Talk:Meir Ettinger

This article was nominated for deletion on 31 July 2017. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

General comments[edit]

I have added some follow-up to the Duma stuff.

In general, the page could use some responses from Ettinger to the charges made against thim. There are already some comments from Ettinger's lawyer in the Duma case, but more could be added. Since this is a BLP, one can give some more space to Ettinger's own responses.

Regarding the BLPCRIME issue raised on the other talkpage, I think one should to use the various reports made at the time, together with Ettinger's response. There was prolonged administrative detention, which allows evidence to be withheld; so we do not know what exactly it was. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

POV & BLP issues[edit]

I intend to separately place this article for deletion, however I want to lay out a number of issues here that seem to run foul of BLP policy, BLPCRIME, and NPOV: 1. Article is highly negative tone, not in accordance with WP:BLPSTYLE. 2. Multiple tie-ins to Meir Kahane and elaborations of Kahane's world view, part of which are WP:SYNTH, the grandfather of the subject who died a year before the subject was born. 3. While the article states by-products of the alleged ideology (e.g. price tag attacks), the ideology itself is not spelled out in detail. 4. Association of the subject with several crimes - incitement, violent crimes (price tag), arson, murder. However the subject while widely speculated to be involved (by media and security sources) and placed under administrative arrest - was never charged. This 2015 speculation ended with his subsequent release and the trial (and 1 conviction to date) of other people. Ettinger was convicted, once, in 2012 for a minor offense of "conspiracy to collect information of military value" as part of a plea bargain in which he was sentenced to time served (was in jail for violating house arrest). Tying him to other crimes for which he was not charged nor convicted is a BLPCRIME issue. 5. WP:COATRACK attacks on the hilltop movement (e.g. the paragraph beginning with "The rabbis behind the hilltop youths ") - not tied to the subject.Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(1) Be concrete, what's negative?

(2) All sources tie in Meir E. to his grandfather. Don't wave WP:SYNTH abstractly, unless you can show concretely where is supposedly occurs, combining sources to say something sources do not say.

(3) The ideology is spelled out. Read again.

(4) That he was never charged for murder means nothing. He was under administrative detention for the crime, and released. That a state doesn't prosecute doesn't mean one should never mention the fact, in dozens of sources , that he was thought to have some connection to the crimne.

(5) All material on the page comes from sources directly mentioning that material in connection with Ettinger, so WP:COATRACK doesn't apply. Nishidani (talk) 06:56, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that the grounds for Administrative detention#Israel (in Israel and in the original UK ordinance from which this originated) is not due to committing a crime in the past (which is irrelevant) but rather "where there is a reasonable chance that the person harms the security of the state" - this is not a finding of guilt in any way for a crime, but rather done in the grounds of suspicion, by the state, of possible future crimes which may harm the security of the state. Judicial review (of typically secret intel reports) is strictly limited to whether the suspicion of possible future actions is reasonable, and is not a finding of guilt in any war regarding the past.Icewhiz (talk) 07:07, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Then, please email Moshe Yaalon and notify him that his comments regarding the reasons for administrative detention in this case are flawed.Nishidani (talk) 07:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Yaalon's been terminated, so that's moot, and regardless Yaalon's public comments on a LP are not a finding of guilt. I wouldn't say a lot of water has flowed in the parched Jordan, but since 2015 Ettinger has been released without being charged in any way in relation to Duma. Per WP:PERP we are supposed to assume BLPs are not guilty if they aren't convicted - all the more so if not charged.Icewhiz (talk) 07:22, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article is indeed negative in tone, but from what I can see, the sources cited are also very negative in tone (as were other sources I tried to Google). One can't really help reflect what the underlying sources say. As I said above, one way to mitigate this somewhat is to add some responses by Ettinger about the various aspects. His lawyer is already quoted in the section about his treatment. More can be added if required. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The sources in the article have been cherry-picked for negativity in English(I definitely agree most coverage is negative - selected here are the most negative pieces), there are also more positive sources (And some marginal positive ones in Hebrew) and also long copious tracts written by Ettinger and similar figures (some notable). His lawyer responding to allegations he was tried to Duma (for which he was not charged and was released) - is not a positive balance - it actually adds negative information. As I placed this up for AFD due to WP:PERP - I am leaving balancing of the existing article until the AFD closes - my personal preference is not to expand Ettinger's world view in a manner fit for a BLP in a neutral-somewhat positive voice.Icewhiz (talk) 07:27, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Slowing down to think over what is meant by what one writes is important. If you claim.

The sources in the article have been cherry-picked for negativity English

then admit most existing English

coverage is negative

then you automatically cancel out the claim of cherrypicking. Do that over numerous paragraphs, and editors will adopt WP:TLDR. Nishidani (talk) 08:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Article suffers from severe POV issues.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:32, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, even from the first sentence it starts. You can't call someone a radical in the lead, activist is fine, IMO. But the whole article itself is just extreme with the POV and would do good ad AFD or rewritten with more balance. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. Centre right sources all call him a radical, few call him an activist, and some call him a fanatic. Reading all these, I thought radical activist a fair description. Asserting something is POV is policy-flag-waving unless it is concretely illustrated. No one has done so.Nishidani (talk) 19:13, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here is Breitbart (using AP), calling Ettinger a "Jewish extremist". I don't propose to use Breitbart in the WP article; I am just giving the source as an illustration of his description in various sources across the spectrum. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:03, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notes on my recent edits[edit]

I couldn't fit all of the changes in the short description so I am posting it here. - Edit 2 & 3, both are related to the newly added infobox.
- "is a far-right Israeli religious radical" is vague, and could have meant a Muslim radical, so I changed it to "an Israeli Kahanist" as Kahanism is considered both far-right and radical generally, and it is far more accurate.
- "a radical Orthodox political party and movement later banned by the Israeli government under its anti-terrorism laws" is now sourced.
- Several typos fixed.
- Meir Ettinger is said to have disagreed with its pacific approach in this regard, advocating rather the adoption of violence in order to undermine the foundations of Israel. Was changed to Meir Ettinger is said to have disagreed with Ginsburghs pacifistic approach in this regard, as Ettinger advocated the adoption of violence in order to undermine the foundations of Israel. Please correct this if pacific wasn't a typo of pacifistic, I was just editing it since it seemed like a typo and that was the closest word I could think of that the original writer of the sentence might have meant. I don't actually know if Ginsburgh is pacifistic or not.
- "He also believes, significantly, that it is a religious duty to "act with God" and help advance geula by earthly acts, not just by committing good deeds and waiting for the Messiah to come." was removed, this was the source, and it isn't about him specifically, it's about the Rabbis of the Hilltop Youth, and it should be added there.
- "Palestinians must go" changed to to Palestinians must be expelled, as "must go" sounds vague, where must they go to? The local parks?
- producing a "legacy of hate" of spiralling violence, and the example of Meir Ettinger, as one of his successors, is part of that legacy. Was removed, even though it was just quoting what the author was saying it reads like a random condemnation, and doesn't really add anything.
ShimonChai (talk) 08:11, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Activism"[edit]

To me the topic "Activism" has a very bitter aftertaste, when most things that are described there would in any other circumstance be viewed as "Terrorism". I wonder why it isn't called that way and whether it could be changed to it. 92.211.99.43 (talk) 22:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]