Talk:Majdal Yaba

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Migdal Afek and Tel Aphek[edit]

Majdal Yaba is Migdal Afek is Migdal Tsedek is Mirabel

Tel Ras el Ain is Tel Aphek is Antipatris

These are two different castles both located at the Majdal Yaba lands

Kessale (talk) 15:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I wonder if not some of the material in this article should go into the Antipatris-article? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 03:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Majdal Yaba Map[edit]

Omar Damoni asked for permission to use photos I uploaded to palestineremembered.com majdal yaba site.

In fact I am only the author of the map titled the Majdal Yaba suberbs, other photos came from different websites.

You have my permission to use the map in what so ever way needed

Kessale (talk) 15:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the permission! I think its better that you upload it since you are Khaled es Sela and are now a wikipedia user. Here's where you upload an image Wikipedia:Upload

Glad to have you on board! --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Schölch, 1986,[edit]

Great work, Al Almeer son! just one small note: the "Schölch, 1986" that is quoted by Khalidi (1992) is NOT the same as the Schölch, 1993, which is listed in the bibliography (as, of course, the Schölch, 1993 wasn´t published when "All that remains" was published.) Btw, I have the Schölch, 1993 book (it is great! lots and lots of information...a great shame that Schölch died as early and young as he did)..If anyone need inf. from that book, just ask. (Majdal Yaba is mentioned on p. 184, 227, 292, I´ll try to add relevant inf., but it is getting late here..) cheers. Huldra (talk) 02:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had a feeling they were different books because the page numbers given in Khalidi did not match that on the snippet view on google books. I'm glad you have the book because I need some info for Deir Istiya in the Ottoman era. Anyway, if you find any referencing mistakes I made in the article now, please correct them. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The book that Khalidi refers to is:

  • Schölch, Alexander (1986): Palastina im Umbruch 1856-1882. Wiesbaden and Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag.

....the 1993 Schölch book is actually the English translation of the (original German) 1986 book. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 03:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Editing and Uploading help needed[edit]

I've just added new info during the period of Baibars, however, I would appreciate to receive help on how to upload pics (Kessale (talk) 09:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Hi Kessale. Thanks for your contributions. For information on how to upload pictures, see WP:Upload. Its best to upload pictures to Wiki Commons (a related wiki site that holds pics for all wikis). Its a bit complicated when the work is not your own. If you are uploading your own photos, its very easy. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask me or someone there for help. Good luck and welcome to wikipedia. Tiamuttalk 09:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Sheikhs Tomb[edit]

In our traditions, elders always refer to this tomb as Baraziddin Tomb, which is believed to be of a weli's tomb from the Saladin Era, while it's named here as Sheikh Muhammad Al-Sadiq Tomb,

I have a copy of a british map dated back to 1929 which shows the name as "Ash Sh Buraz ad Din", however I didn't find any reference to a tomb in the notes written by [James Finn] who visited the site Nov 7th, 1850, neither by Morris. Murphy-O'Connor names it domed tomb of a Muslim Saint (weli)

I guess the name at the map and that of Murphy came from the local traditions, however I am trying to search it out. Appreciate any help Kessale (talk) 10:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC).[reply]

  • "4km east of Jaffa" should be "40km east of Jaffa"? I didn't measure it so I didn't change it. Zerotalk 13:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The map drawn in 1878 for the Survey of Western Palestine shows "Sheikh Baraz ed Din" just to the north of the village, and between that and the village there are some little dots labelled "Tombs". The survey text Vol II p286 says: "Mejdel Yaba—A large and important village, evidently an ancient site, having ancient tombs and remains of a church. It stands on high ground above the plain, and contains a house or palace of large size for the Sheikh ; it was the seat of a famous family who ruled the neighbourhood. (See Section C.) The water supply is from wells and cisterns." Same volume p360-361: "Mejdel Yaba—The house of the Sheikh at this place is so built that one wall is against the wall of a building, possibly a church; this is used as a stable, and is of massive masonry, with a side door surmounted with a lintel bearing the inscription : MAPTYPION TOY AΓIOY KΗPYKOY. 'The Memorial (Church) of Saint Cerycus.' Over the lintel is a semicircular arch with a keystone (a sketch is given in Finn's 'Byeways of Palestine,' p. 130, but the arch is there shown as pointed). The inscription is on a winged tablet; the door is to the right on entering the house, and the arch faces eastward ; the letters are about 4 inches long. The doorway leads into a vault with a barrel roof, and the arch over it inside is slightly pointed. The lintel is probably not in situ, but must have belonged to a church, probably of Byzantine period. A little further north are fragments of a building, which appear to be Crusading. At Sheikh Baraz ed Din there are several rough tombs and caves, one cemented. There is also a tomb of the kind called 'rock-sunk,' with a vault about 6 feet deep, and two unusually broad side loculi; thus, once more, the 'rock-sunk tomb' appears in connection with Christian ruins. Visited 28th May, 1873." Zerotalk 13:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Petersen, 2002, (see ref in article ) writes about the tomb (this tomb: [1]..there are several pictures of it on commons, and it matches with a picture, p. 214, in Petersen) that it is called "Maqam Shayk Baraz al-Din", and say it was built in the nineteenth century for one of the leaders of the Rayyan family. He gives several references to Majdal Yaba, including:

