Talk:Meliti

People of Meliti do not celebrate the Ilinden uprising

If they were, they would be celebrating in August, along with the ethnic Macedonian world, but they are celebrating in July, along with the Greek world. In the village my family comes from they do celebrate Prophet Elias and, well, trust me, noone is ethnic Macedonian.--Avg (talk) 01:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you really that sure? Avg, are you from Meliti? Here are a few videos from the events, Macedonians celebration of St.Elijah Day in Aegean Macedonia, Grckite mediumi za Ovcarani ANT 1 TV 18-07-08, Meliti - Florina - 20/07/2008, Ovcaranec-Jas sum makedonec. These people proudly saying they are ethnically Macedonian in the Macedonian language, well they must be pure Greeks. But i am not interested in youtube warring. And celebration the Prophet Elias, is not always with connection to Ilinden uprising. But in this case it clearly is. Have a nice day watching the clips. :) PMK1 (talk) 04:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This is appalling. Are you trying to monopolise Prophet Elias day now? 20th of July is Prophet Elias day everywhere in Greece, it is not 2nd of August which is your holiday. And Meliti has a population of Slavophones so it is natural to have Slavic songs. I saw your links and it is funny that the video clearly mentions that fanatics from Skopje were coming to pose as locals for the FYROM channels. In any case I have followed this story very closely last July, even if your reporters came to stir things, the mayor hiself adamantly stated they're just celebrating Prophet Elias and nothing else. Also, please stop adding a link about the linguistic composition to falsely claim a supposed ethnic composition. --Avg (talk) 10:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

If there were a medal for excuse making I would give it to you, twice! The village is ethnically divided a large part of the Macedonian-speaking population in fact has the same ethnic conscienceness as their brothers north of the border. They celebrate it on the 20th of August becuase it is in line with the Greek orthodox calendar. You really believe that they called the Tanec dance group to put on a good show? Yes, "Slavophone" songs, if you were able to understand you would realise that these are Irredentist songs, calling for this! Very funny though, nice try. Despite the fact that they are singing along to non-Greek songs calling for the secession of Greek Macedonia to another country and to top it all of they call the worlds most famous ethnic Macedonian dance group to perform, they must be loyal slavophone Greeks. Please wake up. PMK1 (talk) 11:11, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

What you deny is that people with a Slavic ancestry in the region of Macedonia, whether they feel Greek or ethnic Macedonian, have some common customs and traditions. What you are doing is saying that if they invite or even like Tanec they must be ethnic Macedonians. Do I really have to comment on that? There is no "ethnic" divide. There is no "divide" at all as you're trying to prove. There are simply Slavic-speaking and Greek-speaking inhabitants. And they both celebrate Prophet Elias day. In this very celebration they were Pontic dance groups, did your channels show this? Now about the date, if some people were celebrating your uprising they would keep it in line with what the ethnic Macedonians do all over the world, where they celebrate in August, even if they are New Calendarists, like they do in Canada, Australia and everywhere you have communities. The reason people from Meliti celebrate in July is obvious, they celebrate the Prophet Elias and nothing else.--Avg (talk) 11:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

If they have nothing to do with the Republic of Macedonia (and the predominant ethnicity there) then why invite the national dance troupe to perform at the village panagjur? Yes, they are New Calendarists, after all they are adherants to the Greek Orthodox Church. But where are these "other people" in the diaspora etc. celebrating it on the other day? Actually there is a divide; People with their own ethnic conscienceness (Aegean Macedonians), people without a defined ethnic conscienceness ("Dopii") and people with who have adopted another groups ethnic conscienceness (Slavophone Greeks), not to mention all of the people in between these points. It just happens to be so that the groups of Macedonian speakers in Meliti, are generally of the first persuasion. What kind of information will make you realise that the 20th of July, for the majority of people in Meliti, means a different a different thing then just the celebration of the Prophet Elias? PMK1 (talk) 12:41, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

