Talk:Nancy Lincoln

Untitled

Nancy Hanks is supposed to be a relative of mine, yet this article states that not much is known about her childhood! Now I must do some serious research to understand why there isn't much known about her childhood!

Nancy Hanks, b 25 Mar 1780, d 5 Oct 1818 , m 12 Jun 1806 to Thomas Lincoln.

Nancy lived with her grandmother, “Nannie”, until she went back to Virginia to live with her “aunt “ [quite possibly her real mother] Lucy Hanks Sparrow, m 1790 to Henry Sparrow. She lived with Lucy until 1795 when her aunt Elizabeth married Henry’s brother, Thomas Sparrow, then she lived with Elizabeth and Thomas until she was married to Thomas Lincoln in 1806. [Footnote1: The Lincoln Family, History of Lee County, Virginia, Anne Wyche.]

It is not known whether Nancy was the daughter of Joseph Hanks (in wedlock) or his sister Lucy Hanks (out of wedlock)

Gary Boyd Roberts identifies several candidates for Nancy Hanks’ parents: putative fathers include James Hanks of North Carolina, Abraham Hanks of Fauquier, Prince William and Campbell Cos., Va., Thomas Hanks of Ross & Washington Cos., Ohios, and _____ Hanks of Virginia; another possibility is a gentleman planter of Richmond co., possibly Elisha Lingan Hall. Possible mothers include Lucy Shipley, Sarah Harper, Merry Berry, ____ Berry, and Lucy Hanks

{One author has proposed that Abraham Lincoln was the illegitimate son of Nancy Hanks and Abraham Enloe.} -Nunh-huh 03:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

--The Broad Run Baptist Church (Fauquier County Virginia) has the Church records with Nancy Hanks baptism recorded. Local gossip says that she was father by a wealthy planter who simply spurned her once she became pregnant - hence Lincoln's hatred of southern aristocrats.

Nancy Hanks Birthplace

Nancy Hanks birth place is on the list of National Historic Places and is in Mineral County, WV. That information is correct. --71Demon 01:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have consulted numerous sources about the birthplace and there is substantial disagreement and numerous claims. The problem apparently originates with the widespread use of "Nancy" for Hanks' females. Deardoff 14:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Tom Hanks

How on Earth could Tom Hanks be a descendant of Nancy Hanks Lincoln? A distant relative, maybe, but Hanks would have had to be a Lincoln, and all of Lincoln's descendants are dead.--Idols of Mud (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

No trivia please

No trivia please. :)

7h3 3L173 (talk) 07:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Discuss huge changes, please

Large portions of the article have been changed this morning and really should have been discussed first and/or consensus reached. I have reverted the majority of the changes back to the original version - let's take it slowly, okay? Thank you. Lhb1239 (talk) 13:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, since this appeared to be little more than a stub of an article, I added standard bio headers and tried to make content consistent with other bios. I did not think those would be considered major changes, as I made few substantive changes. WP discourages trivia, and incidental mentions of Hanks Lincoln in music or books are not in the same category of "Honors" as songs written specifically as tribute to her, or memorials or legislative recognition. I think these are classified more accurately as "Honors" rather than "Legacy". Parkwells (talk) 14:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Items:

• It seemed unnecessary to devote more space in the section on Nancy Hanks' early life to the history of Mineral County, West Virginia than to her life, as the county has its own article. Its organizational history seemed to have little bearing on the events of her early life, which would have been the only reason to note it in such detail.
• Although she was born Nancy Hanks, by the time she moved with her husband and children to Indiana, she was known as Nancy Hanks Lincoln. It seemed appropriate to say "the Lincoln family" moved...
• Milk sickness is not a "disease" (defined by the dictionary as caused by infectious microorganisms or genetic causes), but an illness caused by drinking or eating products of cows that had eaten the white snakeroot plant, which contains the poison tremetol. I have corrected the milk sickness article so that it reflects this. We don't have to perpetuate errors in WP.
• If Nancy Hanks Lincoln was "living in Little Pigeon Creek at the time of her death," it seemed reasonable to say earlier in the content that the Lincoln family had settled in Little Pigeon Creek. Then the section on her death is limited to that and the milk sickness, and its other victims.
• Using the dab/wikilink is customary for people- I was trying to give each of her children their names at birth and while they lived in the Lincoln family (the surname does not need to be repeated three times), but also to mention Sarah's marriage to Grigsby. Using this kind of link directs people properly to the article on Sarah Lincoln Grigsby, but it does not seem appropriate to list her as a child that way.
• Material in the Lead is supposed to summarize the main content of the article, so Abraham Lincoln as president has to be mentioned below as well as in the Lead. She was first married before she was his mother, even thought that is why she is notable, so that's why I gave her the marriage first and mother of Sarah and Abe second; also kept the children in birth order.Parkwells (talk) 14:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Quick clarification so we're all on the same page: "discussion" occurs when more than one person is talking and ideas are exchanged. It's not just one person talking and giving a monologue on their thoughts.

