lead to or are aspects of Moral relativism and Cultural relativism, the bête noires of Conservatism. This is not a helpful approach in understanding the phenomenon, in my view, and I believe it contrary to the criteria of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mballen (talk • contribs) 16:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

It is not at all clear to me that the section on "Primitivism and the Construction of the 'Other'" is necessary to this article. It seems to me to be a survey of Solomon-Godeau's criticism of Gauguin followed by a three sentence paragraph that dismisses her criticism. I assume the two paragraphs have different authors, but the fact that someone felt the need to add the second paragraph seems to me to indicate that the first is not sufficiently impartial. I can imagine a useful section on "Critiques of Primitivism in the Visual Arts" that would briefly explain the principles behind Solomon-Godeau's critique of Gauguin, perhaps with a brief reference to Gauguin's work by way of example. The important part, though, would be the principles that provide the rationale for the post-colonial critique of primitivism (e.g., idealization of non-Western cultures by Western artists, etc.), not the specific example of Gauguin. As that section currently stands, Gauguin seems to be the focus, which makes it seem only vaguely relevant to the rest of the article.Buddiestothemax (talk) 17:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Not moved. —Centrx→talk • 05:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The content of this page should be moved to Primitivism(Art), with this page becoming a Disambiguation Page. I would also recommend moving Anarcho-Primitivism to Primitivism(Social Philosophy) or s/th similar, as a) most Anarchists would disagreee with Anarcho-Primitivism called so and b) the founders of this social philosophy themselves called it "Primitivism".--83.189.52.78 14:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• If moved, it should be to Primitivism (art). No vote from me about the need for a move, just a vote on the name if moved. Vegaswikian 16:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose: Primitive is already a disambiguation page with both this page and Anarcho-Primitivism included. Those are the only two current pages with '-vism' in the title so a separate dab page is not needed. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I'm not sure if I agree with the third characteristic of primitivism: 3. Abstraction of the figure, particularly facial and bodily proportions. Inspired by "non-Western" arts, particularly African masks. Occidental primitivist artists falsely assumed African artists were interested in producing abstract representations. Reason:

Visual Abstraction: African artworks tend to favor visual abstraction over naturalistic representation. This is because many African artworks, regardless of medium, tend to represent objects or ideas rather than depict them. Even the so-called portrait heads of Ile-Ife in modern day Nigeria, usually thought of as naturalistic representations of rulers, have actually been smoothed and simplified in an effort to abstract and generalize stylistic norms. [2] Ancient Egyptian art, also usually thought of as naturalistically depictive, makes use of highly abstracted and regimented visual canons, especially in painting, as well as the use of different colors to represent the qualities and characteristics of an individual being depicted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_art

It's offensive that false data is being included in such an article.

African artists interested in producing abstract representations is a false assumption by primitivists?

I'm not sure if I agree with the third characteristic of primitivism: 3. Abstraction of the figure, particularly facial and bodily proportions. Inspired by "non-Western" arts, particularly African masks. Occidental primitivist artists falsely assumed African artists were interested in producing abstract representations. Reason:

Visual Abstraction: African artworks tend to favor visual abstraction over naturalistic representation. This is because many African artworks, regardless of medium, tend to represent objects or ideas rather than depict them. Even the so-called portrait heads of Ile-Ife in modern day Nigeria, usually thought of as naturalistic representations of rulers, have actually been smoothed and simplified in an effort to abstract and generalize stylistic norms. [2] Ancient Egyptian art, also usually thought of as naturalistically depictive, makes use of highly abstracted and regimented visual canons, especially in painting, as well as the use of different colors to represent the qualities and characteristics of an individual being depicted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_art

It's offensive that false data is being included in such an article.

Nietzsche a primitivist?

I have not read near enough of Nietzsche to be certain that this assertion does not belong in this article (and I know he changes his mind a few times), but I cannot really see how Nietzsche could have been a primitivist. He was as critical of the way things were as he was of the way things were going. Someone who knows might change this unless someone who knows is who put it in there.66.183.215.141 15:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know very much about Nietzsche, but if, like many people in the late nineteenth century, he thought that civilization was in decline, he could well have been considered a primitivist -- a "hard primitivist" (to use Boas and Lovejoy's classification), probably, who thought things had gotten too soft, or were in danger of getting too soft. There are many different kinds of primitivism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mballen (talk • contribs) 01:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Updating the "see also" links

A lot of these links have more to do with anarcho-primitivist philosophy and almost nothing to do with primitivist art.Clockwrist (talk) 02:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this article ignores the existence of a large body of scholarship on this topic, beginning with A. O. Lovejoy and George Boas's magisterial Primitivism and Related Ideas in Antiquity (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press, [1935] reprinted by New York: Octagon Books, 1965).

Another good starting place is Erwin Panovsky's famous essay "Et In Arcadia Ego" published in collection Meaning in the Visual Arts, 1955. 96.250.138.19 (talk) 22:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

See also Lovejoy, A. O., 'The supposed primitivism of Rousseau's "Discourse on Inequality"' in his Essays in the History of IdeasN.Y, 1960. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.30.152 (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)