If these people are infact Slavophone Greeks, then why would hundreds or people sing and dance to songs calling for a United Macedonia. It doesnt make sense, does it? PMK1 (talk) 12:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that Tanec perform only in front of ethnic Macedonians? Please realise the absurdity of what you say. They have toured so many countries in the world. Of course some of the people feel an affinity to the culture and this is logical, since the Slavic speaking element in the region of Macedonia has a common bond. But I've said that before and you simply ignored it. Because for you, any cultural or linguistic link means automatically an ethnic link. After all, you just said that if they feel Greek they have adopted "another group's ethnic consciousness". So you outrightly say that if you are Slavic speaking, Greek culture is something alien to you which you can only "adopt", which obviously shows your irredentist agenda. This is a fallacy. You also say, most people in Meliti feel ethnic Macedonian. This is patently false. I hardly believe you can find more than the handful of usual suspects who parade all over Greek and FYROM channels and say they are ethnic Macedonians from Greece. They are so few that I recognise them now by face. And of course the people at the Prophet Elias panigiri are not all from Meliti, they come from other places as well, including FYROM. And actually it was people from FYROM who staged the irredentist songs fiasco some years ago. This episode that happened only once as far as I know (and of course your channels were there to film it), has been discussed in Greek media many times. Basically people from FYROM got access to the sound system and, exploiting the fact that not many people have a native understanding of the language, put their own songs. You will clearly see that nobody is singing, they just dance to the rhythm. This, when it was discovered, was the reason the community and the mayor have now strict control on who and what is put on the sound system. Actually the irredentist songs is the greatest proof of all that FYROM is trying to use a simple celebration to advance its political goals. Unless what you say is that people from Meliti are not only ethnic Macedonians, but they are also ethnic Macedonian ultra-nationalists who advocate a United Macedonia!--Avg (talk) 13:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

If you're trying to convince him that not all people that were born in the region are not ethnic Macedonians, you're wasting your time. Self-identification is something I figured PMK just doesn't like. All who don't think they're ethnic Macedonians are brainwashed or confused at the least. --Laveol ^T 16:48, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I have never said that all of the people in Meliti identify ethnically as Macedonians, they dont. They Pontic Greeks clearly identify as Greeks while so do some of the people with a Slavic Macedonian background. However the majority of the Macedonian Slavic speakers identify as Aegean Macedonians. Some celebrate the Ilinden uprising, some celebrate the Prophet Elias. Just as is the case across the Greek region of Macedonia, however it just happens to be so that the majority of the pepole from Meliti identify ethnically as non-Greeks. In other villages the opposite occurs. Avg, is is that so hard to realise?

It is amusing that you claim the FYROMians took over the sound system to play these type of songs, (presumably from their own media device CD etc.). Especially when a band is clearly playing the music in front the crowd! It is also amusing how the Tanec perfomance was a coincedence which just coincided with the panagur.

Hristos Vozkrese! (In local Slavic of course ;).) PMK1 (talk) 12:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Alethos Anesti! I'm in a good mood today, after the Easter lamb feast and all so I'll leave this for now. Just think how many things we have in common, isn't it a shame to lose our lives disputing petty things?--Avg (talk) 22:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

edit war

Rather than blocking the disputants, I've reverted to the June version before this started and protected the article. If you are unable to work together as colleagues, then go to dispute resolution and have somebody babysit. Meanwhile, if there are non-contentious edits that need to be made, tell me here and I can add them in. — kwami (talk) 10:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

August 2011

There have been issues regarding Meliti. The issues largely revolve around the name of the mayor of the village, who calls himself (and is widely called) Pando Ašlakov, however is also called Panagiotis Anastiadisis.
There are issues regarding the nature of the population of the village. The village is inhabited by Macedonian speakers, and it can be said that many of the people do consider themselves to be ethnic Macedonians. A testament to this is the fact that Macedonian langauge newspapers and dictionaries are sold in the village, the Mayor publically declares himself to be ethnic Macedonian and Macedonian singers/performers including Suzana Spasovska, Elena Velevska, Group Synthesis and Vaska Ilieva have all been invited to sing at the annual village fair. To anyone with knowledge of the socio-linguistic situation in Greece, this phenomenon does not occur where people consider themselves to be Slavophone Greeks (with presumably no links to ethnic Macedonian language, culture, etc.)
Furthermore, what minority language is used by the people living in the village? Is is "a local slavic dialect" or is it the Prilep-Bitola dialect of Macedonian, which is reported to be spoken by numerous sources.
I look forward to the discussion, and hopefully we may arrive at some form of mutually acceptable formula to apply to similar cases. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I will write only regarding the name of the Mayor of Meliti. The Mayor (in each community of the world) is the local representative of the central goverment of each state. So when she/he is refered as a "Mayor of something.." she/he is obliged to use the official name that is known to the state and is also in his official documents. Moreover, she/he is obliged to use this name because is the name with which was elected. So, when we refer to this person with the title "Mayor of Meliti" we have to use the name Panagiotis Anastasiadis. He can use any name he wishes in his personal life but in the ballots of the elections was writen as Panagiotis Anastasiadis. If he changes his name legally on his official documents and then reelects the we can use the name Pando Aslakov. So, Lunch for Two stop reverting and editing this point about the name of the Mayor because you are wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.24.171 (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses the most common name. There is nothing wrong with having a compromise with both, because he is likely to be known by either name as frequently as the other. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Mayor

In a democracy, the mayor is not "the local representative of the central goverment", as the anonymous editor above wants us to believe, but rather the highest ranking officer in the municipal government. In a democracy, the mayor is generall elected by the people.