I will take the comments above point by point:

• "Material in the lead..." -- Material in the lead is supposed to summarize, but it is also supposed to make note of what the article subject is known for. Hanks is known in history as being the mother of President Abraham Lincoln, not the wife of Thomas Lincoln.
• Living in Little Pigeon Creek..." -- Fine.
• "Milk Sickness" -- Yes, you are correct that it is not a disease, but it is a "condition". This should be noted rather than "disease".
• "The Lincoln family moved..." -- Fine.
• "Mineral County" -- Fine.

My issue wasn't so much with the content of what you changed, but what was being completely removed rather than reworked. It seemed abrupt and out of the blue to me. I'm just trying to maintain the integrity of the article - from what I have seen in the page's history, you hadn't edited it before, so such quick, big and not-so-subtle changes seemed a little to aggressive to me. Still, talking about big changes in the talk section is a better approach and promotes cooperative editing. Let's keep the discussion going. Lhb1239 (talk) 14:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Many editors working together to improve an article is a good thing. I know that sometimes I'll come across an article that just looks kind of stubby to me and I'll decide it needs some editing and boldly change it...article changes aren't always incremental. I think the article has now been greatly Wikified by all of us and is also now much better sourced. Also, a tiny little point...Parkwell's first edits to this article were back in 2009. Shearonink (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, but, quick clarification, I wanted to get down the points while I remembered them, rather than having to go back and forth to the article for one at a time.Parkwells (talk) 18:51, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

You or someone else had that she was the wife of TL; I just reordered it in terms of timing.Parkwells (talk) 18:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not a good idea to insert comments in the middle of another editor's already established comments. Doing so breaks up what the other editor already wrote, leaves out their sig from the comment, and generally causes confusion to those reading what's been written. What's more, doing so is basically editing what another editor has written and is not considered good Wikipedia practice. Please see the WP article on refactoring talk pages. I have re-placed the comments made by Parkwells just above these comments where they should have been left originally. Lhb1239 (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Re:Layout:replying guidelines, threaded comments with indentations denoting replies within a specific discussion is not usually considered to be against Wikipedia guidelines but, anyway, knowing Parkwell's longstanding Wikipedia experience I am sure that was not their intent. Since talkpages are supposed to be for discussing the article and how to improve it, thought I'd mention at this point that I've just added information and another reference about the multiple graves in the Pioneer Cemetery/Nancy Hanks Lincoln Cemetery at the Lincoln Boyhood National Memorial. --Shearonink (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Tom Hanks

I know this could be regarded as trivia but a lot of people have erroneous ideas about how Tom Hanks is related to Nancy Hanks Lincoln, the question does come up and they will do some research on the Internet and in Wikipedia. Tom seems to be Nancy's third cousin, four times removed Geneaology.Com paragraph and Geneaology.Com Family Tree. A 1999 Tom Hanks biography by David Gardner says that "Tom's line in the family dates back to the youngest son, John, born in 1690, a genealogical journey which took eight generations to get to the movie star." I think the information (reliably sourced of course) should be added to the article but I can't quite figure out how/where. Any ideas? Shearonink (talk) 16:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I see no reason why putting the Tom Hanks item back in would be harmful to the article - we should probably leave the reference to Toy Story out, though. That would certainly make it non-trivial and just factual. Some feel that adding relative info about celebrities in historical (and other) aritcles is trivia just because of their popular celebrity status. I don't agree. As long as the info is properly referenced and written encyclopedically, that is. Lhb1239 (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I added a section "Notable relatives" (have to change the first title as Hanks is not a descendant.) This makes me somewhat uneasy, as it could easily turn into a trivia section in numerous articles for distant cousins. Third cousin, four times removed seems rather meaningless. If there is no better source than a blurb on Ancestry.com, it should be left out.Parkwells (talk) 20:53, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that making a specific section for the Tom Hanks reference will possibly attract trivia - but I could be wrong about this. Time will tell if the page is watched closely for this kind of thing. As far as the third cousin 4x removed thing.....it's not trivial to genealogists. Aside from genealogists, however, if his last name weren't the same as Lincoln's mother, I would be more inclined to keep it out. Then again, there are numerous biography articles (BLPs included), that list celebrity and historical figure genealogical connections throughout Wikipedia - so precedent is set. All this considered, I don't think there's anything off or inappropriate about including the Tom Hanks info in the least. Lhb1239 (talk) 20:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