  • le Strange, Guy (1890), Palestine Under the Moslems: A Description of Syria and the Holy Land from A.D. 650 to 1500, Committee of the Palestine Exploration Fund, London, (p.56, p.498 )

Also, the Finn-reference mentioned in SWP is:

Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:56, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • In another opinion, those places "called weli tombs" were built in high areas all over the Palestine to serve as watch and signaling positions during Ayyubide time, any references to support of negate such propositions? Kessale (talk) 17:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the name[edit]

It is called Majdal Sadiq in the 1922 census report, so I'm not sure that the information on name change is accurate. Zerotalk 11:01, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Petersen, 2002, p. 214 writes that: "In the mid century the village acquired the alternative name of Majdal al-Saddiq after al-Saddiq, head of the Rayyan family at the time." Same story as in Abu Ghosh? And interestingly, I just came across a "tidbit" about the same(?) al-Saddiq in this book:
On p.27 is mentioned a "Sheikh Sadik of Medgdel" who was governor of Nablus -for a few days- during troublesome times in 1841. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks again Huldra for the valuable links, at page 37 of this same book it is also mentioned that Sadik el Mustafa of the Rayan family was expelled to Trebizond on 1851, this agrees with Dr Eli Smith when he revisited the village in April 1852 and relates that Sheikh al-Sadiq, had been banished by the Ottomans Kessale (talk) 17:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Abandoned in the 13th century?[edit]

Source cited for this is Pringle [2]. But re-reading it, I think its referring to the castle fort and not the village itself. Also, Pringle says it is was rebuilt in the 18th and 19th centuries (again, I believe, referrring to the fort, since the village appears in the 16th century Ottoman census, indicating it was inhabited at that time). I'm going to research some more the period of Mamluk rule and see if anything comes up. Should I tag it "dubious" for now, or simply remove it? Tiamuttalk 17:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like the whole paragraph in Pringle is referring to the castle. Zerotalk 08:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's the impression I got as well. I'll rephrase accordingly then. Tiamuttalk 08:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 16th century Ottoman census was done in 1596 CE, paid taxes were for a population consisting of 8 Muslim families (44 tax payers), I guess those were who lived in the nearby Biñar-baši rebuilt on 1573 CE. In April 1843, Rev. Dr. Eli Smith visited Majdal Yaba village with Rev. S. H. Calhoun and found The fortress in the village was in ruins, however the village has some houses [3], page 487. Kessale (talk) 22:24, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Jacotin map drawn during the 1799 French invasion shows this village as Megdeh. It also appears in this list of place names recorded during that expedition. Almost certainly there will be a description of it somewhere in the literature produced at that time. Who is going to find it :)? Zerotalk 06:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Migdal Afek sure needs work! Zerotalk 06:50, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for this pit of info Zero, I found the Jacotin map together with a very large collection of maps at the David Rumsey Historical Map Collection website[4] Kessale (talk) 19:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here is some literature related to 1799 French invasion. A breif description of Gen. Damas encounter with the peasants is at pages 69. at pages 75 and 76, footnotes 1 and 6 there is a mention of nahar-el-ougeh, I believe this is the farthest the frensh were able to go closer to Majdal Yaba, and I believe the peasents who attacked the french and the mountains inhabited by the Naplousians mentioned here are those of Majdal Yaba, and it seams to me this is the reason why even the name of the village was not mentioned at this literature and it was name Megdeh at the map [5] Kessale (talk) 23:52, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same story appears here however the General's name here is Lannes who this time pursued a troop of mountaineers into passes of Naplouse it mentions the Turks firing from behind rocks and down precipices. From the narration, and the techniques used against the Franks, this supports my theory that the inhabitants on Majdel Yaba at that time were not villagers but trained Turkish soldiers [6] page 175

Kessale (talk) 00:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King Saul & The River[edit]

I am trying to search out the name of the river mentioned in the Old testement (Judges vii. 5-7) and the Qur'an (Sura AlBaqara 251)

Saul tested his people at a river; whoever drank from it, would not follow him in battle. Many drunk but only the faithful ventured on. In the battle, however, David slew Goliath and was made the subsequent King of Israel. The Qur'anic account differs slightly from the Biblical account in that the sacred ark was recaptured in the Bible before Saul's accession and the test by drinking water is made in the Bible not by Saul but by Gideon ages before Saul

I read in many articles it's the river Jordan, but I have reasons to believe it was Yarkon River

