Talk:Philippe Pétain/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Mutiny 1917

This section has to do with his elevation to commander-in-chief. The mutinies are part of the reason for that. He did not participate in the mutinies, as the heading might suggest. The heading should be changed to "1917 - Commander-in-Chief" Rmrwiki (talk) 15:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Contrary to popular myth, the mutinies actually began after Petain's promotion, not before (although they were not of course his fault). Nivelle was ousted because he had lost the confidence of the French government and the Army Group Commanders (Petain being one of them) over whose heads he had been promoted, and his position was already barely tenable even before his offensive kicked off. I don't really have an opinion on what the section should be called.Paulturtle (talk) 01:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC) A brief glance at the page on the mutinies suggests that disturbances (at any rate the ones of which written record survives) began during Petain's brief stint as Army Chief of Staff and then really booted off within a few days of his promotion to C-in-C.Paulturtle (talk) 01:16, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Untitled

Shouldn't this article be under Henri-Philippe Pétain rather than Marshall Pétain, which could be a redirect? Do other military commanders have their rank in their article? -Scipius 07:37, 30 July 2002‎ (UTC)

No -- this is nearly as silly as having "General Eisenhower". --mav

Ooops - I'll fix it. -- Hotlorp

Now someone's made it bad again... half changing it to the unhyphenated version... Now all fixed to Henri-Philippe Pétain. -- Hotlorp

He's generally known as Philippe Pétain in France, and, even more commonly, as Marshal Pétain. David.Monniaux 17:49, 17 February 2005 (UTC)

We don't put articles of people under military commander names. He should stay at Philippe Pétain. john k 19:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That I agree with. But certainly not at Henri-Philippe (nobody calls him that way). David.Monniaux 07:33, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

POV

I'm taking out the POV tag until the person who put it there bothers to explain why they did. --71.112.231.198 07:29, 30 June 2005 (UTC)

-I did explain, if you had bothered to read my reason in 'History'. Antman July 1, 2005 03:17 (UTC)

I think the claim that Petain never resisted collaboration with germany makes this article POV. The phrase "took the initiative to collaborate" is factually dubious, and screams "POV." Also not mentioned is the onset of gerontological problems during Petains tenure as head of state, including the possible onset of senility. Overall this article is very poor quality, nto fleshed out, and needs to be improved. p97dav45 16:07, 5 January 2006‎ (UTC)

Marshal of France

At the end of the WWI section it says "After the war ended Pétain was made Marshal of France on 21 November 1918." In the Between the wars section it states "and was made a Marshal of France at Metz by President Raymond Poincaré on 8 December 1918." Both dates are referenced but off-line sources. Could somebody please clarify which on is the correct date? Thanks you, Calistemon (talk) 03:54, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Without any books open in front of me, I would guess that the latter date is the formal ceremony at which he was given his baton in the presence of Foch, Weygand, Haig, Pershing et al. A famous photo of the ceremony survives. But that's just a guess.Paulturtle (talk) 04:16, 26 September 2016 (UTC) Charles Williams does indeed say 8 December was the formal presentation of his baton, as does the brief 1990s Atkin biog. So I've amended the text accordingly. The previous date may be when he was told of his impending promotion, or when it legally took place, but I couldn't say.Paulturtle (talk) 15:18, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Biographer's words

In the section titled "Imprisonment and death", there's the following reference:

"many of them 'self-proclaimed heroes of the Resistance' in the words of biographer Charles Williams"

Why is this included? This seems to be a blatant attack on the members of the court that tried Pétain. In any case, a biographer's point of view is, more than likely, to be biased. If the validity of the court is in question, it should be addressed directly, not in an underhand manner as such. In any case, the earlier section (Trial in High Court) does address the shortcomings of the court.

My two cents. Thanks. Todd (talk) 20:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

It's referring to the French Cabinet, not the court. They had the medical reports a few years after his imprisonment, which were pretty clear that Petain ought to be in a geriatric ward rather than in prison, but were unwilling to court unpopularity by acting on them. I assume you are aware that many French people, especially those in public life, for one reason or another exaggerated their role in the Resistance. There is no reason to assume the writer to be "biased". If you can find another authoritative book which gives a different viewpoint, e.g. claims that the French Cabinet all had distinguished war records and despised Petain for that reason, feel free to add it.Paulturtle (talk) 12:05, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:36, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I switched the image, but why bother to delete the smaller one?-- Work permit (talk) 06:31, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
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