How is Hanks not a descendant? He's not in the direct line of Nancy Hanks, but as far as genealogists are concerned, he most certainly is a descendant of hers. Lhb1239 (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I am afraid I will have to differ with your statement. Tom Hanks is not a descendant of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, directly or otherwise, he is a relative/cousin of hers. They have a ancestor in common from the 1600/1700s, but any claims/assertions about their relatedness should be scrupulously sourced since Mr. Hanks is a living person and biographies of living persons parameters would apply in this case. --Shearonink (talk) 21:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Being fairly knowledgeable about this particular subject, I will also disagree with you (respectfully, of course). Tom Hanks is a descendant of the Hanks line, ergo, he is a descendant of Nancy Hanks through their common ancestor, John Hanks (b. 1728). Again, one not need be a direct-line descendant to be considered a descendant. Lhb1239 (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Most people would say a commonly-accepted definition of "descendant" is that one would have to in direct bloodline descendant to be considered such a person. Mr Hanks would indeed be a descendant of the Hanks family line but Nancy Hanks herself is not a direct ancestor of his. In any case, before adding any statements to the article about relatedness they would have to be scrupulously sourced and explained (whatever terms are used) owing to BLP concerns. Shearonink (talk) 21:53, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Having done much genealogical research, I agree with Shearonink, and we need to use a widely understood meaning here. Tom Hanks is not a descendant of Nancy Hanks, but a collateral relative. Only direct descendants are descendants. They may both be descendants of John Hanks, but that does not make Tom Hanks a descendant of Nancy. Ancestry.com does not claim that he is, or whatever the website was. Also, there is material in BLP articles that is not well sourced, and that is not a precedent we want to follow or encourage. This is not supposed to read like a fan magazine.Parkwells (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

"This is not supposed to read like a fan magazine." Wow - now THAT is certainly an odd turn of phrase and strange use of "logic" on this subject. Who here has suggested or implied (either in direct word or editing action) anything of the sort? Lhb1239 (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Many BLP articles for celebrities have a fan magazine quality to them, in my opinion, and often quote extensively from them. That is what I'm referring to.Parkwells (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Cemetery name

Per this edit... The Cemetery is referred to as the "Nancy Hanks Lincoln Cemetery" by the National Park Service per present Ref#6/here. Not sure that Graveyards.com is a reliable source... yes, I can see in the Graveyard.Com photo that there is a sign stating "Pioneer Cemetery" but that doesn't mean that this is actually the Cemetery's known name, officially or otherwise. --Shearonink (talk) 20:42, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Looking at various sources online, the cemetery is, indeed, called "Pioneer Cemetery". This would make sense, especially since there are Little Pigeon Creek pioneers buried there (my ancestors among them, BTW ;-). The NPS may call it "Nancy Hanks Lincoln Cemetery" for publicity and tourism purposes, but from everything I've seen, it's official name is Pioneer Cemetery. but...I'll look into this further. (and don't forget verifiability over truth - I suppose in this case, that verifiability may go both ways) Lhb1239 (talk) 20:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder but I do think that I already know the Wikipedia guideline of verifiability not truth. Source the name/names as necessary/required, it might be appropriate to refer to it as "Pioneer Cemetery/Nancy Hanks Lincoln Cemetery" since it is referred to in printed reliable sources by both names. It might be known as "Pioneer Cemetery" within the local area and there are at least 30 known graves at this location (only a few of which are associated with the Lincoln family) but I would think that most readers will come to the name through the Lincoln connection. Shearonink (talk) 21:15, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm starting to "hear" increased snippiness in the tone of your replies - and, frankly, in the interest of AGF, I just don't see the need for it. If you want to discuss, fine - discuss. But please, in the interest of cooperative editing, let's leave the "attitude" out. Okay? As far as the definition of what a genealogical descendant is, sorry, but you're incorrect. Lhb1239 (talk) 22:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

