Talk:North India

Region

Hello @Fylindfotberserk, I opened this discussion to discuss about the meaning and the region covered by th term "North India". So, of the sources provided, none of them actually deal with "North India". All of them are government classified divisions for the Geological Survey of India, Inter-State Council Secretariat and Ministry of Culture and deal with official political divisions called "Northern Zone" and "Northern Region", for which a dedicated article already exists. This article is about the term "North India" and the much popular interpretation is that part of India excluding the South (and the North-East). The region indicated by this article doesn't very commonly refer to North India and again, an article on Northern Zonal Council, already exists. None of the sources provided actually deal with "North India".

I do not request the scope of this article be completely change but instead, both interpretations be mentioned in the lead, instead of just the one currently present, such that readers aren't confused. PadFoot2008 (talk) 12:37, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008: How do you intend to do it? I kinda agree that using administrative classification to refer to this piece of land is WP:OR. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the lead can look something like this:

 

"North India, in a broader geographic context, typically refers to the northern part of India, encompassing all the northern region of the country, excluding the southern states. However, in a more specific and sometimes cultural or administrative sense, North India can also be used to denote a smaller region within this broader expanse, often centered around the Western Indo-Gangetic plain and the Thar Desert"

 

And the infobox could include the maps of both the interpretations. I know the lead doesn't seem perfect and is a bit lacking on details but it can be improved. PadFoot2008 (talk) 13:51, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk. PadFoot2008 (talk) 14:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

"Western Indo-Gangetic plain" would include Gujarat, so have to excluded it per administrative definitions, so something like - "Northern Indus, Western-Gangetic plain and the Thar Desert" IMO as the lead para? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Yes, that is much better. I am adding it then? You can change anything else required in the article. PadFoot2008 (talk) 02:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

North India historically included Pakistan and Bangladesh?

Is there any way to include the historical broader interpretation of North India, in which Pakistan and Bangladesh would also be included? For example, I can't think of any reason why Bangladesh wouldn't have been considered North Indian before Partition if West Bengal was considered so.

Perhaps, as a way to avoid the controversy of equating foreign countries with India, we can include a line in the article equating North India in its broadest interpretation with the predominantly Indo-Aryan parts of South Asia? This might also include a place like Nepal into the region, though the Sinhalese parts of Sri Lanka would have to be excluded because of geographical separateness. GreekApple123 (talk) 00:56, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be fine, perhaps we could add a line at the end of the first paragraph. Something like this: "Historically, in its broader sense, North India also included the modern-day sovereign states of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal, where the population is predominantly Indo-Aryan, in contrast to South India where the population is predominantly Dravidian." Pinging @Fylindfotberserk. PadFoot2008 (talk) 12:28, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in North India

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of North India's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "PetragliaAllchin":

• From History of India: Michael D. Petraglia; Bridget Allchin (22 May 2007). The Evolution and History of Human Populations in South Asia: Inter-disciplinary Studies in Archaeology, Biological Anthropology, Linguistics and Genetics. Springer Science & Business Media. p. 6. ISBN 978-1-4020-5562-1. Quote: "Y-Chromosome and Mt-DNA data support the colonization of South Asia by modern humans originating in Africa. ... Coalescence dates for most non-European populations average to between 73–55 ka."
• From India: Petraglia & Allchin 2007, p. 10, "Y-Chromosome and Mt-DNA data support the colonization of South Asia by modern humans originating in Africa. ... Coalescence dates for most non-European populations average to between 73–55 ka."

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 09:38, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Northeast India not in North India?