Regarding Meliti, this village is no more a municipality and therefore has no municipal government and no mayor. Mr Ašlakov-Anastiadisis is "πρόεδρος του Δημοτικού Διαμερίσματος", which translates as "President (or Chairman) of the Municipal Division". This is also an elected office. Mayor in Greek is Δήμαρχος.  Andreas  ^(T) 15:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I concur with the above, except for the fact that the δημοτικά διαμερίσματα were renamed τοπικά διαμερίσματα in 2006, and further redefined as τοπικές κοινότητες on 1 January 2011. Hence, his actual title is πρόεδρος του συμβουλίου της τοπικής κοινότητας, per the relevant regulation. This translates to "president of the council of the local community". ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 21:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Koufis

A native of Greek Macedonia and a former exile, teacher and local historian, Pavlos Koufis / Pavle Koufov, wrote in 'Laografika Florinas kai Kastorias' (Folklore of Florina and Kastoria) that,

• “[During its Panhellenic Meeting in September 1942, the KKE mentioned that it recognises the equality of the ethnic minorities in Greece] the KKE recognised that the Slavophone population was ethnic minority of Slavomacedonians]. This was a term which the inhabitants of the region accepted with relief. [Because] Slavomacedonians = Slavs+Macedoninas. The first section of the term determined their origin and classified them in the great family of the Slavic peoples.” Politis (talk) 10:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Whats your point? Wikipedia uses the term ethnic Macedonians. Not too long ago Greeks were being called Romioi/Rûm; Does this mean that we should write that people such as Leonardos Philaras were Rûm and not Greek (simply because at that time some people called them that). The same goes for Albanians and Arnauts, we don't call 19th century Albanians "Arnauts". Lunch for Two (talk) 14:18, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Anastasiadis' statement

The statement about 'Turks' in Meliti has been refuted by Anastasiadis, who in a letter to the Municipal Council of Florina explained that this was a mistake of a journalist at Devnik. In particular, he writes: "η δημοσιογράφος άθελά της έγραψε «έχουμε και Τούρκους στη Μελίτη» αντί της ορθής δήλωσης μου «έχουμε και πρόσφυγες από την Τουρκία στην Μελίτη» που εγκαταστάθηκαν στην κοινότητά μας, και ευρύτερα, μετά το 1922)" my translation: "The journalist involuntarily wrote: 'We have Turks in Meliti', instead of my correct statment: 'We have refugees from Turkey in Meliti', who settled in our community, and more commonly, after 1922". He then proceeds to complain about the negative impact of the failure of the Greek press to correctly transmit his statement. The full letter [1] can be found at the website of the Rainbow party

Even if it can be argued that this is an a posteriori attempt of damage control by the Party, the statement as published in the press cannot appear here because it cointentious and is not a reliable source for the actual demographic situation in Meliti.  Andreas  ^(T) 12:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, good point. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Can't we find a better source for the election of the president of Meliti? It appears that there is no official document on the Web that corroborates the information that he is indeed elected as president of this local community. All we have are indirect sources. Neither the website of the city of Florina[2] nor the protal of the Greek elections[3] report election results for local communities.  Andreas  ^(T) 22:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. I've had a tough time finding anything myself. The website of the former Meliti municipality is no longer being updated, while that of Florina only mentions the local communities that lie within the Florina municipal unit, i.e. the old municipal boundaries. ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 04:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that he is not the president of the community/mayor (leader, etc...)?? Furthermore, Andreas, dont you think thats its a bit OR to be telling everyone what Mr Anastiasidis said? To claim that his comments are also unreliable is also flawed. Does his assertion that the village comprises of ethnic Macedonians, Pontic Greeks and Albanians not back up the "findings" from the EU study in 1993? (Except for the Albanians who had not yet immigrated to Greece). I think its quite clear to everyone who exactly lives in the village. Lunch for Two (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