If I'm incorrect, ok, I am fine with that. In the other section I was only trying to give the commonly-accepted understanding of what a "direct descendant' is. I did do some research on the geneaological term and what I found at this Geneaological Dictionary stated that a descendant is "A person who is an offspring, however remote, of a certain ancestor or family", I took that to mean a bloodline descendant of a person or in a direct family-line. Like I said, if I'm wrong about the term, that's fine. --Shearonink (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Lhb, it would be useful for you to find a sourced definition for your assertion, as it's not one I've seen in 15 years of genealogical research. The 2004 American Heritage College Dictionary first definition of "descendant" is: "A person, an animal, or a plant whose descent can be traced to a particular individual or group." Nancy Hanks and Tom Hanks are both descendants of John Hanks; they are both descendants of the "Hanks line," but Tom Hanks is not a descendant of Nancy Hanks, as he cannot be traced back directly to her. He is descended from a different ancestor in the John Hanks line.Parkwells (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Sources

The information I added on Lucy and Nancy Hanks and the Sparrows is a placeholder, as I'm uneasy about the website as an RS. Am looking for other reliable sources on her life.Parkwells (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Inline citations

Generally WP policy is to put citations at the end of sentences, rather than in the middle, unless there is a compelling reason to do so. I don't think anything in this article is so controversial as to require cites for phrases.Parkwells (talk) 15:44, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

One way in which I see it being neccessary is if a specific fact/statement needs a reference. The are instances when references given aren't clear-cut and immediately obvious as relating to article text. So.....do we write Wikipedia text to fit the reference or provide a reference that fits the text perfectly? Or do we provide a reference inline so that a reader checking the reference isn't confused? Wikipedia is supposed to be written for readers, is it not? Lhb1239 (talk) 15:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

It's my understanding that "inline cite" includes those put at the end of the sentence. I believe it refers to having the source information there with the sentence in the edit mode, rather than having just a footnote number, with all source information in another location when in edit mode. If you feel the cite was critical to a particular phrase, you're welcome to put it back.Parkwells (talk) 13:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

West Virginia State Resolutions

Regarding the State Resolutions in the Honors section, I see that the resolution was passed, but I haven't seen where it was voted upon and resolved.

In November 2008, the Mineral County Historical Society and the Mineral County Historic Landmarks Commission officially recognized the researched site of the birthplace of Nancy Hanks in Mineral County, West Virginia, which was first identified in 1929. They had a memorial placed at the site.[42]

On February 12, 2009, on the bicentennial of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, the West Virginia House of Delegates passed a resolution recognizing Nancy Hanks Lincoln for her contributions and her birth site in Mineral County, West Virginia.[42]

The State Resolution link is for the Introduced (and not final, passed bill). Is there evidence that this was passed in the WV Senate (Senate Resolution #6) and House Resolution #7 were passed?--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Oops! I was thrown by the "Introduced" at the top of the web page - and searched but could not find voting and resolution info -- but I see now that the text is more than the Introduced text and does include notes about the resolution. Sorry for the confusion! (Since it's best not to remove content from a talk page, I thought I'd let it stand - and close out with my Ooops!)--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Shipley / Berry connection

It is seeming to me that the solid historical sources since 1980 do not find that Nancy Hanks' mother was a Shipley, and is not a direct relative of Richard Berry. What is troubling me, though, is that the Lincoln Homestead State Park identifies Nancy Hanks as a relative of the Shipleys and Berrys. It seems that Nancy's mother was Lucy Hanks, based upon Abraham Lincoln's comments, Dennis Hank's concern about Nancy Hanks being called "Hanks" and being "base-born", and the way in which Elizabeth and Thomas Sparrow were closely connected with the family through moves, births, etc. In other words: Nancy Hanks is an illegitimate child of Lucy Hanks, daughter of Joseph and Ann Lee Hanks and niece of Elizabeth Hanks Sparrow.

Am I missing something?