The map showed in the lede (File:North India opinion map.svg) suggests Northeast India can be considered a North Indian subregion on the basis that North India is sometimes defined as "India outside of the South"; but I have never seen anything suggesting the Northeast can be considered part of North India. I believe the broadest possible interpretation of North India is "India outside of the South and Northeast". GreekApple123 (talk) 14:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Establish new consensus to change the article

@Katkar123596, do not edit war. This version of the article was established by a talk consensus many months ago. (See #Region) Prove your point here rather than in the revision history page and try to get popular consensus. PadFoot2008 (talk) 14:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you need to prove your point. What is reliable source of these edits. Please refrain from altering established classifications without reliable sources. katkar (talk) 16:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Katkar123596, I have added five citations now. PadFoot2008 (talk) 08:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I think reference that you have added should not be considered. I believe most these are written by Southern people and it shows their perspective of looking at rest of India. katkar (talk) 14:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Please check these references as well. All are from well known publishers.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/mumbai/north-indians-in-mumbai-are-mumbaikars-says-devendra-fadnavis/article65326105.ece

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/mumbai-news/marathinorth-indian-bond-is-like-milk-and-sugar-says-uddhav-101703445210067.html

https://www.businessinsider.in/polar-vortex-behind-cold-waves-in-north-india/articleshow/67755060.cms

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/congress-leaders-protest-non-representation-of-north-indians-in-maharashtra-cabinet/articleshow/105925608.cms

https://www.amarujala.com/india-news/north-indians-celebrated-maharashtra-day-in-mumbai-glimpse-of-marathi-culture-seen-in-north-indian-union-2023-05-01

https://www.business-standard.com/article/politics/mumbai-will-come-to-a-halt-if-north-indians-stop-working-sanjay-nirupam-118100800298_1.html

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/keeping-up-with-up-the-power-of-a-north-indian-migrant-in-maharashtra-101713627820755.html

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/uddhav-thackerays-outreach-to-north-indians-settled-in-mumbai-3776330

https://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/north-indian-obc-groups-in-maharashtra-join-the-clamour-for-reservations

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/raj-thackeray-north-indians-you-dont-have-self-respect-1401071-2018-12-02

https://www.amnesty.org/es/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/asa200252008en.pdf

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/maharashtra-bans-film-on-north-indians-life-in-mumbai/articleshow/3708008.cms?from=mdr

https://www.deccanherald.com/elections/maharashtra-polls-north-indian-votes-crucial-in-mumbai-768741.html

https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/bjp-to-launch-outreach-programme-to-connect-with-north-indians-in-maharashtra-before-bmc-polls-7411524/

https://www.business-standard.com/article/politics/north-indians-in-mumbai-have-adapted-to-maharashtrian-culture-fadnavis-122041500913_1.html

https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/maharashtra-polls-bjp-congress-ignore-north-indian-faces-in-ticket-distribution-4508971.htm

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/travel/maharashtra-to-attract-tourist-from-north-india/articleshow/22456045.cms?from=mdr

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/news/north-indian-outfits-in-mumbai-upset-with-bjps-tie-up-with-mns-886028

https://www.news18.com/news/india/maharashtra-mns-seeks-to-shed-its-anti-north-indian-image-661030.html

https://www.apnnews.com/maharashtra-to-attract-tourists-from-north-india/

https://theprint.in/india/north-indians-in-mumbai-have-adapted-to-maharashtrian-culture-fadnavis/917910/

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=8WNEcgMr11kC&pg=PA71&dq=scytho+dravidian+maratha&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAmoVChMIl5nD0YD6yAIVxsamCh0SDgSd#v=onepage&q=scytho%20dravidian%20maratha&f=false katkar (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding to the above, I believe this article should be about North India and not about non South Indian States or people who speaks Indo-Aryan languages. FYI Sinhalese People also Indo-Aryans, does this mean Sri Lanka belongs to North India? katkar (talk) 17:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Katkar123596: Do not modify the section headers written by other users. The question is whether there are sources that include Maharashtra and Goa in the 'North', and yes there are, quite a few good quality sources added in the article itself lately. Besides, these are part of the broader classification, not the govt defined 'narrow' classification that roughly corresponds to zonal councils, perhaps even less. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Added new topic that aligns with discussion. please give your opinion there. katkar (talk) 18:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Lede map image

I am not sure why File:North India.png is seen as a better representation of North India than File:North India opinion map.svg. It seems obviously better to show the varying interpretations of the region (including the broadest one) rather than to only show the broadest interpretation. GreekApple123 (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The second one is based on linguistics, but the sources used in the article are not based on that. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Link to Northern Indian subcontinent

In the first line of the article:

North India in a broader geographic context, refers to the northern part of India or, historically of the Indian subcontinent,

Can we put a link to Northern Indian subcontinent (which is currently a redirect to Northern South Asia)? GreekApple123 (talk) 02:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Are Maharashtra and Goa part of North India?

