Talk:Opera/Archive 4

English language opera

I'm slowly easing myself back into WP and see that I've mostly missed a very busy period opera-wise. I'm glad to see that this article is at last being reorganised along the lines I argued for over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera, with plenty of "main articles" elsewhere. What currently sticks out like a sore thumb is the English Opera section. First, I think it ought to be called English-language opera, like the German section. That would enable us to avoid having to have sections or articles on Welsh, Irish, Scottish opera and to incorporate American and other English-language operas. Second, there obviously ought to be a "main article". I see that English opera, a rather puny article, exists, but is anyone working on this or a retitled version? (I note that Moreschi has edited it recently). If so, can I help? If not, can I volunteer? --GuillaumeTell 17:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, GT. I'll let Moreschi speak for himself but I believe he may have some eventual plans in that direction. Once we've got this main article sorted out, I intend to rework the separate articles on French and German opera completely (I've already made a start on the latter). Maybe I'll create articles on other national operas too. --Folantin 17:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Changed section heading to "English-language opera" ("Opera in English" might be an alternative). I've added general references for most sections. Feel free to add some more if you can. I think once Moreschi writes the new "lead", we can consign the paragraph about what opera is not to the footnotes. As far as I can see from the talk page here, it was only added as a disclaimer after some editors objected this article didn't cover Chinese opera etc.. A few scattered thoughts about asserting opera's notability in the lead: it is one of the most prestigious forms of Classical music (probably the most prestigious in the 17th and 18th centuries?) and some major composers (e.g. Rossini, Wagner, Verdi, Puccini) worked almost exclusively in the medium; the social importance of opera-going, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries; worldwide popularity of opera singers such as Caruso, Callas and Pavarotti in the 20th.--Folantin 08:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Re English Opera: IMO the problem with "English-language opera" is that it's too vague. I don't really see why Gershwin should be in there with Britten and Purcell. New World opera is its own genre, and therefore really should get an independant mention, with a link to an independant main article. But I agree that "English Opera" isn't ideal either, so IMO probably "Opera in Great Britain" is best, as that allows for the inclusion of any Welsh, Scottish/Gaelic composers that merit mention, without lumping American opera in, which is, after all, quite different from any UK based genre.

As for child article: anyone who wants to edit it, please to do so. Yes, I do have plans to develop that article, but I've got a lot on my plate at the moment both in real life and wiki, namely this rubbish, this article here, and I'm also trying to work this masterpiece-in-the-making up to GA standard, so I'm kind of busy at the moment, and English opera is on the backburner. Happy editing, basically. Best to all, Moreschi 14:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, just a moment. Britten is more like Purcell than he is like Glass? Certainly Glass is nothing like Gershwin. What do you think, GT? -- Ssilvers 14:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Silghtly facetious point: anyone ever heard Britten's I know a bank after Purcell's Sweeter than Roses? Echoes ain't the word. But I agree, ambivalence is present. I still think, though, that all the various developments in American opera should go together, and not wind up lumped in with a different tradition, which is to me a bit harsh on both genres. But let's see what other people think. Moreschi 15:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, The Oxford Companion to Music article on opera has a section on "Opera in Britain" and another on "Opera in America". More recent US operas already get a mention in the "modern section" of our article. Maybe just a short section on "Opera in the Americas"? Then we can mention (say) the very first US opera (out of historical interest) plus some Latin American stuff (Torrejon, Gomes, Ginastera, Piazzolla). Just a suggestion. --Folantin 15:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The trouble with this is that, say, "Opera in Britain" looks more like "which operas are/were performed in Britain and where", rather than "operas composed by British persons". --GuillaumeTell 17:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"British Opera" then?--Folantin 17:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure I know less about this than any of you, but I can't believe that Spanish or Portugese language operas by Latin American compsers are more similar to North American English-language opera than British opera. Handel and Balfe were influenced by Italian Opera. But they still wrote English-language opera. Do what you want, but it seems strange to me to separate English language operas by which side of the Atlantic Ocean they were written on. By the way, does William Vincent Wallace deserve a mention? -- Ssilvers 18:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Handel is a bit problematic because, while he may have been a German he composed in England, and furthermore he didn't compose English-language opera; his operas are all in Italian with the exception of Acis and Galatea (I can't think of any others off the top of my head). The oratorios are in English, but that's something else altogether. Something else to try and get our heads round, I suppose. Orrey (the source I used for List of major opera composers has "Opera in GB", and this includes Handel, just to confuse everyone. Best, Moreschi 19:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Years ago, we lost our tenor just before dress rehearsal for The Messiah. The conductor was referred to a young Japanese tenor who hardly spoke any English, but was supposed to be a crack sight reader. So we get started, and he sings: "Comfort ye" (so far, so good). "Comfort ye!" (nice voice!) "Comfort ye, my Pay-o-play". -- Ssilvers 20:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"British and American Opera"? (Ignoring the Latin Americans). Gluck and Mozart (both Germans) get their major mentions under "Italian opera". Handel should probably get his main treatment there when we talk about opera seria (but still leave the mention of him we already have in the British opera section - he had a big influence on English opera, even if it was negative in many ways). Mozart actually appears in both the Italian and German sections; Gluck in both the Italian and French. As they should. I don't think we should worry unduly about these things. Have you ever heard Telemann's Orpheus? It's an opera in German, Italian and French!--Folantin 19:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The Hoelle Rache sample