Is there a way that Nancy Hanks really is related to the Shipleys and/or Berrys from a verifiable, reliable historical source (i.e., not sources that are essentially genealogy based versus strong historical based)? Thanks a bunch!--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:55, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

It's a work still in progress, but I started the Nancy Hanks Lincoln heritage article to explore these issues in a bit greater detail, with the intent of pulling in more info about Kentucky heritage sites that played a role in Nancy Hanks Lincoln's background. There's so much out there about this topic, if I'm taking some wrong turns or not exploring an aspect deeply enough, please let me know.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Nancy Hanks time at the Berrys

I've been having a hard time finding conclusive information about when Nancy may have lived with the Berrys - and under what capacity.

There are two periods of time where I'm unclear about where Nancy lived:

• Between 1793 and 1796, since I get the impression that Henry Sparrow wasn't very excited about having Nancy live with them. I wonder if she could have really lived with Lucy and Henry Sparrow from 1793 (grandfather's death) until 1796 (Elizabeth's marriage).
• Time at the Berrys before her marriage to Thomas Lincoln. It seems that she must have been there for at least several months during the courtship period, but I'm having a hard time figuring out conclusively when she began living with the Berrys.

Am I missing anything here about Nancy's timeline, including these unclear periods? Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 08:02, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

It's a work still in progress, but I started the Nancy Hanks Lincoln heritage article to explore these issues in a bit greater detail, with the intent of pulling in more info about Kentucky heritage sites that played a role in Nancy Hanks Lincoln's background. There's so much out there about this topic, if I'm taking some wrong turns or not exploring an aspect deeply enough, please let me know. Thanks!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Great looking article!

I happened upon this article while looking for information on Tom Hanks. Before my first edit here, I thought I'd look at the talk page and see what's been changed and discussed about changes recently. Then, after looking at the most recent comments, I looked at the editing history and see practically one editor has transformed this article very recently. I have to say: great job, CaroleHenson! I hope you don't mind that I have (and will) changed a few things here and there in the area of style and wording. I promise to not make major changes to the article that would compromise what you've so well and carefully done here. Great research and inclusions. Precisely the kind of additions and changes a Wikipedia article needs in order to make it a quality piece. Kudos! Winkelvi (talk) 02:24, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Yes, edits are very much appreciated -- I'm sometimes so deep in the weeds initially that I miss editing errors until I've been away from it for several days. Thanks so much!--CaroleHenson (talk) 12:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Other Viable Theories

I am curious why Adin Baber's research and theory that Nancy Hanks was the daughter of Abraham Hanks and Sarah Harper (mother Elizabeth Shipley) was not represented here.

Baber's book, Nancy Hanks, of undistinguished families; a genealogical, biographical, and historical study of the ancestry of the mother of Abraham Lincoln .. (1960) is an open source book at the Library of Congress.

I have been using an online ancestry program to map and document Baber's research and it appears to be very précise (digital documentation matches up) and provides explanations that connect the dots of controversy (who is related to whom, communication misunderstandings, clarity about some statements (e.g. Abraham Lincoln stating he should have been named "Abraham Abraham" which could refer to Abrahams on both sides of his family).

I spent some time reading various books and literature and Baber's work is far above the rest and in fact is included in the Lincoln Presidential Library.

My question therefore is, did the author of this article read this resource and make an analytical decision to disregard it or has this information not been reviewed?

I do have to tell you that I am a descendant of Abraham Hanks of whom Baber concludes is the father of Nancy Hanks, but only learned of this connection through online research and have been working to prove or disprove it. It is an honor if it is true; however, most importantly it needs to be proven. I believe Baber's book does this.

Thank You Lizardrath (talk) 23:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC) Elizabeth Peterson

Order of deaths: Nancy Lincoln and Nancy Brooner

I just learned that Nancy Brooner is my 4x great grandmother and was surprised to find that she's buried next to Nancy Lincoln. There seems to be some discrepancy, though, over who died when. A lot of people list Nancy Brooner as dying on September 20, 1818 and Nancy Lincoln dying on October 5, 1818.

But I stumbled across this quote from Nancy Brooner's son, Reverend Allen Brooner on his 60th birthday. This is a quote from the Dale Weekly Reporter, Dec 21, 1897, page 12.