No, that is not what I am suggesting. He is, by all accounts, the new president of the council of the local community. He is not the mayor, since Meliti now falls under the jurisdiction of the mayor of Florina. There is, however, some degree of controversy about the manner in which he was elected, with the leader of his own PASOK ticket effectively accusing him of pre-electoral deception regarding his ethnic nationalist priorities and membership of the Rainbow party. As far as his demographic analysis is concerned, I agree with Andreas that it is inaccurate and unreliable. How can there be 2,300 "Macedonians" in the village, when the last census counted only around 1,500 inhabitants in total? ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 12:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Anastiasidis's words weren't being presenting as fact but, simply, as what he believes is the demographic situation in the village. --Local hero ^talk 16:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Lunch for Two, it's funny that you consider Andreas' comment a "bit OR" when the content representation of Anastasiadis statements that you added is exactly that. Andreas just pointed out that there are multiple interpretations of his reported behaviour as a whole. What we have in our hands is his original statement as it was published by Devnik and a second "correctional" statement. By taking his original statement and applying his "correction" you are making a non-trivial assumption: that Anastasiadis is telling the truth when referring to the issue as being triggered by an honest mistake on behalf of the journalist and that calling Greek refugees Turks wasn't in his original intentions (btw, do we have any reaction from the newspaper itself ?). It's not like this characterization has fallen from the sky, i've seen it occasionally being used by journalists in the neighbouring country, "Christian Turks" to be precise, as well as an ethnic slur in forum discussions. And it's not like Anastasiadis doesn't carry a well established controversy as a figure either. The fair approach here would to mention both statements and the controversy surrounding them. But this raises a question: why should we even bother spending so much space for him in the Demographics section ? Why should his opinion be so important ?--King of Fluid (talk) 05:24, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Note: I urge people to make sure they have strong virus protection before clicking on the www.florinacity.gr/news article linked to above by Teodoros (I got a trojan virus after clicking on it, which has rendered my computer unusable). Lunch for Two (talk) 03:27, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Folklore groups

I found Πνευματικός Μορφωτικός Σύλλογος Μελίτης (Π.Μ.Σ.Μ.) but suspect it is not notable enough, but maybe a start to get better sources.  Andreas  ^(T) 13:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

This page has been a hive of activity these couple of days, "word" must have spread quickly. God forbid there is a place in Greece where ethnic Macedonians exist. Lunch for Two (talk) 14:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I will say it again. It is my impression that Lunch for Two is a sock puppet or has edited before and extensively under a different name. I think I even pointed out dishonest edits. His accusations of 'word must have spread quickly' is also opportunistic, dishonest and indicative of comments that should ban this user for a while. Before his (re) appearance the Macedonian related articles flowed nicely and were relatively unvisited. Politis (talk) 18:33, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the cultural group does not exist? (Despite the fact that as recently as August 2011 they were performing. Besides WP:NNC clearly distinguishes between notability for a whole article and notability re: the content of an article. Lunch for Two (talk) 10:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course the group exists, but I suspect its only web presence is the Facbook group. My concern was that we should find an independent or at least more informative source about the group (I didn't).  Andreas  ^(T) 14:44, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, however, the Facebook group you linked may not even be the Macedonian group it could just as easily be the Pontic group (I guess someone would have to read the comments on the page to find out which one it is). A google search of "КУД „Овчарани“ од Овчарани" with a few slight permeations gives numerous sources re: the Macedonian folkloric group from the village. Lunch for Two (talk) 03:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Anti-firing range protests

I really would like to see a reliable source for the claim that the protests against the local firing range were by "ethnic Macedonians". In this article by the decidedly left-wing and anti-nationalist Ios, no mention whatsoever is made of the villagers' purported ethnic affiliation. On the contrary, it quotes the president of the local council of Lofoi who specifically says that the protests were not aimed against Greece or the Hellenic Army:

Κι αυτό που θέλουν να υπονοήσουνε, ότι δεν αφήνουμε το πεδίο γιατί είμαστε εχθρικοί στην Ελλάδα, είναι ψέματα. Εμείς υπηρετήσαμε στο στρατό, η καρδιά μας χτυπάει στην ελληνική Βουλή, άλλο τα ήθη και τα έθιμα. Να το κόψουν όσοι λένε ότι εμείς δεν θέλουμε τον ελληνικό στρατό. Εμείς κάναμε παραχώρηση δυο μήνες για την Ολυμπιάδα με συμφωνία να μη γίνουν βολές και το πρόβλημά μας είναι μόνο το πεδίο βολής.

