Talk:Pre-Code Hollywood/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Hays Office/Breen Office

I believe it was called the Hays Office more than it was called the Breen Office. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.152.105.200 (talk) 02:11, 21 July 2006‎ (UTC)

Race Relations

The sentence about Southern Protestants and race relations seems tendentious. I doubt that it would have occured to anyone to make a film about miscegenation in that era. The "true state" of race relations in that era, South and North, was nuanced and complex; it would be more accurate to say that films tended to present an oversimplified, stereotyped, and paternalistic view of race relations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.152.105.200 (talk) 02:11, 21 July 2006‎ (UTC)

Did the code explicitely forbid showing blacks as main characters? Today's "lemonde" newspaper is claiming that and the wikipedia's section about "back bellboys" does also suggest this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.235.59.230 (talk) 07:59, 1 June 2007‎ (UTC)

1930

Um, I'm not sure that the pre-code era began in 1930. There were a great many risque films made in the 1920s, some silent, some not. The Broadway Melody of 1929, which won the Oscar for best picture, includes references to homosexuality, drunkenness and some skimpy outfits. If there's some reason why pre-1930 films have been excluded from this page, a reason should really be given. Since the need for a production code emerged in the 1920s, it seems that the early risque films should be mentioned here, as on-screen behaviour brought on the code as much as off-screen antics did. Wencer 22:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Wencer above, at least on the need to include behavior prior to 1930, since it is the impetus for the code that is first written in 1930 and then finally vigorously enforced in 1934. I personally don't see the necessity of the Code, even at the time, so I don't agree with the above comments in that aspect. However, I do recognize that at the "event horizon" there is always a precursur of activities that have driven the event to the surface. So to start coverage with 1930, is a bit intellectually irresponsible. Stevenmitchell 08:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah really, there are silent movies (in their uncensored forms) which are worse than most "pre-code". In Foolish Wives and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde there's profanity. Anyone ever seen Haxan? That documentary/movie's incredible, I'm not surprised that it was banned in several cities. JungleMouse5644 (talk) 12:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that at least some producers & directors were reacting to the Code before 1934, both unironically and jokingly. For example: Implicitly, the code forbade a man and a woman from sharing a bed on screen; in The Thin Man (film) (released in 1934) Myrna Loy and William Powell are a married couple in separate beds, and in Duck Soup (1933 film) Harpo Marx shares a bed with his horse, while his woman friend is in a separate bed. Acwilson9 (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Jeremy Butler

Who is Jeremy Butler to delete anything from this page, much less almost half of the page b/c he deems it "too long"?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.194.2.108 (talk) 14:32, 10 April 2006‎ (UTC)

OK, Ali

I'm here, Ali, waiting to discuss why some ass*** from Alabama thinks he can gut half my article.

I don't see anyone waiting to discuss, so I'm editing, now!!! Brandubh Blathmac 19:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Of course you are, Robert. It's not like you actually collaborate with other editors, now is it? How can anyone take you seriously when you're so insulting? - Ali-oops✍ 21:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Ali: any excuse whatever not to admit to the censorious doings of your countrymen, especially Demiurge, the boilerplate who thinks he is the new Cardinal Spellman. I no longer believe you are at all different from your countrymen in any regard, and am no longer interested in you at all. Stop harrassing me through Wikicyberspace. Unfortunately I cannot sign in since this might extend the block that GraemeL. (one of those "useful idiot" of whom Lenin spoke who has joined forces with the "Irish-Scots" fifth columnists and Irish censors) put on me like a coward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.194.0.15 (talk • contribs)

  • Still crying about censorship, Robert? Maybe if you tried working with other editors instead of pushing your opinion and yours only, then you might get a better response. I've better things to be doing than "harrassing [you] through Wikicyberspace", so don't flatter yourself. Post sectarian nonsense and I (and many others) will revert. - Ali-oops✍ 15:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You can call the history behind film censorship in America "sectarian POV" because it does not redound the way you want it to??

You didn't mind what I inserted re conservative Southern Protestants and their own censoring of films re race relations and miscegenation. I did not cite any sources and yet -- miraculously --no complaints from any Irish Wikipedians.

The fact is that the Roman Catholic church was behind movie censorship, and obviously, as such, the Irish were involved (Breen, Quigley, etc.) and anything that could be questioned (except for the above re Protestants which no one complained about) has been sourced and cited. You are absolutely beyond disgraceful and shameful. When sources are demanded and I cannot provide them I accept that any edits based on material that cannot be sourced may be deleted. But for you to try to get away with gutting half a page of sourced, cited, quoted material b/c you (and/or your master) personally don't like it is unacceptable, as is relying on an ass**** from Alabama and a boilerplate censor to do your dirty work for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.194.0.15 (talk • contribs)

  • Your growing paranoia knows no bounds. Quit with the personal attacks and you may fare better. Stop using sock-puppets to promulgate your POV. Oh, and grow up - Ali-oops✍ 15:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by sockpuppets. I told you I couldn't sign in b/c of fear of extending a block. That is not sockpuppetry. Wikipedia expressly permits people to edit w/o signing in. If I could sign in right now I would, but I am not going to risk being reblocked when I never should have been blocked in the first place. Has Demiurge or yourself been blocked for 3rr lately (or worse, some boilerplate b***s*** excuse)?

Why should I act against my own interests, just to please the would-be wannabe censors?? That my computer (my home PC, the same computer I always use) sometimes apparently allows me to redit earlier than the block expires is not my fault. I am not a computer scientist, like your buddy Camillus, and I don't understand these things.