"At the time of Grandma Brooner's sickness, Lincoln's mother visited her. At least Grandma told her she was going to die. Mrs. Lincoln said 'don't talk that way for I may die before you.' Sure enough, she died 2 weeks before. They lay beside each other inside the same railing at Lincoln City."

So according to Nancy Brooner's own son, she died after Nancy Lincoln.

Not crucial information to the story, but important nonetheless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by July1962 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

relationship

SO,I WAS THINKING,LIKE THOMAS LINCOLN YOU GUYS SHOULD PUT A RELATIONSHIP WITH ABRAHAM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:1180:A21:5104:38AB:4393:F15C (talk) 22:17, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused. The relationship is stated in the first sentence of the article, the infobox and throughout the article. What specifically do you think needs to be done?--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:07, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

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Nancy Hanks Lincoln's Parents

Nancy Hanks Lincoln's father is not known and has never been confirmed as a James Hanks and neither has it ever been confirmed that her mother Lucy Hanks was a member or a descendant of the Shipley family. Abraham Lincoln knew that his mother was illegitimate as he told his law partner William Herndon as much. The Nancy Hanks Lincoln Mitochondrial DNA Study has brought a much different approach to the ancestry of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and has made many of the old theories implausible through the irrefutable evidence provided through DNA analysis.The illegitimacy of Nancy Hanks Lincoln with it being hidden and denied has spawned many false allegations concerning her lineage however this DNA study is bringing much insight into just who she was and who she was not. Genaology guy (talk) 12:05, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Genaology guy, I am happy to make the changes to this article and Nancy Hanks Lincoln heritage. Do you have sources for this info?–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:43, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

My Hanks family members were first cousins to Nancy Hanks Lincoln and first cousins once removed to her son Abraham. My Hanks family came to Illinois in the 1820s and were instrumental in convincing the Lincoln family to come to Illinois in 1830. Lincoln was close to my Hanks family members and used to visit them while traveling on the Eighth Judicial circuit in Illinois. Abraham's great grandfather Joseph Hanks in our family ancestry is my fifth great grandfather. I have sent my DNA sample to the panel of DNA analysts in the Nancy Hanks Lincoln Mitochondrial DNA Study and they placed me in group #1, of those who are among the closest of the relatives of Nancy and her son Abraham. As to the illegitimacy of Nancy Hanks Lincoln please read the 1887 monograph by William Herndon , Lincoln's law partner in Springfield, Illinois. Also read the 1988 paper by author and historian Paul H. Verduin concerning the illegitimacy of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and the prospective candidates as to just who may have been her father. Also read the February 11,1996 copy of 'The State Journal Register ' Springfield Illinois , about more illegitimacy in the Hanks Family. Also an invaluable book in the study of my Hanks family , it's history and relationship to the Lincoln family is the 1932 edition of 'The Lincolns The Hanks And Macon County' by Edwin D. Davis. There is SO much more to be told concerning this story. I am seventh generation here since the Hanks family came to Illinois and much information has been passed to me that has been handed down from generation to generation. My Hanks family members helped the Lincoln family build their first cabin in Illinois and the two families were linked together in the early history of Illinois. The truth is there if you earnestly pursue it as with anything in life. Genaology guy (talk) 21:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your reply. I would like to make the content here as accurate as possible. I will take it one thing at a time, but the most salient question may be the last one - what is the best recent scholarship about the Hanks and Lincoln families (i.e., who's the best historian about the Hanks and Lincoln families that have published in books and journals)? Out of your replies below, its something published in 1996 - but I don't have an author, but I will start poking around.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Here are my questions looking at things one at a time.

1. My Hanks family members were first cousins to Nancy Hanks Lincoln and first cousins once removed to her son Abraham. My Hanks family came to Illinois in the 1820s and were instrumental in convincing the Lincoln family to come to Illinois in 1830.

If this is something that you're wanting reflected in the article, is there any published information about this?–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

2. Lincoln was close to my Hanks family members and used to visit them while traveling on the Eighth Judicial circuit in Illinois.

That's interesting. Again, have a source?–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

3. Abraham's great grandfather Joseph Hanks in our family ancestry is my fifth great grandfather. I have sent my DNA sample to the panel of DNA analysts in the Nancy Hanks Lincoln Mitochondrial DNA Study and they placed me in group #1, of those who are among the closest of the relatives of Nancy and her son Abraham.