Now we know the incident was subsequently hijacked by both the Rainbow party and Hrisi Avgi for their own political gain, but do we really need to report it on their terms? ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 15:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see why a Greek source would mention ethnic affiliation given that they consider everyone to be ethnically Greek. Lunch for Two (talk) 10:37, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Not quite. Ios has written numerous articles about Greece's minorities, and expressly contradicted the official government position on this and many other issues. If the protests were an expression of ethnic activism, as you suggest, Ios would certainly have reported the fact. If they were not, then ethnicity is irrelevant, no? ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 13:04, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

No. We can't speculate what Ios "would have" done. If it's such a big deal, we could include that, according to Republic of Macedonia sources, the protesters were ethnic Macedonians. --Local hero ^talk 16:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

reliable sources promacedonia.org and novazora.gr?

I am trying to contribute in the greek version of the article. My question is how reliable according to the policy of wikipedia are the references to the website http://www.promacedonia.org/mpr/ohrana.html and http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_2_38.htm? Are these copies of original published and reliable books? Also the web reference http://novazora.gr/arhivi/524 is reliable? novazora.gr site is belonging the the Rainbow party? Ggia (talk) 12:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

As per promacedonia.org, these copies are of original published books, whose reliability depends on their authors and their publishers. Regs. Jingby (talk) 12:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

As was repeatedly pointed out to you, most works on promacedonia are either (a) outdated material from the 19th century and therefore no longer useable as an academic secondary source for most purposes, (b) unreliable propaganda material, or (c) copyright violations. In particular, almost all works hosted on that site that would fulfil our reliability criteria in terms of content fall into group (c), because they are unlicensed mirrors of book publications. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

A good reference is the book of Kostopoulos "Η απαγορευμένη γλώσσα - Κρατική Καταστολή των Σλαβικών Διαλέκτων στην Ελληνική Μακεδονία." (the title of the book can be translated as "The forbitten language: State suppression of the Slavic dialects in Greek Macedonia" (unfortunately the source is in Greek).. I add some info from that book [4] (my english is not so good - please correct my typos). Ggia (talk) 13:01, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Naselenite mesta vo Egejska Makedonija by Todor Simovski is probably the most informative/detailed work originating in the Republic of Macedonia regarding this issue. As for the Nova Zora article, I guess it depends on what it is referencing. "Referencing" opinion is different to references of widely known occurances. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

But this book of Todor Simovski is mentioning also Meliti village? About Nova Zora - is it a news-portal by Rainbow party or a anonymous origin portal? Can articles by Nova Zora considered reliable sources for using them in the article? Ggia (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, Nova Zora is basically the partisan newsletter of Rainbow, we cannot say it is a mainstream/established newspaper. Regardless of this, how factual do you think could Rizospastis be when covering a clash of PAME with the authorities or a historical subject relating to the civil war for instance ? My personal conclusion is that we should not use anything from this publication unless it's signed/attributed by/to an established authority on the given subject. Regarding historical topics, i've only seen some of Lithoksoou's articles being published there. I was amazed to see that you actually consider (at least some of) his work a reliable source (reading the discussion in the Greek wiki). Maybe i'm missing something, but probably the best thing i can thing of him is that he just makes a bad impression of Elias Petropoulos. Petropoulos at least left us with some good and original works apart from his sensationalist hontrades, what about this guy ? I mean, have you seen his stance on the glossiko zitima and especially the orthography issue ? It's all about love for the fringe. I'm not sure if he even falls under wikipedia's technical criteria as well, academic credentials, number of well regarded works that cite him etc.--King of Fluid (talk) 22:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

In the Greek wiki the discussion is about the name "Ovčareni". The name Ovčareni as far as I understood is used a lot in many references.. and the reference to Lithoksoou and Kostopoulos book are used to cite to the name Ovčareni. It is not used Lithoksoou reference for writing history in the greek article. The discussion about Rizospastis or Petropoulos is out of the context in this discussion here since none of the citations are used as sources here. Ggia (talk) 06:24, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Read my comment better, you understand that people often make comparisons in order to evaluate stuff, do you ? That was what Petropoulos and Rizospastis were all about. Well, the discussion was for the Slavic name but you gave the impression that you hold Lithoksoou's book in high regard. And since Nova Zora is used as a source in the history section here and Lithoksoou often publishes articles regarding history in this newspaper... you understand the connection in my reply above now, i hope.--King of Fluid (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