And I dismiss anything you have to say about POV in light of the above. 216.194.58.76 00:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi yet again, Robert. Why are you being blocked in the first place? Could it be because you refuse to co-operate with other editors? Vandalise userpages? Get into silly revert wars? Continually push sectarian POV? Maybe that's why all this has gone to WP:RFAR. Now, other than your berating of other editors, was there something you wanted me to respond to here? - Ali-oops✍ 06:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent Edit

Howdy 70.19.67.28 00 ! You don't seem to have a talk page, so I've responded to your comment regarding my recent reversion of your edit on my own talk page, where you posted. Hope that's ok.

Oh, and while I'm here, would anyone care if I alphabetized the list of Pre-Code actors? It's really bothering me that they're all haphazard and such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wencer (talk • contribs) 04:39, 20 April 2006‎ (UTC)

  • It's Robert again - this time with another IP address. Alphabetising sounds useful. I'd say go for it! - Ali-oops✍ 06:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Done and done. Regarding the lengthy quotation: I generally dislike long quotations given that Wikipedia is not an essay but simply a resource. If this information is too be included, could someone work on a paraphrasing? The first sentence of it is a sentence fragment, too, which bothers the hell out of me. Also - is this information not more appropriate to the article on the Code itself? The Pre-Code article should be explaining the lag between the creation of the code and its enforcement... information indicating the motivations behind the Code itself belong in the Code article. Included here, the quotation in question misleads readers into thinking that the years before the Code was enforced are the ones filled with dogma and private censorship, when the rest of the article is explaining that the term refers to the period BEFORE such things became pervasive. I realize that the persistent inserter of this particular piece is determined to leave it in, but perhaps it would be better to move it to the Code article, or at least re-work it heavily because its presence here is rather misleading in its current form. Wencer 21:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Censorship

It seems to me that everything under the headline "censorship" doesn't belong in this article, but rather in the article for the code itself. This article is on "pre-Code," and what the term indicates: specifically, films in the late 20s and early 30s of a risque or graphic nature which made it to release because the code wasn't being enforced. Once the pre-Code era came to a close in 1934, there is nothing else to be said pertaining to "pre-Code" other than renewed interest or attention to the films in question. All the information about 40s, 50s or 60s film is irrelevant to this article, and belongs in other articles. If no one objects strenuously, I will move all the information accordingly the next time I have a few hours available. Wencer 23:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Biblical epics

I have removed the phrase "such as Biblical epics (frequently directed by Cecil B. DeMille)" as an example of what kind of film was encouraged by the enforcement of the Code. DeMille's Biblical epics were directed either before the Code was written or enforced—The Ten Commandments (1923), The King of Kings (1927) and Sign of the Cross (1932)—or long after—Samson and Delilah (1949) and The Ten Commandments (1956). There were no other "Biblical epics" in the 1930s or 1940s.—Walloon 04:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed a still image from Birth of a nation (1915) for the same reason. 50.101.244.144 (talk) 02:51, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
And I have restored it, as the film is from the pre-Code period. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:10, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
The Pre-Code period as defined in the article lasted from 1929 to 1934. The Birth of a Nation was released in 1915. About 14 years before the period started.
It is also a silent film, while the article covers sound films of the 1920s and 1930s. Dimadick (talk) 07:45, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Both points are accurate, and I failed to consider them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:23, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Some

The article credits the Hays Office to base motives like the "Great Depression". Some things never change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.206.96 (talk) 14:49, 13 March 2007‎ (UTC)

Libertine vs. Liberal

According to this online dictionary, the adjective-form of "libertine" has three definitions, one of which applies specifically to religious matters (not entirely the context in which it would be used here), and another one of which is noted as "archaic." The accepted definition, then, is #4, which is connotating "dissolute" and "licentious." The term "liberal" has the same denotative meaning but without these specific implications. If anybody wants to rewrite passages so that neither word is used that's fine; otherwise, changing the word to "libertine" seems almost like vandalism. Wencer (talk) 16:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The Mummy

I just added "The Mummy" (1932); there's no way its themes of black magic and reincarnation (coupled with Zita Johann's dress) would have passed the Breen office. Stuthehistoryguy 08:40, 1 December 2008

Remember, in the code, it says that evil and crime may be portrayed as long as it is shown to be wrong. I don't think that simply portraying the evil would be a problem. Legalthis322 (talk) 23:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Stars section

What's the benefit of this listing? Wouldn't it be more fruitful to mention actors whose careers actually got crippled by the code rather than summon up every big shot of the 20s and 30s? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.180.68.33 (talk) 10:56, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Understood

I'm no english major, but doesn't the term understood (section censorship) suggest that the problem in question actually is a fact? Martinor (talk) 13:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

List cruff

I moved these exhaustive lists to the talk page and will incorporate some of their info later. Maybe a list could be made out of them. Quadzilla99 (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Popular pre-Code stars

Notable pre-Code films

1929

1930

1931

1932

1933

Claudette Colbert in Cleopatra. It took a number of years for the studios to begin to take following the Code seriously.

1934

GA nom

OK, I've done a ton of work on this and think its ready for a GA evaluation. I'm still going to add a huge amount more for an FA attempt later on, but I think it definitely meets the GA criteria right now. Quadzilla99 (talk) 21:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Some sources

The following are some sources that can be used to work on this article: Quadzilla99 (talk) 22:30, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

hays article:[1]
kissin:[2]
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