I have some doubts whether this recording/performance is suitable for introducing people to Mozart's operas. Personally, I think I would be scared off by it :). The lack of accompaniment could be part of the problem, the singer's strange pronunciation of German could be part of the problem - anyway, whatever the reason, the first 40 seconds or so are almost a torture for me. Maybe it takes a more refined/experienced ear to enjoy it? --194.145.161.227 22:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

English-language opera

I found cites for a historical discussion of early opera and antecedents in Britain, and so I added some discussion. Feel free to refine it. -- Ssilvers 05:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Daniel.Bryant's sprotect2 tag

User:Daniel.Bryant has put a sprotect2 tag on this article. Perhaps we could have an explanation of why, what and how does it work? - Kleinzach 09:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

See WP:SEMI, unregistered and "new2 accoutns cannot edit the page whilst semi-protection is in place, basically it should cut down the amount of vandalism, the article's been getting hit quite a lot recently. David Underdown 10:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Protection

Per a request, I have copied this note here explaining my action on the article Opera a couple of hours ago:-

What I have done is used my ability as an administrator to restrict editing for a period of five days under the protection policy; no IP address or user less than four days old will be able to edit the page. This action has been logged on the article's log by the MediaWiki software.

Although administrators generally don't leave protection notes on talk pages (rather, {{sprotect}} etc. on the article), I have added this one per a request to. Daniel Bryant 10:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. Much appreciated. I just wonder how effective a 5-day restriction will be. I'd really like to see a longer period or a permanent block on unregistered editors. What do other people think? - Kleinzach 10:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Generally, permanent semi-protection is only afforded to those articles which IP vandals love: George W. Bush, etc. Other articles, including this one, can generally only have short-term semi-protection, to prevent the disruption and to bore the vandals out, basically. Quoting the policy,

Indefinite semi-protection may be used for [a]rticles subject to heavy and continued vandalism, such as George W. Bush; *[b]iographies subject to vandalism and/or POV-pushing that aren't widely watchlisted; [and u]ser pages (but not user talk pages), when requested by the user.

Unfortunately, this article does not fit this criteria; rather, it fits the "temporary protection" criteria (quoting again):

Temporary semi-protection may be used for [p]reventing vandalism when blocking users individually is not a feasible option, such as a high rate of vandalism from a wide range of anonymous IP addresses; and [a]rticle talk pages that are being disrupted; this should be used sparingly because it prevents new users and anons from being part of discussions.

Reading a little more,

Semi-protection should not be used...[t]o prohibit anonymous editing in general.

Of course, if the vandalism returns at absured levels after the five days, then you could request reprotection, and more-than-likely the duration would increase (no guarantees, but it should, to something like 10-14). Hope that helps in explaining. Cheers, Daniel Bryant 10:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

How many pictures of opera houses does this article need? We already have three and now somebody is trying to add a fourth. Can't we make do with one representative example, e.g. La Scala? --Folantin 14:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Right. Since it's an article on "opera", not "opera houses", shouldn't there be images of one of each of these: an opera house (one exterior and one interior?), a famous opera singer (male and female?), a famous composer or two, maybe a page of music, a programme cover from an opera or two, a poster/advertisement for an opera or two, and album cover of an opera recording or two, a statue or painting based on an opera, etc? Best regards -- Ssilvers 18:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The best place fror multiple pictures of opera houses is the article on Opera houses. - Kleinzach 23:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, now there's yet another picture. Go ahead and kill at least two of them. -- Ssilvers 05:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I putted all the images that you guys remove in Opera houses. Next time you should add the content before you remove some other guy's job. Bcartolo 15:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Opera on TV

Is it worth adding a section on opera written for television (Menotti onwards), or is this covered elsewhere? I couldn't find an article... Barnabypage 12:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

There's no article as far as I'm aware. It might be worth writing one. The title probably needs to be Opera for television or Television opera, to distinguish it from all the operas written for the stage which are simply broadcast on TV. Then we could link to it from this page (there probably isn't room to cover it fully here - the main article is bursting at the seams as it is). --Folantin 12:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's such an article: if you want to write a separate one and then link to it from here, please feel free. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 12:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

IMO it should probably be Opera for television. How many are there? Owen Wingrave, Amahl and the Night Visitors . . . - Kleinzach 15:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Or, if you really want to have fun, you could write Opera for radio...or is that even opera at all, with no visual element?...Moreschi ^Talk 15:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Querelle des Bouffons?

Hello, do you think it is worth mentioning the Querelle des Bouffons in an article about opera in general? Thank you. --Kyoko 20:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably not. This main article is already too long, I think. The "national" opera sections here are only meant to be very sketchy. The Querelle gets mentioned in the main French opera article (plus it has its own page). --Folantin 20:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. I don't think it's the sort of thing most opera fans are aware of anyway, unless I am very mistaken. --Kyoko 20:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It's an important episode in the history of 18th century French music but it's too complicated to be treated in a single sentence, which is all we could probably allow here. The section on French opera on this page really gives no more than a brief outline of the major names and the main genres. --Folantin 20:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Culture section would be useful

I'm very surprised that there is no cultural section here. The perceptions of opera in different countries, portrayal of opera in film and literature, nothing. Odd, don't you think?

Can you sign please? Thanks. -- Kleinzach 23:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about not signing before, but don't just blow me off, okay? I'd appreciate a real response. 72.77.199.58 03:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem. How about registering first and then joining in? This article here is obviously a general intoduction, if you want to do justice to your idea it should probably be in a dedicated article. We can help you write/edit it. -- Kleinzach 03:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)