Is there a magazine or newspaper, etc. that published this?–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I have found this reference to Lincoln visiting his Hanks relative, John Hanks when on the Eighth judicial circuit in several published works. The book 'The Lincolns The Hanks And Macon County' by Edwin Davis tells in the biographical section on John Hanks about Lincoln visiting the Hanks families when he was in court.I'm sure the authorities of the Nancy Hanks Lincoln Mitochondrial DNA Study will confirm that. Most of them have sites where you can contact them as I have done this myself when I have needed information. John Hanks was invited to Lincoln's wedding to Mary Todd. My third great grandfather , James Hanks was a brother to John Hanks.The references to my relationship to Joseph Hanks (fifth great grandfather ), Lincoln's great grandfather has been published in local papers and Hanks family History magazines ( 2003 Hanks Historical Review Volume XIII Issue II ) as well as my relationship to Joseph's son William Hanks Sr.,uncle of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and great uncle to her son Abraham . William Hanks Sr.was my fourth great grandfather.This information should be available in my records of the Nancy Hanks Lincoln Mitochondrial DNA Study. Genaology guy (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, I will look for the book by Edwin Davis and the mention of the circuit court visit.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

4. As to the illegitimacy of Nancy Hanks Lincoln please read the 1887 monograph by William Herndon, Lincoln's law partner in Springfield, Illinois. Also read the 1988 paper by author and historian Paul H. Verduin concerning the illegitimacy of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and the prospective candidates as to just who may have been her father. Also read the February 11, 1996 copy of 'The State Journal Register ' Springfield Illinois , about more illegitimacy in the Hanks Family. Also an invaluable book in the study of my Hanks family, it's history and relationship to the Lincoln family is the 1932 edition of 'The Lincolns The Hanks And Macon County' by Edwin D. Davis.

It sounded like from your initial discussion that there is recent scholarship that helps sort out her background, but these sources are from 1887, 1932, 1988, and 1996. I like older sources sometime because it's closer to the events... however, historians sort out events over the course of many decades and good scholarship should be produced in recent works of good historians, right? So, my gut reaction is to look at the 1996 source... and see the extent to which it analyzes older, contemporary sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

5. There is SO much more to be told concerning this story. I am seventh generation here since the Hanks family came to Illinois and much information has been passed to me that has been handed down from generation to generation. My Hanks family members helped the Lincoln family build their first cabin in Illinois and the two families were linked together in the early history of Illinois. The truth is there if you earnestly pursue it as with anything in life.

My basic question after thinking through your comments is: "What historians do you think have done the best at analyzing historic information and recent scholarship about the Hanks/Lincoln family?–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Working subsection for sources

• The State Journal Register, Springfield, Illinois, February 11, 1996 - Re Hanks and Lincoln - not finding anything in Illinois, that day, re: Hanks and Lincoln at newspapers.com search
• 1887 monograph by William Herndon - I am not finding this - on his Wikipedia page, Lincoln's article, Nancy Lincoln's article - but, Herndon is quoted throughout the Nancy Lincoln article by Donald, Barton, Hertz editor from Herndon letter of 1870, Dennis Hanks to William Herdndon.
• Paul Verduin, "New Evidence Suggests Lincoln's Mother Born in Richmond County, Virginia," Northern Neck of Virginia Historical Magazine (December 1988), 4354-89. - have citation, looking for actual document. Best I can find is Verduin, Paul H.; Lincoln Financial Foundation Collection (1915). Hanks family. Nancy Hanks. which has two pages, marked up, told to look at lincolncollection.org but nothing referencing Verduin is there.

In the meantime, it is referenced in:

• Donald, David Herbert (1995). Lincoln. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-0-684-82535-9.
• Christopher Callender Child, "The Maternal Ancestry of Abraham Lincoln: The Origin of Nancy (Hanks) Lincoln, a Study in Appalachian Genealogy," New England Ancestors 4, no. 1 (winter 2003), 25-29, 55, which acknowledges that "Nancy Hanks's illegitimacy is not an outrageous idea," but concludes that it is not true.
• Burlingame, Michael (2013). Abraham Lincoln: A Life. JHU Press. ISBN 978-1-4214-0973-3.

• Paul Verduin, “Plantation Overseers, Patriots, Pioneers.” Verduin concludes that either Elisha Lingan Hall, a distant cousin of Robert E. Lee, or Griffin Fauntleroy, a plantation overseer, may have been Lincoln’s grandfather.