@Fylindfotberserk @PadFoot2008: It's true that some people might have different opinions on regional classifications. Maharashtra and Goa are generally not considered part of North India due to their geographical location, cultural heritage, and historical significance. They have distinct characteristics that differentiate them from states typically classified as part of North India. Additionally, their cultural, practices and historical influences not aligned with North India. katkar (talk) 18:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Please check these references as well. It clearly shows that these states are always considered outside of North India.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/mumbai/north-indians-in-mumbai-are-mumbaikars-says-devendra-fadnavis/article65326105.ece

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/mumbai-news/marathinorth-indian-bond-is-like-milk-and-sugar-says-uddhav-101703445210067.html

https://www.businessinsider.in/polar-vortex-behind-cold-waves-in-north-india/articleshow/67755060.cms

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/congress-leaders-protest-non-representation-of-north-indians-in-maharashtra-cabinet/articleshow/105925608.cms

https://www.amarujala.com/india-news/north-indians-celebrated-maharashtra-day-in-mumbai-glimpse-of-marathi-culture-seen-in-north-indian-union-2023-05-01

https://www.business-standard.com/article/politics/mumbai-will-come-to-a-halt-if-north-indians-stop-working-sanjay-nirupam-118100800298_1.html

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/keeping-up-with-up-the-power-of-a-north-indian-migrant-in-maharashtra-101713627820755.html

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/uddhav-thackerays-outreach-to-north-indians-settled-in-mumbai-3776330

https://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/north-indian-obc-groups-in-maharashtra-join-the-clamour-for-reservations

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/raj-thackeray-north-indians-you-dont-have-self-respect-1401071-2018-12-02

https://www.amnesty.org/es/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/asa200252008en.pdf

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/maharashtra-bans-film-on-north-indians-life-in-mumbai/articleshow/3708008.cms?from=mdr

https://www.deccanherald.com/elections/maharashtra-polls-north-indian-votes-crucial-in-mumbai-768741.html

https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/bjp-to-launch-outreach-programme-to-connect-with-north-indians-in-maharashtra-before-bmc-polls-7411524/

https://www.business-standard.com/article/politics/north-indians-in-mumbai-have-adapted-to-maharashtrian-culture-fadnavis-122041500913_1.html

https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/maharashtra-polls-bjp-congress-ignore-north-indian-faces-in-ticket-distribution-4508971.htm

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/travel/maharashtra-to-attract-tourist-from-north-india/articleshow/22456045.cms?from=mdr

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/news/north-indian-outfits-in-mumbai-upset-with-bjps-tie-up-with-mns-886028

https://www.news18.com/news/india/maharashtra-mns-seeks-to-shed-its-anti-north-indian-image-661030.html

https://www.apnnews.com/maharashtra-to-attract-tourists-from-north-india/

https://theprint.in/india/north-indians-in-mumbai-have-adapted-to-maharashtrian-culture-fadnavis/917910/

katkar (talk) 18:56, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That's the reason why the state articles use the regional identifiers that are "generally considered", which was part of an old consensus and is being maintained, instead of mmutliple identifiers as laid out by different agencies of the govt. This article deals with the broader/dest context as well as the 'narrower' one. As for cultural heritage, etc, do you think the northermost state/UT Ladakh is the same as Punjab? The bonafide northern states/Us - Ladakh, J&K, Himachal Pradesh, Punjab, Delhi, Chandigarh and Haryana are culturally, linguistically, historically distinct, not to mention the various sub-regions/cultures/communities in all those states/UTs. As for the current version, reiterating - the question is whether there are sources that include "Maharashtra" and "Goa" in the 'North', and yes there are, quite a few good quality sources added in the article itself lately. Besides, these are part of the broader classification, not the govt defined 'narrow' classification that roughly corresponds to zonal councils, perhaps even less. Also remove the redundant list above. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)