If there is a proposed copyright violation, because some of the publication on ProMacedonia are probably unlicensed mirrors of book publications, then delete the link to this site - ProMacedonia or others, but not the source, i.e. the name of the book, author, publisher, page and so on. Their names are not copyright violation. Thank you. Jingby (talk) 16:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Overreaction

There has been an undue overreaction over the contents on this page, which include holding the sources on this page to an unusually high (one can say unreasonable) standard, in order to have them discredited and removed. What I do find ironic, is that even on Greek wikipedia the link between ethnic Macedonians and the village is mentioned. Surely if it acceptable there (which like all of the Balkan Wiki's is prone to nationalist bias) then at least some parts are usable here. Overanalysis of source to the point where statements are being made out of context inevitably leads to WP:OR. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:04, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

The 99% of the Greek article is written by me and part of it is a translation of this english version. Mentioning the ethnic macedonian (slavomacedonians as it is mentioned in the greek article) is due to the sources.. I don't like Greek or Macedonian nationalist bias (I am greek).. but when we write about these "sensitive" to bias issues only good and reliable sources should be used... otherwise the information should be deleted. Ggia (talk) 18:16, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Brancoff. "La Macedoine et sa Population Chretienne". Paris, 1905

Brancoff. "La Macedoine et sa Population Chretienne". Paris, 1905 / This is a primary source.. And a secondary source (maybe) citing to this source is needed [5]. This book is online here Ggia (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

сп. Македонски преглед

As per Future's comment to give proper bibliographic info to check reliability of this title. This is the name of the magazine issued by the Macedonian Scientific Institute in English "Macedonian Review", in Bulgarian "Македонски преглед". The "Macedonian Review" is published quarterly. The "Macedonian Review" is concerned with Macedonia and all branches of the study of its history, culture and social life. Macedonian Scientific Institute, Pirotska Street, No 5, Sofia 1301, Bulgaria, © Macedonian Scientific Institute ISSN 0861. You can check here:[6] and [7]. Jingby (talk) 14:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Future. Jingby (talk) 14:39, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, that still doesn't answer whether it's a reputable academic outlet. An "institute" with an extremely narrow focus, connected with a very obvious political agenda, and apparently no affiliation with any recognized academic body? What stops me from thinking this is just some self-serving propaganda club? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

In 2010 in the magazine's editorial board were included Prof. Trendafil Mitev (editor) - University of National and World Economy in Sofia, Prof. Dimitar Gotsev - Sofia University, Prof. Dr. Stoyan Germanov - Macedonian Scientific Institute, prof Svetlozar Eldarov - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Ph.D. Margarita Vassileva - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Associated member Dr. Alexander Grebenarov, Prof. Jordan Constantin (Romania), Prof. Dr. Anna Choleva - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Ph.D. Dr. Liliana Vassileva, Dr. Georgi Georgiev. Jingby (talk) 18:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I was trying to find something about it. Is it affiliated in any way to BAN?--Laveol ^T 18:11, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

By the way, there is no older scientific institution in the world specialized in the Macedonian issue. Jingby (talk) 18:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I did not understand what is unreliable in this statement of сп. Македонски преглед, or maybe it is not in accordance with the ideas of some editors? Maybe propagandist websites are more reliable from the Macedonian Scientific Institute? Jingby (talk) 18:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Macedonian Slavic-speaking Slavophones

"Slavic-speaking Slavophones" is a pleonasm. I would suggest either "Slavic speakers", "Macedonian Slavic speakers", or "slavophones". What is meant by this is amply explained in the artile linked on Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia.  Andreas  ^(T) 02:19, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

The source says the linguistic group is Slavophones, while the language they speak is Macedonian. I think the fact that it's Macedonian is noteworthy. I would prefer the second one of your suggestions. --Local hero ^talk 02:44, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141025120934/http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=7219956223&id=9&setIzdanie=21743 to http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=7219956223&id=9&setIzdanie=21743

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This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:41, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Meliti. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=1&EditionID=1525&ArticleID=100338
• Added archive https://archive.is/20120917174253/http://www.time.mk/read/1677e0676d/bed5da1479/index.html to http://www.time.mk/read/1677e0676d/bed5da1479/index.html
• Added archive https://archive.is/20120917174253/http://www.time.mk/read/1677e0676d/bed5da1479/index.html to http://www.time.mk/read/1677e0676d/bed5da1479/index.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)