-–––CaroleHenson (talk) 01:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

There are some good sources in the article... and not so good sources. I am going to do a bit of clean-up.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I have the original articles, the monograph of William Herndon concerning Nancy Hanks Lincoln's illegitimacy,the papers of Paul Verduin concerning Nancy Hanks Lincoln as well as The State Journal Register concerning additional illegitimacy in the Hanks family.I also have copies of the book ' The Lincolns The Hanks And Macon County ' which is written by David Davis (1876-1954) and gives in depth biographical descriptions of the times and individuals and their families as you prefer from that time by an author who was close to that era. I have much descriptive material about the Hanks family members concerning the details that I have described to you in my replies. I have binders of photos and printed articles of all kinds from all sources. The problem is getting them to you as they don't always seem to be accessible. I have been collecting for many years but I don't know an easy way to provide these to you since they will probably not be available to tell the whole and accurate story that you desire. Let me know your thoughts as to a solution to this dilemma. Genaology guy (talk) 02:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

My take is: Really good sources by noted historians are easy to find... and especially referred to. I am going to go back to your earlier post about what you think is wrong... and look at some of the sources here. I am also going to try to sort out who is most appreciated as a teller of Lincoln's heritage.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:24, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I have contact information concerning those who were involved in the founding of The Nancy Hanks Lincoln Mitochondrial DNA Study.These individuals are VERY Knowledgeable concerning the history of the Lincoln/Hanks Family and were very interested in my input and so sent me their contact information . Also, I can provide you with contact information of others who are involved in the ' Genetic Lincoln Study ' as this is where the TRULY revolutionary information is coming from today. I am a member of this association however would not want to put this contact information online. If possible how can I provide this to you in a personal or private manner to further your investigation. This would open up a world of available contacts and information in the process of as you said of bringing to the public the true and accurate information concerning the Lincoln Hanks Family History told by those involved in the processes that are bringing about these new and exciting discoveries in this field . Genaology guy (talk) 12:12, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I found "Suzanne W. Hallstrom, Nancy C. Royce, Stephan A. Whitlock, Richard G. Hileman, M.A., J.D., Gerald M. Haslam, "Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtDNA Study"" in the Nancy Hanks Lincoln heritage article and will like for info to round out that citation - or another newspaper, journal, book source.

Wikipedia follows the news (and journal and books). It does not create news WP:NOTNEWS. Let me see what I can find to round this out.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:57, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I have spoken to several of them, very especially with Richard Hileman as we are descended from Hanks brothers.These people are SO knowledgeable and should be of vast help to you in explaining my point about the Hanks family history dispute in the Wikipedia article of concern. I have copies of my conversations on line with them and their confirmation of my status in the Hanks family lineage after analysis of my DNA. I have spoken personally with Mr. Hileman on the phone and also when he presented their DNA findings at the Abraham Lincoln Museum and Library in Springfield, Illinois several years ago. These people are VERY knowledgeable authorities on the Lincoln/Hanks families and you can't do better than these experts; you are in good hands Genaology guy (talk) 16:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I am sure that is true, but that's not how things work here. Please take a look at WP:NOTNEWS. We need Reliable secondary sources. I have used the books I mentioned below. I also used an article that will likely be questioned, so just a placeholder for the moment. I updated the Nancy Lincoln article and blanked out the Nancy Hanks Lincoln heritage article and added a redirect to Nancy Lincoln.

I still have some more research to do in recent books about Lincoln listed above (focusing on Donald and Burlingame and a look at Childs). And newspapers since 2015 for better sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for all of your expert help. I was most concerned with the relatives section of the article stating that Nancy Hanks Lincoln's parents were Lucy Shipley Hanks and James Hanks which has been disproved by DNA analysis and though Lucy Hanks is accepted as Nancy Hank's Lincoln's mother it is not known who her father was . Genaology guy (talk) 18:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Ahhhhhh! I fixed the infobox. Does that look better now?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, thank you . I think that we have both learned something most beneficial from this time together Genaology guy (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely! I am so glad you brought this up for discussion. I still have more to do, but it's shaping up nicely. Thanks so much!–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Found this on google scholar and the top two or three books here.18:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done with sources mentioned in this subsection.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)