Talk:Max Nordau

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It is not mentioned anywhere that Nordau was an anarchist. Here are three publications of his that prove that philosophical inclination:

Nordau, Max Simon. (Max S. Suedfeld.) Der ekonomisher ligen. [The Economic Lie] Trans. Rudolf Rocker (from 'Konventionelle Lügen der Kulturmenschheit'). London, 1904. 49pp. [BL:8205.d.31.]

Nordau, Max.(Max S. Suedfeld.) Der ligen fun der khasene. [The Lie Of Marriage] London: Frayhayt, 1900. 52pp. [IISH Y Bro 3082/14]

Nordau, Max. (Max S. Suedfeld.) Der ligen fun der religyon. [The Lie Of Religion] London: Frayhayt, 1901. 55pp. [IISH Y Bro 3092/1]

In response to the above, I find it highly unlikely that Nordau was an anarchist, since in Degeneration he explicity describes anarchists as being themselves degenerates. Also, I'm not completely convinced that it "certainly would be a mistake" to consider Nordau's writings as proto-fascist, as it says in the main article. Just because Nordau was a Jew does not mean that he cannot be held responsible for views which from todays standpoint, sound on occasion remarkably and disturbingly similar to those of various mid-century European fascist organizations. At the very least, he must be considered as part of the broader reactionary stream by which more explicitly proto-fascist writers were nourished. eeesh April 26, 2006

I get your point, he does sound remarkably like a fascist. However, you really have to look at this in the context of the time. I wrote this article, and my reluctance to call him a fascist has nothing to do with his Jewishness. It's more to do with the fact that he believed in Democracy and thought the "Blut und Boden" romantic nationalist movements were either dangerous or ridiculous. His cultural views were horribly reactionary, fair enough, and may have contributed to a general reactionary current in late 19th and early 20th Century Europe, but they weren't fascist.

Rather, the problem is that today the world fascist carries too much historical baggage. From the contemporary perspective, looking past Auschwitz into the further past, we can't see that at one point it may have seemed quite reasonable to use national or ethnic solidarity as a substitute for class solidarity, to see monarchs and other tinselled and uniformed strongmen as more legitimate than proletarian dictators, and thus to favour a right-wing traditionalist or folkish-agrarian collectivism as opposed to a left-wing vanguardish, urban, industrial collectivism.

Dozens of otherwise rational and respected people held similar opinions; T. S. Eliot, Hilaire Belloc, and G. K. Chesterton were notable exponents of such views in the English speaking world, although probably none of them were capable of mass murder. The only reason we don't remember them as proto-fascists is that their politics were fortunately forgotten as unmemorable achievements; though in Belloc's case it's not quite possible to wipe away the stain. But for the fact that fascist now is a reproachful epithet, I would not hesitate to name Nordau a proto-fascist either. — Smerdis of Tlön 18:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When Nordau was born in 1849, neither the city of Budapest nor the Austro-Hungarian Empire existed as such.202.81.167.172 10:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is what Nordau had to say about Diaspora Jews: "He has become a cripple within, and a counterfeit person without, so that like everything unreal, he is ridiculous and hateful to all men of high standards."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.213.31 (talk) 02:41, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What does it mean for him to be a phillistine, from the Wikipedia definition I can't really get a handle of what the author of the article is trying to say about him. Jztinfinity 06:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unencylopedic paragraph[edit]

It would certainly be a mistake to see the views expressed in Nordau's work as being proto-fascist, despite the obvious similarities between Nordau's view of modern art and that of the Nazis, who also used the expression Entartete Kunst or Degenerate Art. Although Nordau's work certainly reflect a reactionary strain of European thought, he condemns the rising Anti-Semitism of the late 19th Century as a product of degeneration.

The above is both POV & Argument from fallacy. Proto-fascism does not necessitate anti-semitism (If National Socialism is considered a type of Fascism, then a form of fully manifested (not proto) Fascism attested historically had examples of it, but one does not equal the other.) Nagelfar 01:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

I realise that he was known by several different names, but there are slightly different alternates given in the introduction and the biography section. I guess they should be: 1) Simon Maximilian Südfeld or just Simon Maximilian 2)Südfeld Simon Miksa or Simcha Südfeld. 88.233.124.138 (talk) 10:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

a neonazi may be vandalizing the article[edit]

ok I just removed little brackets <<>> around various random words and phrases here. I believe this article would be prone to vandalism by a neonazi b/c it is about a jewish person and the jewish person is a pseudofascist. the article is out of the way and not as important... the brackets seem random but they use a different character: (copy pasted from article before i deleted them: " «neurotics» "). so nazis like to do this (( )) around names of jewish ppl, but here we see almost random <<>> around phrases. Well I bet its not an accident. My only gripe is i spend more time removing this than the punk spent putting it up, and i am actually cleaning the article of basically a jewish cryptofascist here. Also this is a warning, if i am right you can see they will be using << >> some in other articles. Nazi vandal should be banned if this is real. Notice that the edits were all under the paragraph 'degeneration' in the article, and hidden away from the top. Nazis love to play with odd character sets, it makes them think they are 4chan hackers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nathanielfirst (talk • contribs) 23:39, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Nathanielfirst: Those are called guillemets or angle quotes. They are a standard punctuation mark in a number of languages (though not usually in English). I very much doubt that their use on this article is a Nazi conspiracy. IgnorantArmies (talk) 06:05, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I still think the usage of this character is possibly some sneaky rascism. be on the lookout for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nathanielfirst (talk • contribs) 21:59, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is no Nazi conspiracy on Wikipedia, as exciting as that might seem. You're welcome to change guillemets to standard quotation marks (which are required by Wikipedia policy), but please don't just delete them without replacing them. IgnorantArmies (talk) 14:22, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Knowing Nordau’s abilities[edit]

In the “Degeneration (1892)” section, it is stated that William James criticized Nordau because Nordau "has striven to impugn the value of works of genius in a wholesale way (such works of contemporary art, namely, as he himself is unable to enjoy, and they are many) by using medical arguments". This can only be true if that famous psychologist, William James, had the ability to know Nordau’s abilities. If a survey could be taken of all humanity, it may show that a great majority of people would also be unable to enjoy many works of contemporary art. This may be the case because the works themselves are inherently unenjoyable.96.235.173.81 (talk) 23:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)Joe Bidet[reply]

According to the article, William James knew for certain that Nordau lacked the power or ability to enjoy modern culture (works of genius). As a result of this inability, Nordau mistakenly tried to attribute the quality of degeneration to those works. The degeneration was a medical condition, according to Nordau.96.235.173.81 (talk) 18:40, 31 January 2021 (UTC)Joe Bidet[reply]

Nordau or Herzl?[edit]

In the first paragraph under "Dreyfus Affair", the three occurrences of 'he' or 'his' seem quite ambiguous as to whether they refer to Nordau or Herzl. Can anyone clarify? 61.68.3.146 (talk) 20:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nordau Prize[edit]

Several Israeli authors have won a prize by this name. It might not qualify for an article on enWiki, especially as it seems to have been discontinued, but at the very least it should be mentioned on Nordau's page, with the necessary detail: who gave the prize to whom, on what criteria, political orientation, etc. Who wishes to pick up the challenge? Arminden (talk) 12:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]