Any thing to support or negate this hypothisis would be hightly appreciated Kessale (talk) 02:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Judges 7:5–7 mentions Gideon, not Saul, and does not speak of the Yarkon River or of the Jordan River - it refers to the Spring of Harod. I'm not familiar with the Qur'an's version. Can you provide an online link?--Sreifa (talk) 05:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sreifa, is there are physical proof on the ground that the biblical narration and not the Quranic one Islamic_views_on_David is the accurate one? Kessale (talk) 14:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The bible predates the Qur'an? Like I said, I'm not familiar with Qur'anic tradition. As far as I know, there is no Archaeological evidence, if that's what you mean. Not sure how this is relevant to Majdal Yaba? --Sreifa (talk) 17:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(Maybe move this to your talk page, Kessale, we aren't supposed to use talk pages for anything except discussing the article.) There is no physical evidence that Saul existed and only a few words on a stone that may (or may not) suggest that David existed. So don't expect any evidence of specific events. Zerotalk 17:09, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Zero for your guidance however this has to do with this part of the article "The Philistine army assembled in Aphek for two major battles against the Israelites, including the slaughter of Saul and Jonathan on Mount Gilboa and the capture of the Ark of the Covenant (1066 BCE) (1 Samuel 4:1-12)" I am trying to search this out historically and Archaelogically, and if the river mentioned has to do with Yarkon river which itself on Majdal Yaba lands, cheers Kessale (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You need to remember that "gathering for a battle" or marching leaves little archaeological evidence. Why do you think it was the Yarkon (out of my league, but curious) --Sreifa (talk) 14:09, 24 June 2011 (UTC) Sreifa I have many reason.[reply]

1- This paragraph "According to biblical tradition, the Israelites under Joshua conquered the city from the Canaanites who had established a monumental palace there. With the Philistines advancing toward the city, the Israelites fled towards the hills of Samaria, and Aphek became the northernmost locality in Philistia" ,and

2- This article "Nahr al 'Auja ... this is a river, running some twelve miles from Ar Ramla towards the north, It rises from springs in the mountains in the neighbourhood of Nabulus, and falls into the sea between Arsuf and Yafa" .. Al 'Auja is the name of a river running between Arsuf and Ar Ramlah ... The source of the river is under Jabal al Khalil, opposite the ruined caslte of Majdaliyabah" le Strange, Guy (1890), Palestine Under the Moslems: A Description of Syria and the Holy Land from A.D. 650 to 1500, Committee of the Palestine Exploration Fund, London, (p.55-56), and

3- The Bible mentions a spring, the Quran mentions a river

If the Israelites fled towards the hills of Samaria east and northeast of Aphek, and Aphek became the northernmost locality in Philistia, then I would like to suggest that the Israelites attacked the Philistians from the east and the north and there is no other river in Philistia which runs from south to north then to west other than the Yarkon

My Hypothisis is that there might have been two water tests, one by Judge Gideon as mentioned in the Bible and another by a prophet during King Saul's time as mentioned by the Quran. Still searching, Kessale (talk) 13:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

interesting... you should know that most of the rivers that make their way to the Mediterranean south of Mount Carmel veer north before emptying into the sea. This is because the sands on the coast originate in the Nile, with currents washing them north along the east of the Med. basin. Sand buildup caused ridges to form along the coast, higher in the south and lower as you progress northward. So rivers usually veer north before finding an outlet to the sea.--Sreifa (talk) 16:56, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyrighted or not copyrighted[edit]

What would a 65 years old image of a distroyed village - Which appeared in an"out of print" book - be considered? a copyrighted material, a derivative of another work that is possibly subject to copyright protection, a Photograph of buildings and artworks in public spaces? the image is back dated to mandate Palestine, ie pre 1948, and Israel have a full freedom of panorama status?

note: The book auther says the photos were reproduced by courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority [[7]] Kessale (talk) 22:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding [8] at page 23 of the same book the following is mentioned: Photographs from the Mandate Period (i.e. pre-1948) have been reproduced by courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority Gazetteer of Buildings in Muslim Palestine hope this would be enough. I wrote on the talk page of User:Smooth_O explaining the same and hoping for a reply, as I am not sure which License applies and after reading [9] I guess the following are the most applicable ones

and

Kessale (talk) 23:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Change to photo captions[edit]

I have removed the two photo captions referring to Operation tooth for tooth (also Operation Magician) because I have found another photo mentioning this operation (Harel 4th Vol 5 album 1/1) which adds "not executed". Which explains why I couldn't trace any reference to it in other sources.Padres Hana (talk) 23:16, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Add a photograph[edit]

Hello. As I am not allowed to modify this page (less than 500 edits), I propose to add this image of Majdal Yaba, to the 1948 War and Aftermath section. Here is the image:

HumanoidHuman (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mirabel and Antipatris not the same[edit]

Antipatris is at the springs of the Yarkon River, Mirabel on a hill east of it, a few km apart. See for instance

Arminden (talk) 03:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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